HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > United States > Southwest


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #5621  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2018, 2:36 PM
biggus diggus biggus diggus is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 2,838
Quote:
Originally Posted by combusean View Post
My biggest fear with the self driving cars is that they will drive in a hyperlegal fashion that doesn’t respect reality like that moron going 70 in the left lane.

Yes, the speed limit is 65 but the only people that do 65 in the left lane are insane idiots that should not be on the road. This is especially poignant on 280 where cops don’t pull you over for doing 79. The 101 in Arizona similarly moves much faster than the speed limit.
Eventually people will be retrained to not break the law.
__________________
Mr. K the monopoly man
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5622  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2018, 3:48 PM
exit2lef exit2lef is online now
self-important urbanista
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 3,027
Quote:
Originally Posted by biggus diggus View Post
Eventually people will be retrained to not break the law.
I would feel much safer with autonomous vehicles than with most human drivers. My biggest concern, though, is that the most aggressive drivers will reject autonomous vehicles because the vehicles will be too cautious for their tastes. I can only hope that they won't notice their drives are taking a little longer because they'll be free to be as distracted as they want during the experience.

Safety concerns (exaggerated IMO) aside, here's an interesting bit of skepticism recently published in the NYT: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...ve-cities.html

Last edited by exit2lef; Mar 1, 2018 at 4:13 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5623  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2018, 4:54 PM
biggus diggus biggus diggus is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 2,838
That will be an issue for a while until the aggressive drivers are outnumbered by autonomous vehicles and have no way around them.

Of course that won't happen in any of our lifetime.
__________________
Mr. K the monopoly man
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5624  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2018, 5:00 PM
ASU Diablo ASU Diablo is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,287
Quote:
Originally Posted by biggus diggus View Post
That will be an issue for a while until the aggressive drivers are outnumbered by autonomous vehicles and have no way around them.

Of course that won't happen in any of our lifetime.
You must be pretty old cause it will definitely happen in mine I welcome this change and can't wait to take delivery of my Model 3 in the next 3-6 weeks.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5625  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2018, 5:05 PM
biggus diggus biggus diggus is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 2,838
I'm a die-hard purist of manual transmissions, naturally aspirated gasoline engines, and noise. Glad this new wave of technology won't be the norm until I'm long gone.
__________________
Mr. K the monopoly man
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5626  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2018, 5:10 PM
ASU Diablo ASU Diablo is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,287
Quote:
Originally Posted by biggus diggus View Post
I'm a die-hard purist of manual transmissions, naturally aspirated gasoline engines, and noise. Glad this new wave of technology won't be the norm until I'm long gone.
Yeah I get it. I will miss driving my 5-speed but man such a PITA when in traffic. Driving a Tesla will be different, hopefully it's a positive experience.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5627  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2018, 5:29 PM
biggus diggus biggus diggus is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 2,838
One of my clients has been waiting for her model 3 for what seems like forever. Like you she's really excited about getting the car, I hope it's worth the wait. Did you watch Doug Demuro's review?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=te6VqldjTT8
__________________
Mr. K the monopoly man
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5628  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2018, 8:34 PM
combusean's Avatar
combusean combusean is online now
Skyriser
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Newark, California
Posts: 7,202
Quote:
Originally Posted by biggus diggus View Post
Eventually people will be retrained to not break the law.
The traffic engineers in their infinite wisdom set speed limits not for the design speed of the roadway but around the stupid 85% rule. If the vast majority of people are doing 75 miles an hour on 101 as a matter for the course, the speed limit shouldn’t be 65.

If you have to put a sign up to tell people to slow down the problem is not drivers, the problem is the design of the road.

But that’s something to be expected for traffic engineering, the only profession that results in the deaths of tens of thousands of people every year.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5629  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2018, 8:43 PM
biggus diggus biggus diggus is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 2,838
Quote:
Originally Posted by combusean View Post

If you have to put a sign up to tell people to slow down the problem is not drivers, the problem is the design of the road.
I don't think this could be more inaccurate.

To blame people's arrogance and desire to put others in danger for their own perceived benefit of getting their faster on the design of a road is just silly.
__________________
Mr. K the monopoly man
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5630  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2018, 8:45 PM
ASU Diablo ASU Diablo is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,287
Quote:
Originally Posted by biggus diggus View Post
One of my clients has been waiting for her model 3 for what seems like forever. Like you she's really excited about getting the car, I hope it's worth the wait. Did you watch Doug Demuro's review?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=te6VqldjTT8
Yeah saw that a while ago and been keeping close eye on all reviews...
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5631  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2018, 11:08 PM
TAZ4ate0's Avatar
TAZ4ate0 TAZ4ate0 is offline
High Voltage
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Tempe, Arizona (Phoenix)
Posts: 758
Quote:
Originally Posted by combusean View Post

If you have to put a sign up to tell people to slow down the problem is not drivers, the problem is the design of the road.

