When did Toronto pass Montreal?

[JManc]

Originally Posted by Razor

Slightly before my time, Montreal hosted the successful 67 Expo and they were awarded a MLB team before 9 years before Toronto. As a kid growing up in the 70's, the Habs dominated the decade in NHL and Montreal hosted the 76 Olympics. The one where Nadia got all her perfect 10's. Montreal was definitely the face of Canada then, and was shining. So ya, it was about 76 that the process started due largely to the separatist movement. There was a saying that people could see all the Brinks trucks leaving Montreal to go to Toronto,Montreal is stil lthe primate city for Francophone Canada, but it used to be the primate city for all of Canada..I can't really think of another country where this power shift happened in the last 50 years or so.. Australia?..Brazil?

I grew up in Upstate NY and equidistant to both Montreal and Toronto and Montreal always seemed to loom larger when I was a kid in the 80's and it wasn't until the 90's that Toronto seemed to take off.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by JManc

I grew up in Upstate NY and equidistant to both Montreal and Toronto and Montreal always seemed to loom larger when I was a kid in the 80's and it wasn't until the 90's that Toronto seemed to take off.

Also, I think we have to define what were discussing re. "surpass". Montreal is (probably) a bigger leisure destination for Americans right now. Obviously the cultural differences and historical charm present a more unique draw. Banks, wealth, growth, immigrants and condo towers have little to do with whether a city is an enticing weekend destination.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by yuriandrade

Montreal-Toronto and Rio de Janeiro-São Paulo are the two most dramatic leading city shifts in history.

Perhaps also Berlin-Frankfurt and Rome-Milan? And as with Rio-SP, the legacy city is still far more prominent globally and for leisure travelers.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Also, I think we have to define what were discussing re. "surpass". Montreal is (probably) a bigger leisure destination for Americans right now. Obviously the cultural differences and historical charm present a more unique draw. Banks, wealth, growth, immigrants and condo towers have little to do with whether a city is an enticing weekend destination.

I'm not talking about one city surpassing the other in size or importance but Toronto's rise in prominence has made it a major travel/ tourist destination. I don't recall Toronto being a weekend destination and an alternative to New York like it is now when I was a kid. Montreal was always was where the 'action' was. By the 90's, people were going Toronto to shop, watch a show and do whatever they do when they spend the weekend in NY, Boston or Chicago.

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Perhaps also Berlin-Frankfurt and Rome-Milan? And as with Rio-SP, the legacy city is still far more prominent globally and for leisure travelers.

Brazil is a continental country and as such, has relatively low exchanges with abroad. International tourism is very weak in Brazil and therefore completely irrelevant to this subject. We are talking about dynamics inside a 2 trillion dollar economy, and things like international tourism are negligible.

All domestic and international HQs are now all in São Paulo, Rio de Janeiro stock exchange no longer exists, SP airports handle as much as 3x more passengers and even in culture, the last field Rio had an edge, it seems even there São Paulo will eventually take it away.

Aside broader patterns that made São Paulo’s rise unstoppable, Rio de Janeiro politics are a real nightmare, which accelerated even further its decline.

[samne]

Melbourne and Sydney....whos got the edge nowadays?

[ThePhun1]

Originally Posted by yuriandrade

Montreal-Toronto and Rio de Janeiro-São Paulo are the two most dramatic leading city shifts in history.

Coincidentally, they took place on the same time (1970’s), and there were also those same patterns where the former leading city will be losing its primacy on every single field till nothing has left. And by now, both São Paulo and Toronto reign completely alone.

Rio still has Sao Paulo on culture.

[Acajack]

Brazil does not have anything like a nation within the nation that is Quebec/French Canada.

For the most part Toronto and Montréal do not intrude on each other's turf.

[tayser]

Originally Posted by Razor

Slightly before my time, Montreal hosted the successful 67 Expo and they were awarded a MLB team maybe 9 years before Toronto. As a kid growing up in the 70's, the Habs dominated the decade in NHL, and Montreal hosted the 76 Olympics. The one where Nadia got all her perfect 10's! Montreal was definitely the face of Canada then, and was shining. So ya, it was about 76 that the process started due largely to the separatist movement. There was a saying that people could see all the Brinks trucks leaving Montreal to go to Toronto. Montreal is still the primate city for Francophone Canada, but it used to be the primate city for all of Canada..OH, I can't really think of another similar situation in another country where this power shift happened in the last 50 years or so.. Australia?..Brazil?

It could be about to happen in Australia in the next decade... well according to ABS predictions.

Port Jackson/Sydney colony: 1788
Melbourne founded: 1835
Victorian Gold Rushes: 1850-1860 - Melbourne's population overtakes Sydney
Federation and post rush depression in Victoria: (1890s up to Federation 1901): Sydney overtakes Melbourne in population but politically Melbourne is at the heart of the new country.
Canberra founded, national capital officially moves: 1927
National politics/media/cultural institutes still very much centred on Melbourne until the 60s (hell our main spy agency didn't really move to Canberra until the 80s!)
Sydney pretty much the international finance centre (Melbourne has a very large presence with domestic banks HQs and superannuation/funds management) adn the international tourist gateway. But that's been chipped away slowly over 10 years. Melbourne airport international arrivals data now proportional to Vic population / punching above weight compared to severely underweight ever since Sydney airport/airfield was built a century ago.
Both metro areas (GCSSAs) are now over 5 mil and Melbourne growing on average 20-30k more than Sydney for over a decade...

