Is there anything wrong with liking urbanism AND auto-oriented places?

[jtown,man]

Originally Posted by Camelback

I like both. I've lived in both. Most Americans live in a suburban style environment. We like our space and the option of movement at any given time. Most people in most cities live the suburban lifestyle whether they want to acknowledge that or not.

I just made that point to my GF yesterday. We went out to the northern burbs here in Chicago to pick up something she won on an online auction (Spice Girls Barbies lol), we then drove to the casino, then to the outlet mall near O'Hare, then to a video game store on Milwaukee in the city, and then to Target next to our house in the South Loop. Driving was super convenient and our day was pretty much the exact same as it would be if we lived out in the burbs.


If this city could open up completely and clean up the CTA, we would use it more, but for now, its the car!

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Camelback

Most people in most cities live the suburban lifestyle whether they want to acknowledge that or not.

I don't buy that.

Degree matters.


US averages for miles driven per month:

Men - 1400 miles
Women - 850 miles

Source: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.idr...-year-us%3famp

And if we distilled those numbers down to just US suburbanites, they would undoubtedly increase.


We're a city dwelling family, and we do own a car, but we use it way less than the average american family.

Our car is 5 years old with 36,000 miles on it, for an average of 600 miles a month. And it's our only car so those miles would be split between me and my wife, let's say a 67/33 split.

So I'm at ~400 miles/month and my wife is at ~200 miles/month.

Both figures are WELL below overall national averages. Yeah, we own a car, and we do drive it sometimes (especially for frequent visits up to Milwaukee to see my wife's family), but we're not hopping in our car everytime we leave our home. In fact, most of the time when we leave our home, it's on foot. That is not the typical US "suburban lifestyle".

[SFBruin]

Originally Posted by Camelback

Most people in most cities live the suburban lifestyle whether they want to acknowledge that or not.

I technically live within the city limits of Seattle and drive 30 miles each day round trip for work.

The closest grocery store is a 12-minute walk away, which I find is just far enough that I would rather drive.

So there's that.

I think that my commute is a little long, though.

[mhays]

Originally Posted by SFBruin

I definitely feel that public policy shouldn't subsidize sprawl, to the extent possible.

I also feel that it shouldn't subsidize urbanity, although I think that it rarely does.

I think that it is fine to subsidize housing, but public policy shouldn't favor one type of housing over another.

The biggest keys are probably growth barriers and focusing road dollars on renewal rather than additions. Same with other public infrastructure. We both live in Seattle...this is what we're doing.

[SFBruin]

Originally Posted by mhays

The biggest keys are ... focusing road dollars on renewal rather than additions.

Agreed. Honestly, if the infrastructure bill included expedited repair of the West Seattle Bridge, I would be a solid Democrat.

[Fresh]

On a purely aesthetic level, I love both cities, suburbs and any kind of infrastructure - it's exhilarating to see Man's achievements. I'm sure many of us on this forum feel similarly

But obviously these things happen in a context of politics, economics, lifestyle etc. I think a 5 level stack interchange is an awesome thing, but would I want one of those in Downtown Sydney or a new Metro line? Probably the latter.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

I

Our car is 5 years old with 36,000 miles on it, for an average of 600 miles a month. And it's our only car so those miles would be split between me and my wife, let's say a 67/33 split.

My wife bought a new Lexus last May and it already has 20,000 miles. My car is a 2016 and only has roughly 49,000 which is pretty good for living in the suburbs and commuting for grad school and work.

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

I don't buy that.

Degree matters.


US averages for miles driven per month:

Men - 1400 miles
Women - 850 miles

Source: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.idr...-year-us%3famp

And if we distilled those numbers down to just US suburbanites, they would undoubtedly increase.


We're a city dwelling family, and we do own a car, but we use it way less than the average american family.

Our car is 5 years old with 36,000 miles on it, for an average of 600 miles a month. And it's our only car so those miles would be split between me and my wife, let's say a 67/33 split.

So I'm at ~400 miles/month and my wife is at ~200 miles/month.

Both figures are WELL below overall national averages. Yeah, we own a car, and we do drive it sometimes (especially for frequent visits up to Milwaukee to see my wife's family), but we're not hopping in our car everytime we leave our home. In fact, most of the time when we leave our home, it's on foot. That is not the typical US "suburban lifestyle".

That can't be right. For men 46 miles or 75 km a day! Average! It's insane.