But that’s something to be expected for traffic engineering, the only profession that results in the deaths of tens of thousands of people every year.
If you would only be referring to surface street engineering, I could agree somewhat. There are tons if death traps on city streets and even rural roads, but generally, those are low speed. Otherwise, interstates and freeways built to higher speed standards are built with a ton of safety designs in mind....including a set speed.We aren't building the autobahn here.

To say poor traffic engineering, especially freeways, in general kills people is just wrong. No, people kill other people,or, themselves by poor driving habits by speed, distractions such as texting etc, and impaired driving....and a laundry list of other things....ie improper maintenance on their vehicles to name one. Human stupidity is mostly to blame.
__________________
My photos: Tempe part I Tempe part II Tempe part III

Last edited by TAZ4ate0; Mar 1, 2018 at 11:25 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5632  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2018, 12:16 AM
CrestedSaguaro's Avatar
CrestedSaguaro CrestedSaguaro is offline
Modulator
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 4,404
Quote:
Originally Posted by TAZ4ate0 View Post
If you would only be referring to surface street engineering, I could agree somewhat. There are tons if death traps on city streets and even rural roads, but generally, those are low speed. Otherwise, interstates and freeways built to higher speed standards are built with a ton of safety designs in mind....including a set speed.We aren't building the autobahn here.

To say poor traffic engineering, especially freeways, in general kills people is just wrong. No, people kill other people,or, themselves by poor driving habits by speed, distractions such as texting etc, and impaired driving....and a laundry list of other things....ie improper maintenance on their vehicles to name one. Human stupidity is mostly to blame.
Road engineering has progressed very little in the same amount of time that car technology has made leaps and bounds. So, I think Sean has a point about roads being at least part of the problem. I can't drive in certain lanes around Phoenix because my tires get caught in the asphalt seams which makes my car squirrely. I mean how hard could it be to close up those seams? Also, lanes can get notoriously narrow as Phoenix and other cities try to squeeze in an additional lane at the expense of reduced lane width and no shoulder. I have seen many accidents created by these problems. But I will agree lack of attention/distraction is the main cause of accidents.

But let's get serious here for a sec...40 years ago, everyone predicted 90% of drivers would have an electric car or even a flying car by now. Yet, Prius, Volt, Tesla and any other electric cars account for about 25% of total car sales on the road and there are no flying cars. So, I take self-driving cars with a grain of salt. I think 30 years from now, we will have about the same ratio of around 25% for self-drivers. I think it won't be as accepted as people think it will be. There's also the costs. A self-driver is simply going to be too expensive for Joe Average to afford and also how much is it going to be to repair these when they are out of warranty? How dangerous will they be when someone can't get one fixed out of warranty and still try to drive it or are they going to go into some kind of lock mode to keep them from being driven if a side camera fails? I can repair the majority of stuff on my car myself saving me money, but what the heck am I going to do if one of those spinning cameras break? I will gamble the vast majority of drivers aren't going to know a thing about these self driving cars or how to fix them without putting down a serious chunk of change.

But I don't know. Maybe the federal government will mandate certain things to have extended warranties and stuff. I haven't really followed the self-driver market too much, so these are just my own concerns. I just don't see these vehicles being available for a very long time to the average money-maker.
__________________
Ronnie Garrett
https://skyscraperpage.com/diagrams/?memberID=205
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5633  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2018, 3:21 AM
exit2lef exit2lef is online now
self-important urbanista
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 3,027
Quote:
Originally Posted by RonnieFoos View Post
Road engineering has progressed very little in the same amount of time that car technology has made leaps and bounds. So, I think Sean has a point about roads being at least part of the problem. I can't drive in certain lanes around Phoenix because my tires get caught in the asphalt seams which makes my car squirrely. I mean how hard could it be to close up those seams? Also, lanes can get notoriously narrow as Phoenix and other cities try to squeeze in an additional lane at the expense of reduced lane width and no shoulder. I have seen many accidents created by these problems. But I will agree lack of attention/distraction is the main cause of accidents.
Excessively wide lanes, common in Phoenix, are often more dangerous. A major problem with contemporary road design is that roads are built to leave a generous margin of error for drivers. This is manifested through wide lanes and rounded corners. That sounds like it might make roads safer, but it can have the opposite effect. It sends drivers subtle, subconscious cues that they can drive faster. That's why well-designed road diets often make places safer not only for bicyclists and pedestrians, but also for drivers and passengers of cars. When a road has narrower lanes and tighter corners, speeds tend to be lower. Certainly driver behavior and distraction is a major factor, but there's a lot that design can do to influence driver behavior, even without the driver realizing it.

