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  #221  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2020, 8:27 PM
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Maldive Maldive is offline
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Cityplace, known as "Shittyplace" to the few who haunt these forums, is a big black-eye for sure (some exceptions like the school/community centre wrapping up) and a couple of decent highrises).

Our beloved planning dept/city council are now debating a green light on Google/Sidewalk labs "future (data grab) vision on the east waterfront.

Dear Sidewalk what are your build creds? Nutin'

This is what happens when tired planners want to home for a decent meal.
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  #222  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2020, 8:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kool maudit View Post
1920: "We need a lot of apartments, the city is growing very quickly!"



2010: "We need a lot of apartments, the city is growing very quickly!"








Bit unfortunate really.
The second pic reminds me of a modern, glass version of Le Corbusier's Towers-in-a-Park. Today's planners put too much of an emphasis on parkland contributions and privately-owned public space. The second pic would be so much better sans all the green. The community services that are really needed is a decent grocery store and neighborhood pub.
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  #223  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2020, 8:56 PM
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Exactly. I am becoming more anti "greenspace" every single day it seems. But this is what I keep hearing from people, "our/this community needs more green space!" Yeah, well...a patch of grass doesn't do much for that urge. It only creates less connectivity in the neighborhood and deadens streetlife.

Now, quality small parks with trees and benches and playground equipment etc, awesome. I think we actually need much more of these types.

Here is a small park I love down the street from me. It provides trees, benches, a small playground, and even a small dog park area.

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8624...7i16384!8i8192

Compare that to this park in suburban Dallas:

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.1778...7i16384!8i8192
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  #224  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2020, 9:11 PM
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Green space is treated by planners more as a box that gets ticked off to appease NIMBYs than any actual desire for usable park land.
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  #225  
Old Posted Mar 8, 2020, 6:07 PM
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Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
People have been warning about the impending Toronto real estate bubble since I joined SSP 12 years ago. While it's rightfully something that needs to be carefully watched/managed a high level of construction doesn't necessarily mean that a bubble exists.
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People have been predicting that the Toronto market would crash for the last 15 years but it still going strong. When i hear such predictions I assume they are made by people who don't know that the GTA has a greenbelt and can not sprawl anymore so growth most be vertical
.

Just to clarify, a bit late, I know, but when I say "bubble," I don't necessarily mean a real estate bubble. I think red hot real estate markets are often indicators of an overall economic bubble. I suspect that bubble is bursting as we speak.
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  #226  
Old Posted Jul 1, 2021, 5:37 PM
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Originally Posted by C. View Post
The second pic reminds me of a modern, glass version of Le Corbusier's Towers-in-a-Park. Today's planners put too much of an emphasis on parkland contributions and privately-owned public space. The second pic would be so much better sans all the green. The community services that are really needed is a decent grocery store and neighborhood pub.
I don't think it's fair to say these are akin to a tower in park.

Le Corbusier would never dare to produce anything this walkable. Looks like there literally is a tavern right here.

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.6402...7i16384!8i8192


And those New York apartments are far from perfect. Look how tiny those windows are and made even smaller by all those AC units since these buildings lack central air. The street level of these apartments are also far from inviting for pedestrians.

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7882...7i16384!8i8192

Aesthetically, the New York stuff looks way more traditionally urban. But is it really better for people? I'm not totally sure.
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  #227  
Old Posted Jul 1, 2021, 5:45 PM
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Montreal-Toronto and Rio de Janeiro-São Paulo are the two most dramatic leading city shifts in history.
An older but equally dramatic flip: St. Petersburg to Moscow.

Before the Revolution, St. Petersburg ruled supreme in Russia. Cultural, economic, population, foreign ties, and of course the crown itself. Moscow was seen as an economic backwater with historic/cultural appeal, still big but not the juggernaut of St. Petersburg.

The Revolution ushering in a central-planning government hyperfocused on Moscow, Stalin's suspicion of Leningrad, then the horrid blow of World War II, Leningrad being too close to the border, then the post-1991 new rich continuing to concentrate Russia's wealth on Moscow...