Originally Posted by Centropolis

god, yeah but also it was a dynamic, slippery american city and the economic mandate was revoked. it would have been cool to see a metro detroit of 8 million people laced with wilshire blvds.

I agree. In such scenario, Detroit footprint wouldn't be much larger than today's, therefore it would be denser and definitely wealthier and more diversified economically and demographically. I guess they would have an interesting LA urban vibes in several places. Very cool to imagine.

[the urban politician]

Well, the lines are blurring now with the whole "we live in the city and drive less" argument, by simply using miles on one's car as a measurement.

I and my wife actually do real work and don't get paid to sit in front of a laptop in Zoom meetings all day, and continue to have to accrue mileage and wear and tear on our cars.

But for the "I get paid to WFH" crowd, you effectively eliminate a car commute. That's a HUGE impact on car mileage. Add in all of the great lifestyle changes that COVID accelerated, where people have their groceries delivered and order everything from Amazon, and basically the gap in car usage between city resident and suburban resident narrows significantly

[Camelback]

My 2015 turned over 70,000 miles this week. Thats about 12,500 miles per year, which is a little below average.

It is funny that you almost always see a man driving the car and a woman as the passenger. Does anybody know the male:female ratio of bus drivers, train operators, truck drivers? Does the government track stuff like that? 5:1? 10:1?

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

But for the "I get paid to WFH" crowd, you effectively eliminate a car commute. That's a HUGE impact on car mileage. Add in all of the great lifestyle changes that COVID accelerated, where people have their groceries delivered and order everything from Amazon, and basically the gap in car usage between city resident and suburban resident narrows significantly

I don't believe on WFH. It affects productivity, basic social skills and in several cases increases stress.

As for having everything delivered at home, no one walking around, interacting, while wages get lower and small businesses killed. That's a very disturbing social/economic trend.

[the urban politician]

Originally Posted by yuriandrade

I don't believe on WFH. It affects productivity, basic social skills and in several cases increases stress.

As for having everything delivered at home, no one walking around, interacting, while wages get lower and small businesses killed. That's a very disturbing social/economic trend.

Ironically, it seems that the most pro-urban, pro-city people are the ones who are most defensive of this practice ("Nah, you're just overreacting, it'll all be fine, real estate will respond to the new norm, I'm doing nothing wrong by not supporting local business").

Amazing in my 17 years on this website how perspectives have changed. In the early days, supporting local family-owned business was the mantra of many forumers here. That's mostly gone now, replaced with this new 'techie' crowd that doesn't want to bother hearing about the plight of the struggling businesses in their community....

[MolsonExport]

What's really weird is the idea that a one-way 50km (31 mile) commute, especially by automobile, is somehow "normal". Untold billions have been spent to perpetuate this state of affairs as normal. Countless inner city neighborhoods ripped apart just so that Joe McMansion can get to work 10 minutes faster. 1/3 of the area in some cities are paved over. The soul-sucking banality of most post-war suburbs. The terrible damage to the environment. The wars fought over the need for the cheap oil that sustains such inconsiderate lifestyles.

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

Ironically, it seems that the most pro-urban, pro-city people are the ones who are most defensive of this practice ("Nah, you're just overreacting, it'll all be fine, real estate will respond to the new norm, I'm doing nothing wrong by not supporting local business").

Amazing in my 17 years on this website how perspectives have changed. In the early days, supporting local family-owned business was the mantra of many forumers here. That's mostly gone now, replaced with this new 'techie' crowd that doesn't want to bother hearing about the plight of the struggling businesses in their community....

In my working place, half of people are WFH and the other half on the office. Clearly the sense of urgence is different. People don't feel on the same way, it's much more challenging to make a quick correction during the daily journey. Those people there tend to be aloof and working things they believe that matter most not on things that actually matter on the moment. And those are the ones that have kept productivity, some just fell off the cliff.

And as you say, they don't seem bothered by it. The fear of the pandemics and are making them to become more reclusive people.

Anyway, the city has became depressing, thousands of restaurants and bars closed (I'll not even mention nightclubs and hotels), fewer people and cars everywhere, young people moving to their parents upstate or exurbs), I can't think of anything good come out of it.

