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  #2141  
Old Posted Aug 4, 2019, 8:40 PM
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So if the rainbow nation, heirs to mbeki and Mandela, are willing to deploy national guard units to combat homicidal violence, I don’t see why the USA can’t
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  #2142  
Old Posted Aug 4, 2019, 8:44 PM
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Originally Posted by dc_denizen View Post
So if the rainbow nation, heirs to mbeki and Mandela, are willing to deploy national guard units to combat homicidal violence, I don’t see why the USA can’t
This doesn't seem at all ridiculous to you?
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  #2143  
Old Posted Aug 4, 2019, 9:06 PM
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You are defending a status quo that results in per capita homicide rates on par with war zones, not me
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  #2144  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2019, 12:15 AM
jtown,man jtown,man is offline
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Yeah, I don't know what the solution is but I don't understand how the VAST majority of Americans care zero about our murder/crime rates. I mean I know why. The Left thinks its racist to point out or that there is no answer because #racism. The Right either doesn't care because its not their problem or on the extreme edge they see it as alright because 'atleast they are killing each other off.'

We should all care. Period. And I don't mean "care"...like actually do something about it. 8 people were killed in Chicago last night, didn't make the news. Two moms who fight against the violence in Chicago were killed recently, no one cares.
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  #2145  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2019, 12:41 AM
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Originally Posted by dc_denizen View Post
You are defending a status quo that results in per capita homicide rates on par with war zones, not me
Where did I say that work shouldn't be done to make Baltimore safer?

I only have an issue with a flippant suggestion that the military should be used to enforce law and order in an American city. Maybe you don't realize the implications but it's extremely problematic.
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  #2146  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2019, 1:50 AM
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Originally Posted by niwell View Post
Generally the military isn’t really equipped to do policing, as has been seen many times over.
Obviously the police in these high crime neighborhoods aren’t doing any better. The problem isn’t policing it’s a culture of violence that doesn’t change and won’t change.
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  #2147  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2019, 1:05 PM
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Last edited by iheartthed; Aug 5, 2019 at 8:09 PM.
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  #2148  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2019, 2:18 PM
Chisouthside Chisouthside is offline
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A few things to consider while discussing violence in Chicago
According to the DEA Chicago has become a huge hub for the distribution of heroin.
Heroin overdoses and shooting deaths in Chicago both seemed to have spiked at the same time after 2015.
Most of the city's heroin markets are on the west side.
There was a spike in shootings on the west side during lollapalooza weekends foe 2018 and 2019.

Prior to 2016 Chicago was doing a so-so job of dealing with murders but 2016 was definitely a bad year. At least with the last couple of years theres some strong evidence tying the high murder counts to conflicts for heroin markets on the west side of chicago.
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  #2149  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2019, 4:58 PM
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Originally Posted by dc_denizen View Post

Ultimately it seems the way to solve the crime problem is by integrating neighborhoods . For whatever reason, black homicide rates in more integrated neighborhoods tend to plummet.this has been very evident in DC.
You actually have your reason right there. You almost said it yourself.
Traditionally, white areas have been more wealthy. Blacks who moved in to those areas are the well-off and educated. The blacks and everybody else in the ghetto are poor and poorly educated. Integration isn't the answer even if it sounds ideal for its own reasons. What's needed is education...always has been the answer and always will be. In this context, integration should be solely in the realm of educational attainment levels. The rest will take care of itself.
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  #2150  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2019, 6:07 PM
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So far it’s inconclusive whether or not it’s been effective - last weekend alone there were still around 50 murders. Including a Ukrainian tourist murdered in a very touristy area. Some weekends there can be over 70 but it varies.
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  #2151  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2019, 8:00 PM
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Letting military deal with crime has been a topic in Italy and UK, but as far as i know it has not happened yet.

British defence minister was open to bring in military to help fight knife crime in London, and it has also been talks several times to bring in military to fight Camorra-crime in Naples. After 10 murders in a week in Naples 2016 the topic was widely debated. I can only imagine what it would sound like after 200 murders +.

