Rail revival dream won’t die - langley/surrey

[Nutterbug]

I think Skytrain should be extended to Newton. From there, BRT's can branch the passengers out southbound towards White Rock and eastbound towards Cloverdale/Langley. Preferably at a junction with the Southern Railway line, which can one day run a commuter rail line to Abbotsford/Chilliwack.

[officedweller]

From the Surrey Leader:

City rail revival could cost less, say backers

By Jeff Nagel
Black Press
Dec 27 2006


Consultants for the City of Surrey say a community light rail transit line could be launched here for a fraction of the cost estimated by TransLink.

The service, running from the Scott Road SkyTrain station to Cloverdale, would cost $110 million to $150 million in startup capital costs, according to a study by consultants UMA Engineering Ltd.

The work is being embraced by fans of a possible revival of the old interurban rail line, which linked Vancouver to Chilliwack up until the 1950s.

TransLink released its own study earlier this month, estimating a longer 27-kilometre line to downtown Langley would cost $360 million to $700 million, depending on whether heavy rail with fewer stations or light rail with more stations was used.

TransLink’s consultants flagged a long list of challenges that could inflate costs or kill the project. They concluded the whole line must be double tracked to keep passengers and freight separate and added an extra 30 per cent for contingencies.

“As long as you make the route from Scott Road only to Cloverdale you have contained the costs enormously,” said Surrey Board of Trade executive director Peter Holt, one of the proponents.

But a city analysis of both studies concludes pursuing the community rail project is risky and would cost the city $100,000 to hire a consultant to design the system, line up partners and lobby for funding.

Engineering general manager Paul Ham, in a report to council, says not only are the capital costs well beyond the city’s scope, subsidizing annual operating costs of $5 to $6 million would be a problem.

“While there will be some revenue from fares, this is likely to only cover 20 to 30 per cent of costs,” his report says. “As such, the viability of this project is a concern.”

Ham recommends council shelve the community rail idea – even though it could “potentially jump-start a transit rail system in Surrey” – because of the very high costs, the creation of expectations that may not be achievable and the diversion of money away from projects with better odds of success.

Instead, he says the city should continue to work with the Fraser Valley Heritage Rail Society as it tries to launch a small-scale tourism-oriented heritage rail operation on part of the old interurban route.

Heritage rail could gradually expand to cover the Cloverdale-Scott Road route, Ham said, and “in the more distant future” evolve into a community rail system.

Council on Monday referred the issue to its transportation committee and the heritage advisory commission.

Coun. Bob Bose, who chairs the transportation committee, still favours the community rail option, but says the city must approach it “cautiously” and be prepared to “walk away” if necessary.

“The $100,000 is completely do-able when you compare it to the costs of other programs,” Bose said. “Sometimes you have to stick your neck out a little bit.”

Advocates say the rail revival could also trigger high-density residential redevelopment near the route’s stations.

“I want the community rail because of the way it will strengthen and build and create a focus for redevelopment of the town centres,” Bose added. “It could have a terrific spinoff.”

Coun. Marvin Hunt also favours a passenger rail revival on the old rail corridor.

“Growth is going to continue to happen on the south Fraser,” he said. “So it makes sense that we get those kinds of connections going south of the Fraser.”

The city report says the project could tap grant money as a 2010 Olympic legacy project or as a Hydrogen Highway demonstration project if fuel cell technology is used.

The report notes the line wouldn’t connect to the Surrey City Centre, but would link Cloverdale, Newton, Kennedy and the Scott Road/Bridgeview areas.

[twoNeurons]

Scott Road is 4 minutes by train from Surrey City Centre.

There's been a lot of news recently about Fraser Valley Rail.

I'm not giving my hope up but...

[SpongeG]

what if they took away some of the evergreen's line and gave it to surry if its only going to be $150 million...

[mezzanine]

I really hope we get movement on this - i see a lot of good potential here, even if connecting to only cloverdale, and phasing in langley at a later date. There will be new TOD development at Newton - really, it is a town centre without a focus (the bus loop? the wave pool?), a reasonable connection to surrey city hall/municipal centre/RCMP offices by 64th ave, as well as to the Bell Centre. Sullivan neighbourhood is greatly densifying and cloverdale wants to bring in a connex and revitalize the main street strip.

[CC420]

Ya I would think Cloverdale of all communities would benefit the most out of this. That neighbourhood has seen a lot of developement over the years with few transit upgrades. The conngestion is getting really bad there and must be addressed. What better way than to bring rail back to cloverdale.

[officedweller]

INteresting link I found through the Transportation Forum on Amtrak Cascades.