Some interesting writing on the subject. The first one is poorly written and below Speck's usual standards, but it still makes good arguments. The second one is more focused and reads better. Both reinforce the relationship between lane width and road safety.

https://www.citylab.com/design/2014/...ed-now/381117/

https://www.citylab.com/solutions/20...f-cars/399761/

Last edited by exit2lef; Mar 2, 2018 at 12:33 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5634  
Old Posted Mar 14, 2018, 11:19 PM
Classical in Phoenix's Avatar
Classical in Phoenix Classical in Phoenix is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: A place with bigger haboobs than yours
Posts: 625
Air Canada will increase its frequency of flights to Phoenix from Calgary and Vancouver. https://t.co/bsgLEEirJy

Some good news.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5635  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2018, 12:39 AM
N830MH N830MH is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 2,987
Quote:
Originally Posted by Classical in Phoenix View Post
Air Canada will increase its frequency of flights to Phoenix from Calgary and Vancouver. https://t.co/bsgLEEirJy

Some good news.
Indeed, it is. It's very good news. Hopefully they will add nonstop PHX to Paris, Amsterdam, and Tokyo in the future. Let make it happen.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5636  
Old Posted Mar 19, 2018, 5:55 PM
exit2lef exit2lef is online now
self-important urbanista
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 3,027
"A woman in Tempe, Ariz., died after being hit by a self-driving car operated by Uber, in what appears to be the first known death of a pedestrian struck by an autonomous vehicle on public roads."

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/19/t...-fatality.html

Without knowing all the details, a few quick thoughts: This appeared to involve a pedestrian outside a marked crosswalk, so legally it may be classified as jaywalking. Still, it's not good news for boosters of autonomous vehicles, and it's yet another pedestrian death. Arizona recently received the unfortunate distinction of being the state with the highest rate of such deaths per capita.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5637  
Old Posted Mar 19, 2018, 6:13 PM
PhxSprawler's Avatar
PhxSprawler PhxSprawler is offline
Desert Dweller
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Phoenix Metro Fringes
Posts: 702
Quote:
Originally Posted by TAZ4ate0 View Post
If you would only be referring to surface street engineering, I could agree somewhat. There are tons if death traps on city streets and even rural roads, but generally, those are low speed. Otherwise, interstates and freeways built to higher speed standards are built with a ton of safety designs in mind....including a set speed.We aren't building the autobahn here.

To say poor traffic engineering, especially freeways, in general kills people is just wrong. No, people kill other people,or, themselves by poor driving habits by speed, distractions such as texting etc, and impaired driving....and a laundry list of other things....ie improper maintenance on their vehicles to name one. Human stupidity is mostly to blame.
Maybe we should be building the autobahn here. On the autobahn, the speed limit is set at 130 km/h in most cities (about 80 mph). Germany has fewer accidents, and people seem to be much more respectful and courteous drivers (like moving to the right instead of being self-righteous speed controllers). The police there focus both on the slow drivers in the left lane and those who pass to the right trying to weave through traffic. Maybe it isn't the road designs, but the focus of patrolling driver actions vs. speed that could help the Phoenix traffic move more efficiently.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5638  
Old Posted Mar 19, 2018, 7:02 PM
biggus diggus biggus diggus is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 2,838
One of the only ways I can envision this not being a problem for Uber is if the on-board cameras show her running out into the street and the car hitting her while applying brakes in response to her appearance.
__________________
Mr. K the monopoly man
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5639  
Old Posted Mar 19, 2018, 11:25 PM
CrestedSaguaro's Avatar
CrestedSaguaro CrestedSaguaro is offline
Modulator
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 4,404
Quote:
Originally Posted by biggus diggus View Post
One of the only ways I can envision this not being a problem for Uber is if the on-board cameras show her running out into the street and the car hitting her while applying brakes in response to her appearance.
I'm waiting to see what exactly happened on this. The photo posted on ABC15 shows a wrecked bike on the sidewalk in front of the Uber vehicle.
__________________
Ronnie Garrett
https://skyscraperpage.com/diagrams/?memberID=205
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5640  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2018, 4:07 AM
exit2lef exit2lef is online now
self-important urbanista
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 3,027
Laura Bliss has some pretty detailed coverage on CityLab:

https://www.citylab.com/transportati...r-uber/555956/

She was in Tempe just last week moderating a forum on self-driving cars at ASU.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > United States > Southwest
Forum Jump



Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 3:26 AM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.