Regional identity

[benp]

Originally Posted by pj3000

The Southern Tier, Central NY, Adirondacks, Albany area... downstate??

I've never heard anyone refer to these decidedly upstate areas (to me at least) as "downstate".

I think of "downstate" as basically the Catskills area south to NYC. If you continued the PA border directly east to join the CT northern border... anything south of that line is downstate.

You are correct, I gave a lazy answer. I usually think of anything south and east of the Mohawk as "downstate" (from the perspective of WNY).

I suppose there are 2 ways to look at regional identity - self-identity, or as-identified by others. When I lived in Texas, I never identified myself as "from Upstate New York."

[3rd&Brown]

I think of the upstate/downstate delineation as a sort of hockem's razor. It's a very brut sort without a lot of specificity. Like yes no are you in the NYC orbit or not.

Beyond that no one within those regions speaks that way generally. It becomes Western NY, Finger Lakes, Hudson Valley, Capital Region, etc.

[wwmiv]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

I think of the upstate/downstate delineation as a sort of hockem's razor. It's a very brut sort without a lot of specificity. Like yes no are you in the NYC orbit or not.

Beyond that no one within those regions speaks that way generally. It becomes Western NY, Finger Lakes, Hudson Valley, Capital Region, etc.

Occam’s Razor…

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor

[JManc]

No one in upstate rarely says they live in upstate to each other and I never thought about it until I moved away and had to describe where I was from from geographically challenged Texans. But this map pretty much sums it up...

[wwmiv]

Originally Posted by JManc

No one in upstate rarely says they live in upstate to each other and I never thought about it until I moved away and had to describe where I was from from geographically challenged Texans. But this map pretty much sums it up...

Fun fact, New York has a higher illiteracy rate than most of the third world and the highest of all US states (and a good 10% less literate than MISSISSIPPI). Don’t throw stones in glass houses.

[aufbau]

Upstate for me begins at 14th Street.

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by aufbau

Upstate for me begins at 14th Street.

yr dam jiggy.

but since we moved to staten i had to lower it to canal.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by wwmiv

Fun fact, New York has a higher illiteracy rate than most of the third world and the highest of all US states (and a good 10% less literate than MISSISSIPPI). Don’t throw stones in glass houses.

I've lived in Texas 30 years and am married to one...I can absolutely pick on them.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by wwmiv

Fun fact, New York has a higher illiteracy rate than most of the third world and the highest of all US states (and a good 10% less literate than MISSISSIPPI). Don’t throw stones in glass houses.

This is pretty clearly not true.

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by wwmiv

Fun fact, New York has a higher illiteracy rate than most of the third world and the highest of all US states (and a good 10% less literate than MISSISSIPPI). Don’t throw stones in glass houses.

nope -- this got nys at #45 and 'ole miss at #48 as of 2023 --

https://wisevoter.com/state-rankings...rate-by-state/

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

nope -- this got nys at #45 and 'ole miss at #48 as of 2023 --

https://wisevoter.com/state-rankings...rate-by-state/

At first glance, a national literacy rate of only 80.7% seemed crazy low for the US - that'd be well below the global average of 86%. But this is specifically measuring the English-language literacy rate, meaning that immigrant-heavy states like California and New York, and/or heavily Spanish-speaking ones like New Mexico and Texas (or also California) fare disproportionately low.

In other words, the lowest-scoring states of New Mexico, California, and Texas would have actually significantly higher true rates of literacy than is indicated here. On the other hand, the fact that a state like Mississippi - one with negligible immigrant and non-English-speaking populations - still has a literacy rate of only 72% is pretty wild.

[AviationGuy]

Originally Posted by JManc

No one in upstate rarely says they live in upstate to each other and I never thought about it until I moved away and had to describe where I was from from geographically challenged Texans. But this map pretty much sums it up...

Regarding your "geography challenged" comment, it was in New York where I encountered people (who I didn't know) who gave me a blank look when I explained I was originally from the Texas Gulf Coast region, and that Houston's port was one of the largest in the country. One New Yorker commented "how can that be?", thinking that all of Texas is way out west, when the vast majority of people in the state don't live anywhere near west Texas, nor have even been there.

I think "geography challenged" is an American problem.

[mrnyc]

^ they probably balked immediately when you said hugh-ston.

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

At first glance, a national literacy rate of only 80.7% seemed crazy low for the US - that'd be well below the global average of 86%. But this is specifically measuring the English-language literacy rate, meaning that immigrant-heavy states like California and New York, and/or heavily Spanish-speaking ones like New Mexico and Texas (or also California) fare disproportionately low.