This has also been proposed by the right wing party in Sweden, but i think the chance for it to happen here is minimal. Countries like Denmark and Italy i think would not hesitate if their murder rate would spike to the levels of Baltimore, Detroit and ST Louis.
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  #2152  
Old Posted Aug 6, 2019, 4:25 PM
Baronvonellis Baronvonellis is offline
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Originally Posted by ilcapo View Post
Letting military deal with crime has been a topic in Italy and UK, but as far as i know it has not happened yet.

British defence minister was open to bring in military to help fight knife crime in London, and it has also been talks several times to bring in military to fight Camorra-crime in Naples. After 10 murders in a week in Naples 2016 the topic was widely debated. I can only imagine what it would sound like after 200 murders +.

This has also been proposed by the right wing party in Sweden, but i think the chance for it to happen here is minimal. Countries like Denmark and Italy i think would not hesitate if their murder rate would spike to the levels of Baltimore, Detroit and ST Louis.
So Chicago is a big center for heroin distribution, and that's where most of the murders and crime stem from. Killing to fight over drug dealing territory.
If you remove the drug and gang violence from Chicago, it would look pretty peaceful.

Where are the big centers of drug dealing in Europe? Why don't the drug dealing gangs in Europe fight and murder each other like they do in the US?
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  #2153  
Old Posted Aug 6, 2019, 7:31 PM
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Where are the big centers of drug dealing in Europe? Why don't the drug dealing gangs in Europe fight and murder each other like they do in the US?
Extremely hard to tell. I mean, you have a larger number of drug users (bigger market), number of guns and lack of successful people outside of sports and entertainment. Visible poverty in the US is definitely way beyond what you see in most of Europe and therefore more people to take advantage of.

You also have the mentality among young men that everybody wants to be their own boss and its almost a bad thing to be an employee and take orders.That mentality exists here too but its concentrated to smaller neighborhoods and theres usually a few people that "call the shots" whereas in the US i have a feeling that theres not so much leadership within the criminal world.

In the US its all about being the center of attention and the whole world revolves around you, so you must make a name for yourself one way or another.

The criminals might be more organized aswell while the street gangs in America have a history of taking pride in being ruthless and stupid.

I think this is shifting a bit in Europe as well where you in cities can see "baby gangs" as they call them in Naples, that are less focused on business than the older generation of criminals, and more into proving a name for themselves for being ruthless.

And to be honest, a big portion of people in poor urban neighborhoods in Europe are muslims and shy away from drugs to an extent.

But I think it all comes down to your number of drug users in the end.


This is a generalization of course and just my opinions so i might be way off. Let me know what you think!

Last edited by ilcapo; Aug 6, 2019 at 7:46 PM.
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  #2154  
Old Posted Aug 6, 2019, 7:49 PM
jtown,man jtown,man is offline
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Originally Posted by ilcapo View Post
Extremely hard to tell. I mean, you have a larger number of drug users (bigger market), number of guns and lack of successful people outside of sports and entertainment. Visible poverty in the US is definitely way beyond what you see in most of Europe and therefore more people to take advantage of.

You also have the mentality among young men that everybody wants to be their own boss and its almost a bad thing to be an employee and take orders.That mentality exists here too but its concentrated to smaller neighborhoods and theres usually a few people that "call the shots" whereas in the US i have a feeling that theres not so much leadership within the criminal world.

In the US its all about being the center of attention and the whole world revolves around you, so you must make a name for yourself one way or another.

The criminals might be more organized aswell while the street gangs in America have a history of taking pride in being ruthless and stupid.

I think this is shifting a bit in Europe as well where you in cities can see "baby gangs" as they call them in Naples, that are less focused on business than the older generation of criminals, and more into proving a name for themselves for being ruthless.

And to be honest, a big portion of people in poor urban neighborhoods in Europe are muslims and shy away from drugs to an extent.

But I think it all comes down to your number of drug users in the end.