Long-ish read on the upcoming Melbourne century: https://www.theage.com.au/national/v...28-p53f29.html

[softee]

Originally Posted by GreaterMontréal

Montréal always functioned as a city/island of 2 million , Toronto is now larger by a large margin since the merger. Its metro area is also 50% larger.

Toronto functioned as a city & 5 borough municipality of 630 sq km ever since the creation of the "Metro" regional municipality in the early 1950s. The amalgamation in 1998 merely eliminated a layer of government as a cost cutting measure. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Toronto

[softee]

The persistent myth seems to be that Montreal was far and away Canada's dominant city in all aspects while Toronto was a dull little backwater until it suddenly blossomed into a real city in the 1970s, but the reality is that Toronto was right at Montreal's heels throughout the first 70 years of the 20th century not only in metropolitan population but as well as in things like finance, publishing, literature, music, and overall cultural influence on Canada as a whole. By the late 1960s Toronto was more prominent than Montreal in many areas and through the 70s-80s they were pretty much equals (in terms of "influence") until Toronto pulled ahead in the 90s and has been increasing the gap ever since.

[Nite]

Originally Posted by yuriandrade

Montreal-Toronto and Rio de Janeiro-São Paulo are the two most dramatic leading city shifts in history.

Coincidentally, they took place on the same time (1970’s), and there were also those same patterns where the former leading city will be losing its primacy on every single field till nothing has left. And by now, both São Paulo and Toronto reign completely alone.

what about Melbourne v Sydney or Rome v Milan

[Mister F]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Montreal is (probably) a bigger leisure destination for Americans right now.

Toronto attracts 43 million visitors per year. Of 15.5 million overnight visitors, 3 million are from the United States and 2.1 million are from overseas.

Montreal attracts 22 million visitors per year, 10 million of them overnight. 1.8 million are international.

[ThePhun1]

Originally Posted by Nite

what about Melbourne v Sydney or Rome v Milan

Or Los Angeles/San Francisco

[ssiguy]

Originally Posted by samne

Melbourne and Sydney....whos got the edge nowadays?

Melbourne and Sydney are not really an apt comparison. They, like Montreal and Toronto, were roughly the same size but unlike Tor/Mon there has never been an a wholesale exodus from one to the other. Although Melbourne continues to close the gap and within 5 years will overtake Sydney, there will never be a very significant size or importance difference between the 2. Also there is a distinct possibility that Sydney will eventually overtake Melbourne but whether it does or not, I don't think Australia will ever have one truly dominant city.

In Canada, that question is no longer valid as the obvious answer {including by 90% of Montrealers} is Toronto. In Canada and internationally the decision has been made, Toronto is and now always will be Canada's most important city and Montreal it's number 2 and in 100 years that will still be the case. In relation to Toronto and Montreal, the other major metros of Vancouver, Calgary, Ottawa, and Edmonton will always be varying degrees off also-rans.

[Minato Ku]

Toronto opened its subway twelve years before Montreal.
So, the idea that Toronto was backwater and Montreal was everything needs to be reviewed.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Mister F

Toronto attracts 43 million visitors per year. Of 15.5 million overnight visitors, 3 million are from the United States and 2.1 million are from overseas.

Montreal attracts 22 million visitors per year, 10 million of them overnight. 1.8 million are international.

Re-read my post.

Toronto obviously has far more visitors, given it's a much bigger city with far more businesses and immigrants. But it isn't a bigger tourist center.

I've probably traveled to Toronto 25-30 times for business, and maybe a dozen times for family/relatives. Never traveled to Montreal for either. But I know plenty more people vacationing in Montreal from NYC, because it's different. Toronto doesn't feel appreciably different from an American city.

[tayser]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Melbourne and Sydney are not really an apt comparison. They, like Montreal and Toronto, were roughly the same size but unlike Tor/Mon there has never been an a wholesale exodus from one to the other. Although Melbourne continues to close the gap and within 5 years will overtake Sydney, there will never be a very significant size or importance difference between the 2. Also there is a distinct possibility that Sydney will eventually overtake Melbourne but whether it does or not, I don't think Australia will ever have one truly dominant city.

Pretty much.

Yet, if it weren't for a few Melbourne leaders in the 70s and 80s who couldn't fathom Sydney dominating who have in turn conjured and nurtured a fightback spirit over the decades... we'd probably have a T'ronno/Muntreeawl situation on our hands.

[Mister F]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Re-read my post.

Toronto obviously has far more visitors, given it's a much bigger city with far more businesses and immigrants. But it isn't a bigger tourist center.

I've probably traveled to Toronto 25-30 times for business, and maybe a dozen times for family/relatives. Never traveled to Montreal for either. But I know plenty more people vacationing in Montreal from NYC, because it's different. Toronto doesn't feel appreciably different from an American city.

Got any numbers to prove that? Personal anecdotes and your personal opinion are meaningless.

[Shawn]

Originally Posted by JManc

I grew up in Upstate NY and equidistant to both Montreal and Toronto and Montreal always seemed to loom larger when I was a kid in the 80's and it wasn't until the 90's that Toronto seemed to take off.

For many of us New Englanders, Montreal is still the primary Canadian city. People are vaguely aware that Toronto is now bigger and "more important" (the Raptors' profile helped a lot), but the ties between New England and Montreal are too deep to have Toronto replace Montreal as top of mind for Canada anytime soon.

Maybe around Burlington - even though it's so close to Montreal - people view Toronto as the big boy? I imagine they're more informed, given they're a lot closer to either city than metro Boston is.