Now, Moscow and St. Petersburg have completely flipped their roles from 1913. One is the juggernaut, the other is a historical trinket...
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  #228  
Old Posted Jul 1, 2021, 9:58 PM
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Originally Posted by The North One View Post
I don't think it's fair to say these are akin to a tower in park.

Le Corbusier would never dare to produce anything this walkable. Looks like there literally is a tavern right here.

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.6402...7i16384!8i8192


And those New York apartments are far from perfect. Look how tiny those windows are and made even smaller by all those AC units since these buildings lack central air. The street level of these apartments are also far from inviting for pedestrians.

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7882...7i16384!8i8192

Aesthetically, the New York stuff looks way more traditionally urban. But is it really better for people? I'm not totally sure.
I think the big difference with the Toronto example is it is one big project while the New York example is multiple projects. Masterplanned community vs. organic growth, and I always prefer the latter, it is a very different feeling, maybe more than just aesthetics.

The big projects can feel too monolithic, the master-plan can overshadow everything else, and so the buildings or the storefronts don't stand out as much, while there is more individuality with smaller or single projects.

But in terms of urbanity, the Toronto example has street level retail and patios while the New York example doesn't have much going on. But the New York example is not the main street either. That's just a side street, next to Broadway, so not really a fair example either.

But I agree sometimes the newer stuff gets criticized too much, and I notice it's always the most urban of the new neighbourhoods that bear the brunt of the criticism. People don't complain about Milton or Vellore Village nearly as much as they do about Cityplace or Mississauga City Centre.

Last edited by Steely Dan; Jul 6, 2021 at 12:02 AM.
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  #229  
Old Posted Jul 1, 2021, 11:01 PM
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  #230  
Old Posted Jul 1, 2021, 11:26 PM
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The real question though is when will Toronto surpass Jacksonville.
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  #231  
Old Posted Jul 13, 2021, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The North One View Post
I don't think it's fair to say these are akin to a tower in park.

Le Corbusier would never dare to produce anything this walkable. Looks like there literally is a tavern right here.

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.6402...7i16384!8i8192


And those New York apartments are far from perfect. Look how tiny those windows are and made even smaller by all those AC units since these buildings lack central air. The street level of these apartments are also far from inviting for pedestrians.

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7882...7i16384!8i8192

Aesthetically, the New York stuff looks way more traditionally urban. But is it really better for people? I'm not totally sure.
Good points. City Place in Toronto isn't my cup of tea but my criticism is more with the architecture than how things are laid out. A sea of monotonous grey glass condos depresses the hell out of me but at street level it's actually quite pleasant. The area is pedestrian focused with amenities lining wide sidewalks and lots of greenery separating you from the cars. It speaks volumes that there are usually a horde of people on the sidewalk. People want to be there and there's a reason to be there.