This is a generalization of course and just my opinions so i might be way off. Let me know what you think!
I can't speak to anything in Europe but I think you have America down pretty well.
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  #2155  
Old Posted Aug 7, 2019, 7:20 PM
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Originally Posted by jtown,man View Post
I can't speak to anything in Europe but I think you have America down pretty well.
I agree. America is well known for its independent-streak, it's how the country was founded after all and is ingrained in American culture. Distrust of government/the police is common especially in poor minority neighborhoods. Add in drugs (and the drug trade) and easy access to guns and you have the violent crime that plagues every American city. Obviously some cities have it worse than others i.e. Chicago.
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  #2156  
Old Posted Aug 8, 2019, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
NYC, overall, isn't that far off from European or Canadian cities.
Perhaps some outlier smaller European Western Europe and larger Eastern European cities. If you were comparing a city like London which has a slightly larger population, but has many similarities, New York has a rate 2.5x higher.

London
Pop: 8,908,081 (2018)
Murders: 67
Rate: 0.75
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  #2157  
Old Posted Aug 8, 2019, 11:23 AM
Crawford Crawford is offline
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Perhaps some outlier smaller European Western Europe and larger Eastern European cities. If you were comparing a city like London which has a slightly larger population, but has many similarities, New York has a rate 2.5x higher.

London
Pop: 8,908,081 (2018)
Murders: 67
Rate: 0.75
London has an unusually low murder rate. But London has a quite high crime rate, higher than NYC. And I was talking about Europe/Canada, not the UK.

And you aren't comparing apples to apples. You're comparing GLA to NYC proper, which makes no sense. NYC suburbs have very low murder rates, and much of the GLA is more analogous to places like Westchester and Fairfield Counties.
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  #2158  
Old Posted Aug 8, 2019, 3:18 PM
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The easily availability of guns is a major factor in American crime. Much harder to get a semi-automatic pistol or fully automatic rifle in western Europe than it is in America, where ownership of these weapons is not only allowed but encouraged in some states. A huge proportion of guns used in Chicago crimes come from Indiana, less than a 30 minute drive to the South Side to a place where you can buy pretty much any gun you want wiht limited restrictions.

Compare that to London, located on an island with strict gun laws.

EDIT: Not meant to start a gun control debate, just stating an obvious difference between cities and crime rates in the US vs other parts of hte world.
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  #2159  
Old Posted Aug 8, 2019, 8:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Handro View Post
The easily availability of guns is a major factor in American crime. Much harder to get a semi-automatic pistol or fully automatic rifle in western Europe than it is in America, where ownership of these weapons is not only allowed but encouraged in some states. A huge proportion of guns used in Chicago crimes come from Indiana, less than a 30 minute drive to the South Side to a place where you can buy pretty much any gun you want wiht limited restrictions.

Compare that to London, located on an island with strict gun laws.

EDIT: Not meant to start a gun control debate, just stating an obvious difference between cities and crime rates in the US vs other parts of hte world.
True to an extent in my opinion. But if we are talking about gang/drug-related crime among young men im not sure if the availability of guns are the big issue. Perhaps in the UK where knives seems to be the weapon of choice, but a criminal in the netherlands, Sweden or France have access to guns if they live in a criminal environment and could easily find one.

I think stricter gun laws would be good for the schoolshooters, the sick-fuck mentally ill lone-wolf etc but i doubt it would affect the poor urban communities where most of the killings take place.

Its not like gang members in Europe are 'trying to kill eachother but cant because there are no guns around', its got to be something else, something thats deeply rooted in the poor (and mostly black) neighborhoods. Its just easier to get involved in that lifestyle in parts of the US and i dont know why.
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  #2160  
Old Posted Aug 8, 2019, 8:20 PM
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Originally Posted by ilcapo View Post
True to an extent in my opinion. But if we are talking about gang/drug-related crime among young men im not sure if the availability of guns are the big issue. Perhaps in the UK where knives seems to be the weapon of choice, but a criminal in the netherlands, Sweden or France have access to guns if they live in a criminal environment and could easily find one.

I think stricter gun laws would be good for the schoolshooters, the sick-fuck mentally ill lone-wolf etc but i doubt it would affect the poor urban communities where most of the killings take place.

Its not like gang members in Europe are 'trying to kill eachother but cant because there are no guns around', its got to be something else, something thats deeply rooted in the poor (and mostly black) neighborhoods. Its just easier to get involved in that lifestyle in parts of the US and i dont know why.
Not sure why it would stop one and not the other. I think you're significantly underestimating how easy it is to purchase a gun in the US.
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