[samne]

I live in the East End of Toronto in a somewhat urban streetcar suburb area. Love the quick transit access to the core. Also love the suburban car access to Scarborough. To be honest Ive frequented the latter much more over the past while with all the easy access amenities it offers.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

Ironically, it seems that the most pro-urban, pro-city people are the ones who are most defensive of this practice

i'm not sure who that is aimed at, but i'm definitely one of the more "pro-city" people on this forum and that is absolutely NOT my attitude.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

god, yeah but also it was a dynamic, slippery american city and the economic mandate was revoked. it would have been cool to see a metro detroit of 8 million people laced with wilshire blvds.

Detroit's problem was/is irresponsible sprawl.

How Sprawl Got Detroit Into This Mess

It wasn’t de-industrialization that bankrupted Detroit, wrote Paul Krugman in a New York Times column yesterday. If that was all there is to it, then how do you explain the fact that Pittsburgh, once so dependent on the steel industry, is now recovering? No, what brought Detroit to this low point, more than the loss of factory jobs, was decades of unsustainable development patterns.

A generation ago, Pittsburgh and Detroit were in similar straits, but Pittsburgh managed to keep its central city relatively strong, while the Detroit region saw a full-scale exodus from the city core.

...

A study released by the Brookings Institution this year found that Detroit has the worst job sprawl in the country. Now, many regions are sprawling, but Detroit is unusual, because it sprawled while the region wasn’t growing. The Detroit metro region, including its suburbs, has shrunk in population by 1.2 percent since 1970.

When the Detroit region sprawled, it wasn’t adding new people, the way Houston sprawled. It was drawing existing residents from the center to the periphery. Homes in the central city were abandoned — and the tax revenues that came from those households evaporated. Detroit, unlike some of its wealthy suburbs in Oakland County, only saw one side of this migration — the losing side. And it was poorly equipped to deal with the fallout.

https://usa.streetsblog.org/2013/07/...nto-this-mess/

What should have happened is that the state of Michigan should have stepped in and stopped the suburban sprawl developments from cannibalizing the city. But that's an alternate universe where politicians do things make sense lol.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

f Michigan should have stepped in and stopped the suburban sprawl developments from cannibalizing the city. But that's an alternate universe where politicians do things make sense lol.

I don't think that would have worked. It may have even worsened sprawl.

The issue is that the extreme sprawl characteristic of Metro Detroit is (or at least was) heavily white flight-based. If there were some scenario where it was difficult to move to sprawl within the tri-county area, I think it's most likely that the sprawl would have leapfrogged the counties. Basically Livingston County and the like would have developed earlier, while areas like Rochester and Novi would be even more affluent, due to growth restrictions.

Of course if you had European-style sprawl restrictions, and no freeway building, it would be impossible to live 50 miles out. But that's a pretty implausible scenario in the postwar U.S. context.

[SIGSEGV]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

i'm not sure who that is aimed at, but i'm definitely one of the more "pro-city" people on this forum and that is absolutely NOT my attitude.

Only a few people on this forum seem to be pro WFH as a general matter (as opposed to a public health measure during the pandemic). WFH sucks, but it's better than killing off all the emeritus professors...

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

My family always criticizes me because I'm not a picky eater. I like eating. I'll pretty much eat almost everything.

And I'm sort of coming to that conclusion about built environments.

I LOVE urbanism. Narrow lots, walkability, limiting parking, density, etc. I hate when auto-oriented projects interrupt a cohesive urban environment.

But when I drive around in sprawl, I find it somewhat less pleasing, but I still enjoy it for being the completely different world that it is. So many people live out here, and it's kind of a feat of engineering in and of itself. Lots of freedom of mobility, you tend to travel at higher speeds, and you can get to such a varying number of destinations of all different types and typologies.

Is it strange that I appreciate both environments? I like them as two separate entities, and I do not want to see them mixed. Does anybody else see it this way?

I find I am always longing for change, appreciate variety and grow weary of the same thing all the time - even if it's fundamentally good or even awesome. (Like how I just love summer and an eager to see it start but by the time late August rolls around if it's been really hot and humid, slightly cooler weather isn't unwelcome.)

In terms of my physical surroundings, what that means is that after spending lots of time in auto-dependent suburbia, I often long for a dense walkable urban setting. It's so convenient to have everything nearby plus the vibrancy is really cool.

But after a while I miss the convenience and ease of driving everywhere in the suburbs.

And then the cycle just repeats itself.

(Of course, we're talking about decently functional urban and suburban environments here. There are shitty urban and shitty suburban environments out there.)

I think there are different personalities out there too. Many people are like me (and TUP I assume) whereas others are 100% content with what they like and will drink only the same brand of beer every single day as it's what they think is the best.