Would City Place get as much flack if the building architecture was 1920s? The problem is the architecture, not urban planning.
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  #232  
Old Posted Jul 13, 2021, 11:33 AM
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Regarding top cities losing their perch, didn't Melbourne nip Sydney this year according to some estimates? Perhaps in 50 years people will find it hard to believe that Sydney was ever Australia's largest city. How long will Toronto stay Canada's largest city? 100 years? 150 years? 200 years? It will, at least, stay #1 for the remainder of this century. It has too big of a lead on the rest.
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  #233  
Old Posted Jul 13, 2021, 3:44 PM
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Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
Regarding top cities losing their perch, didn't Melbourne nip Sydney this year according to some estimates? Perhaps in 50 years people will find it hard to believe that Sydney was ever Australia's largest city.
Or maybe not. I think in Australia there is a better chance of the two cities flipping the top spot again, and then again, and again.
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  #234  
Old Posted Jul 13, 2021, 8:08 PM
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Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
Regarding top cities losing their perch, didn't Melbourne nip Sydney this year according to some estimates? Perhaps in 50 years people will find it hard to believe that Sydney was ever Australia's largest city. How long will Toronto stay Canada's largest city? 100 years? 150 years? 200 years? It will, at least, stay #1 for the remainder of this century. It has too big of a lead on the rest.
I agree with this..I would even go as far as saying that Canada's 3 largest cities are set in stone for the long term. There's almost a 2 million (+/-) spread between all 3. Sydney and Melbourne are a lot closer in size to each other, but hey stranger things have happened (LA/Chicago?)
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  #235  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2022, 1:46 AM
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Toronto's stock market surpassed Montreal's in the 1940s. The opening of the St. Lawrence Seaway in 1959 also benefitted Toronto and reduced Montreal's importance as a shipping center. The stranglehold the Catholic Church had on Quebec until the 1960s also set back economic development. Montreal and Toronto were basically tied in population by the mid-1970s, so the "Parti Quebecois got elected" line is overstated IMO.
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  #236  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2022, 11:23 PM
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Toronto's stock market surpassed Montreal's in the 1940s. The opening of the St. Lawrence Seaway in 1959 also benefitted Toronto and reduced Montreal's importance as a shipping center. The stranglehold the Catholic Church had on Quebec until the 1960s also set back economic development. Montreal and Toronto were basically tied in population by the mid-1970s, so the "Parti Quebecois got elected" line is overstated IMO.
The decay of Montreal was obvious in the 1980s and 1990s. Only when the separatist threat declined rapidly afterwards, did Montreal recover. The separatist threat had originally appeared in the early 1960s with the FLQ and this corresponded with the period when Toronto quickly moved towards surpassing Montreal. Toronto would have surpassed Montreal anyways for other reasons, but the separatist cause accelerated the process.
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  #237  
Old Posted Feb 26, 2022, 3:03 AM
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Toronto would have surpassed Montreal anyways for other reasons, but the separatist cause accelerated the process.
I've seen this sentiment of the inevitability of Toronto ascension one way or another expressed many times in this thread, but isn't there another roll of the cosmic dice where Montreal takes a decidedly more anglo turn in the past and just continues perpetually growing as Canada's definitive alpha with the main Atlantic seaport? An alternate timeline where the Montreal to Toronto size imbalance is more similar to the New York to Chicago one?
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Last edited by Steely Dan; Feb 26, 2022 at 3:17 PM.
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  #238  
Old Posted Feb 26, 2022, 4:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
I've seen this sentiment of the inevitability of Toronto ascension one way or another expressed many times in this thread, but isn't there another roll of the cosmic dice where Montreal takes a decidedly more anglo turn in the past and just continues perpetually growing as Canada's definitive alpha with the main Atlantic seaport? A timeline where the Montreal to Toronto size imbalance is more similar to the New York to Chicago one?
I'm not sure what you are getting at. Wiki states that the city of Montreal is 1.7 million versus 2.7 million for Toronto in 2020 and the metros are 4.2 million for Montreal vs 6.2 million for Toronto. So, the imbalance is less than NYC and Chicago. I think what really is different is that the cities/metros are very distinct, and became even more so, compared to the major US big cities. It was to Montreal's 'disadvantage' so to speak because most of developed North America is Anglo (and now much is increasingly Spanish) not French, so Montreal was 'limited' to a degree in North America from a cultural/business standpoint. It makes sense the shift would have happened anyway but the Quebecose accelerated the shift. But I am glad that Montreal appears to be revived and growing again.
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  #239  
Old Posted Feb 26, 2022, 3:20 PM
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I was taking "alternate universe" kinda stuff, one where Montreal stopped being so decidedly "french" for whatever reason and naturally grew into being the NYC of Canada, the unchallenged alpha dog.
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  #240  
Old Posted Feb 26, 2022, 8:41 PM
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^ Are we talking about Montreal being a bicultural/bilingual city that sort of functions as both the NYC of Canada and Paris of North America?

Or does it become no more French than New Orleans and basically Toronto with more "Northeast Corridor" characteristics?
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