In other words, the lowest-scoring states of New Mexico, California, and Texas would have actually significantly higher true rates of literacy than is indicated here. On the other hand, the fact that a state like Mississippi - one with negligible immigrant and non-English-speaking populations - still has a literacy rate of only 72% is pretty wild.

you know what else is pretty wilder? miss has a babies born to single mothers rate of 55%, by far the highest in the states. that's 3rd world insanity. poverty is a bear and correlational things like that don't help literacy when survival is overwhelming.

[SIGSEGV]

Originally Posted by AviationGuy

Regarding your "geography challenged" comment, it was in New York where I encountered people (who I didn't know) who gave me a blank look when I explained I was originally from the Texas Gulf Coast region, and that Houston's port was one of the largest in the country. One New Yorker commented "how can that be?", thinking that all of Texas is way out west, when the vast majority of people in the state don't live anywhere near west Texas, nor have even been there.

I think "geography challenged" is an American problem.

Yeah, I don't think this is one of the biggest ports in the country
https://www.google.com/maps/place/E+...waDc?entry=ttu

[Buckeye Native 001]

Originally Posted by AviationGuy

Regarding your "geography challenged" comment, it was in New York where I encountered people (who I didn't know) who gave me a blank look when I explained I was originally from the Texas Gulf Coast region, and that Houston's port was one of the largest in the country. One New Yorker commented "how can that be?", thinking that all of Texas is way out west, when the vast majority of people in the state don't live anywhere near west Texas, nor have even been there.

I think "geography challenged" is an American problem.

Reminds me of that New Yorker cover where anything west of 10th Avenue is practically barren wasteland.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by AviationGuy

Regarding your "geography challenged" comment, it was in New York where I encountered people (who I didn't know) who gave me a blank look when I explained I was originally from the Texas Gulf Coast region, and that Houston's port was one of the largest in the country. One New Yorker commented "how can that be?", thinking that all of Texas is way out west, when the vast majority of people in the state don't live anywhere near west Texas, nor have even been there.

I think "geography challenged" is an American problem.

Yeah, New Yorkers are pretty geographically challenged lol. That should not be a controversial statement at all. There might be more awareness upstate, but people in the five boroughs can barely pick out Newark, NJ, on a map, to say nothing of any place west of the Delaware Water Gap.

[JManc]

To most NYC'ers, anything north of Yonkers is Canada.

[wwmiv]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

nope -- this got nys at #45 and 'ole miss at #48 as of 2023 --

https://wisevoter.com/state-rankings...rate-by-state/

Yes, let’s both cherry pick stupid datasets from the same year that support out points:

https://www.zippia.com/advice/us-lit...rate-by-state/

The point here is that New York is not some literate paradise. At all.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by wwmiv

Yes, let’s both cherry pick stupid datasets from the same year that support out points:

https://www.zippia.com/advice/us-lit...rate-by-state/

The point here is that New York is not some literate paradise. At all.

Pretty sure that the literacy rate here is skewed by people who are not fluent in English. New York and California both have the supposed lowest literacy rates, but those two states are also disproportionately populated by people who do not speak English. OTOH, New York and California are the two richest states in the country, so if you're implying that the literacy rates are an indicator of educational attainment, then I think you're barking up the wrong tree. New York is in the top 10 states for percent of residents with 4-year degrees and also in the top 10 states for percent of residents with an advanced degree.

[wwmiv]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Pretty sure that the literacy rate here is skewed by people who are not fluent in English. New York and California both have the supposed lowest literacy rates, but those two states are also disproportionately populated by people who do not speak English. OTOH, New York and California are the two richest states in the country, so if you're implying that the literacy rates are an indicator of educational attainment, then I think you're barking up the wrong tree. New York is in the top 10 states for percent of residents with 4-year degrees and also in the top 10 states for percent of residents with an advanced degree.

Yes, and Austin is routinely in lists of most and least fit Americans. Two seemingly opposite things can be true…

1. Among the most educated.
2. Among the most illiterate.

… provided that the society consists of large groups of haves (fit or educated) and have nots (fat or illiterate), if there are relatively very few people in between (slim/slender/average or literate but not degreed).

Furthermore, your about English language and literacy misses an important piece of the dynamic: many low income immigrants cannot read nor write in their own native language. I doubt that whether or not they can read or write in specifically English matters for the topline literacy numbers all that much.