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  #81  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2019, 1:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Obadno View Post
Most of the places that lacked habitation only did so because of illness shortly before Europeans actually physically arrived. As depopulated as they were it was never total and it was not very long maybe a few decades.
This isn’t really true. There’s been a movement to exaggerate the level of sophistication of Native American culture in what is now the US (as opposed to the actually more advanced civilizations in present day Mexico) out of some sort of political correctness. And yes, there were more people before Europeans arrived than shorty after. But it’s not like there were thriving cities that just vanished along with their art, literature, infrastructure, etc.
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  #82  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2019, 3:31 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is online now
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Originally Posted by Sun Belt View Post
Plymouth, MA. Europeans were greeted by Indians. Surely those Indians had settlements.
"Greeted" lol
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  #83  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2019, 7:06 PM
jtown,man jtown,man is offline
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I corrected that for you.
Who cares? Mexico controlled parts of the western United States for like two decades so some people in the US think they deserve to "get it back" or something lol
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  #84  
Old Posted Nov 25, 2019, 4:13 PM
Obadno Obadno is online now
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Who cares? Mexico controlled parts of the western United States for like two decades so some people in the US think they deserve to "get it back" or something lol
Not to mention we paid for it.

And then went back and bought Tucson 2 years later.
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  #85  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2019, 3:17 PM
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Originally Posted by 10023 View Post
There’s been a movement to exaggerate the level of sophistication of Native American culture in what is now the US (as opposed to the actually more advanced civilizations in present day Mexico) out of some sort of political correctness. And yes, there were more people before Europeans arrived than shorty after. But it’s not like there were thriving cities that just vanished along with their art, literature, infrastructure, etc.
Depends on what you consider "sophistication."

Petroglyphs and cave paintings, carvings, musical instruments, storytelling, belief systems... these are all proof of a sophisticated capacity for abstract thought and communication, let alone the ability to cooperate, plan, strategize, manipulate and deceive. These people after all were living in and were able to survive for tens of thousands of years in the western hemisphere long before the Europeans arrived; they were obviously doing something right.

In my opinion, there's a sophistication to not wanting or feeling the need for the "advanced technology" of other cultures/civilizations... to keep on doing what works and doesn't destroy. It's arrogant to think they weren't "sophisticated" and somehow didn't live satisfying lives, that somehow exposure to Europe and Jesus is the only way to sophistication.
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  #86  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2019, 3:28 PM
eschaton eschaton is online now
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My impression from reading was that what is now the Eastern U.S. had begun a rapid population explosion shortly before Columbus landed. For a long period of time development of the Eastern Woodlands was hindered because early corn (maize for you Brits) was not cold adapted. Once corn (and beans, and squash) successfully were introduced, there was a pretty rapid expansion of social complexity and settlements during the Mississippian period. This period could be thought of as "pre-civilizational" - with evidence of increasing social stratification, large earthworks, trade networks spanning almost the whole continent, and evidence of a "settlement hierarchy" which was moving towards urbanization, up to and including the construction of early fortifications.

Basically, the Eastern Woodlands just didn't have enough time to develop into an urban civilization. If corn expanded northward a thousand years earlier the Europeans may have found something quite different when they came however.
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  #87  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2019, 3:58 PM
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My impression from reading was that what is now the Eastern U.S. had begun a rapid population explosion shortly before Columbus landed. For a long period of time development of the Eastern Woodlands was hindered because early corn (maize for you Brits) was not cold adapted. Once corn (and beans, and squash) successfully were introduced, there was a pretty rapid expansion of social complexity and settlements during the Mississippian period. This period could be thought of as "pre-civilizational" - with evidence of increasing social stratification, large earthworks, trade networks spanning almost the whole continent, and evidence of a "settlement hierarchy" which was moving towards urbanization, up to and including the construction of early fortifications.

Basically, the Eastern Woodlands just didn't have enough time to develop into an urban civilization. If corn expanded northward a thousand years earlier the Europeans may have found something quite different when they came however.
I'm not sure what book my partner was reading some years ago, but he told me that in that book, he read that when the early English colonists arrived in what we call New England, the native people had already clear-cut large areas for their agriculture, and it wasn't until those populations started being killed or displaced by the early colonists that reforestation started happening... in other words, it seems many people think that when the early English settlers started arriving on the east coast, that they arrived to pristine untouched forests, when in actuality, there were already large areas that were cleared for farming.
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  #88  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2019, 5:23 PM
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Originally Posted by sopas ej View Post
I'm not sure what book my partner was reading some years ago, but he told me that in that book, he read that when the early English colonists arrived in what we call New England, the native people had already clear-cut large areas for their agriculture, and it wasn't until those populations started being killed or displaced by the early colonists that reforestation started happening... in other words, it seems many people think that when the early English settlers started arriving on the east coast, that they arrived to pristine untouched forests, when in actuality, there were already large areas that were cleared for farming.
This is correct.

It's also worth noting that although bison ranged far into the eastern woodlands by the time that English settlers came (there's a reason Buffalo has its name) this seems to have been something that happened relatively recently, as Native Americans thinned out the forest cover and allowed for bison to migrate eastward.
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