Check out Appendix E at this link (big download). It discusses a study that would move the northern terminus for Cascades to a new terminal at Scott Road in Surrey.

http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/rail/amtrakp...appendices.pdf

The full Amtrak Cascades long range plan website is here if you are interested:

http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/rail/AC_long_range_plan.cfm

[SpongeG]

that would suck for tourists - especially if they were just doing a day trip up to here

but there is only that one old rail crossing - and it can back train traffic up quite a bit

[officedweller]

The option is spurred by the jam-up at the Fraser River Bridge among other capacity issues. Amtrak wants to run up to 5 trains a day to Vancouver and there isn't the capacity.

Here's the neighbourhood plan for the Scott Road Station area - from the Cascades report:

[SpongeG]

ah - more trains is definately better than - there is only one evening train and its not very functional - cause it only goes to seattle and gets there failry late - it would be nice to get on a train here and be able to get all the way to portland or california without having to overnight in seattle

[officedweller]

And they think the catchment (headed to Seattle) from GVRD would still be good from Surrey.

[SpongeG]

yeah - its close to the skytrain so that would help

currently the train is more of a novelty thing than a viable travel option - i wonder if the plan does go through if they can get it up in time for the olympics

[Nutterbug]

The concern's probably not so much the traffic to Seattle as the traffic from. Locals already know how to take Skytrain, and may actually welcome a suburban location where it's easier/cheaper to park, whereas the Americans may be discouraged by having to transfer onto another mode of transport to get downtown.

They should keep Pacific Central and have another station in Blaine to serve the southern GVRD and northern Whatcom County traffic, with public transit extended to the Peace Arch border crossing to connect with it. (Extend the 321 route eight more bloody blocks south.)

[officedweller]

The Surrey alternative is more of a way for Washington DOT to achieve its goal of 5 trains a day despite inaction/inability by BC/Canada on rail corridor improvements on the BC side.

It also cites slow speeds because of the marshy condition on the route through Burnaby and possible constriction of the ROW from Skytrain columns (preventing double tracking).

[Nutterbug]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

yeah - its close to the skytrain so that would help

currently the train is more of a novelty thing than a viable travel option - i wonder if the plan does go through if they can get it up in time for the olympics

Certainly a far preferable alternative to Greyhound, if you can fit it into your schedule.

[SpongeG]

yeah - my friends and i went to portland last summer and 2 of us drove down and the third was gonna meet us down there - he was weary of driving his brand new car - so we looked into the train and he would have had to stay overnight in seattle before he could meet us in porland - he ended up driving down and meeting us anyway

[twoNeurons]

They will be trains to Surrey and an Amtrack Bus Shuttle to Downtown Vancouver. This is a good thing. It will also be a lot faster (being that BC can't get their act in gear and double-track some areas) if you're getting off in Surrey. If they upgrade the tracks to Vancouver... the landscape changes.

Great for Surrey.

[Nutterbug]

Why take a bus shuttle instead of the Skytrain???

Maybe they should build a Skytrain guideway running right into the Amtrak station for special Skytrains timed with the Amtrak runs.

[twoNeurons]

Because it will be provided by Amtrak... and that way Amtrak provides the true terminus in Vancouver.

Imagine if you were to take a train to Seattle, but it dropped you off in Everett and gave you directions to the LRT. Not good business.

Skytrain isn't run by Amtrak.

Case in Point, you can book a ticket from Vancouver to San Francisco, and it will involve a bus from Vancouver to Seattle (As the night train doesn't sync with the Coast Starlight.)

If anyone's interested, check out page 6 of this PDF:
http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/rail/amtrakp...s/chapter3.pdf

The improvements between Bellingham and Vancouver are supposed to be:
Vancouver <---> Bellingham
today 2008* 2023
1:48 1:39 0:50

(original midpoint... but is now undefined due to funding)

Overall Trip Time:
Vancouver <---> Seattle
today 2008 2023
3:55 3:25 2:37

That goes to show you where the bottleneck is. BC. Overall improvement is supposed to Shave 1:18 off the time from Seattle to Vancouver. Bellingham to Vancouver is 0:58 of that... or 75% of the time savings.

Imagine getting to Downtown Seattle from Downtown Vancouver in 2:37.

A CAR takes 2:34 according to Google Maps(with no Traffic and no border wait...).

If you could pre-check customs at the Vancouver terminus it would be MUCH faster than driving.

[Nutterbug]

Originally Posted by tintinium

Because it will be provided by Amtrak... and that way Amtrak provides the true terminus in Vancouver.

Imagine if you were to take a train to Seattle, but it dropped you off in Everett and gave you directions to the LRT. Not good business.

Skytrain isn't run by Amtrak.

As such, they should build a Skytrain boarding platform within the new Surrey station to facilitate transfer with little difficulty. They are providing such a service for air passengers with the RAV Line running right into the airport terminal, so why not do the same for train passengers?

I assume this new station will be a shared facility with VIA and intercity buses.