DENVER | Transportation Thread

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

No, all HOV lanes in Colorado are going to HOV3 effective January 1, 2017. The Transportation Commission approved that ages ago - it's in a February 2013 resolution.

Well, I-66 in Virginia has been scheduled to convert from HOV-2 to HOV-3 every year for the past decade. And every year, I tell our General Assembly members to oppose a bill to push off the changeover date by another year. And every year, that bill passes.

Not to say that will definitely happen in Colorado. Just that it's easy to schedule, but equally easy to push off once people start complaining.

[bunt_q]

Except that we've set ourselves up to have very real financial consequences to pushing it off, because we're depending on toll revenues for various obligations. People may complain about the switch from HOV2 to HOV3. But if it costs us a million dollars in toll revenues, the people who don't get a million dollars worth of projects elsewhere will also complain. Likewise, the concessionaire whose lane isn't operating correctly because it's overwhelmed with HOV2 traffic might not only complain, he might well come after us. It's very hard for me to imagine them backing off. It also helps that they gave it a four year lead time. Most of all, it helps that it's not a legislative decision in Colorado.

[TakeFive]

BTW, I did spend some time over the weekend scoping out the CDOT Projects page. It's been awhile and they have upped their game with nifty photos and an occasional video.

I'll assume that a bipartisan mindset will realize like other states have, that a federal miracle fix is not coming at Christmas and move to raise the gas tax. Tolls may be great for certain projects but then that still leaves everything else.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

BTW, I did spend some time over the weekend scoping out the CDOT Projects page. It's been awhile and they have upped their game with nifty photos and an occasional video.

I'll assume that a bipartisan mindset will realize like other states have, that a federal miracle fix is not coming at Christmas and move to raise the gas tax. Tolls may be great for certain projects but then that still leaves everything else.

Why in God's name would any legislator put their name on a tax hike in Colorado? Can you name one statewide tax hike that's passed since 1992?

[EngiNerd]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

No, all HOV lanes in Colorado are going to HOV3 effective January 1, 2017. The Transportation Commission approved that ages ago - it's in a February 2013 resolution. No plan to change it. Here: https://www.codot.gov/about/transpor..._download/file

And yes, please get that switchable transponder.

Thanks for that clarification, I didn't realize it was that set in stone. I was hoping 2016 would be used as a trial period to realize that there are very very few cars with HOV 3+ and just go ahead and leave it 2+....but it sounds like that is not a possibility.

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

Except that we've set ourselves up to have very real financial consequences to pushing it off, because we're depending on toll revenues for various obligations.

That's supposed to be the plan for I-66 too, but wouldn't you know it, the region's congresspeople hate it.

I'm just saying, be prepared for this to not be as easy as you hope.

[mr1138]

Folsom street in Boulder has been officially "right-sized." http://www.dailycamera.com/news/boulder/ci_28508999/wider-bike-lanes-installed-folsom-work-continues-this

I rode on it yesterday and it definitely does feel more comfortable. Now to see whether or not it results in total gridlock, as the project's opponents claim. This has been an EXTREMELY controversial issue in town, for those of you who may not have been following.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

That's supposed to be the plan for I-66 too, but wouldn't you know it, the region's congresspeople hate it.

I'm just saying, be prepared for this to not be as easy as you hope.

Well we already have the tolls. We have an entire entity within CDOT (the only entity doing anything right now) dedicated to tolling. But yeah, we'll be prepared. I do think we're benefited by the fact that no elected official has a say on HOV under Colorado law (unless they pass legislation stripping that authority from the appointed Transportation Commission).

There's not a lot of anti-tolling rhetoric from elected officials here. I think that's because being anti-toll can so easily translate into being anti-TABOR and pro-tax.

There's also quite a bit of pressure not to make new lanes HOV at all; the only thing mitigating that pressure is the knowledge that the switch to HOV3 is imminent, and HOV3 produces not-a-lot-of free traffic (which is the point). We need toll revenues, thank you TABOR. I think fiscal pressures will win out over anything the HOV lobby (is there such a thing?) can muster.

Originally Posted by TakeFive

I'll assume that a bipartisan mindset will realize like other states have, that a federal miracle fix is not coming at Christmas and move to raise the gas tax. Tolls may be great for certain projects but then that still leaves everything else.

Like what? What project do you have in mind that you don't think can be addressed through a P3?

There isn't even discussion of a gas tax. It was studied last year, and it polled so badly, I doubt it'll even be looked at again for five more. In light of the Colorado Supreme Court denying cert on the bridge enterprise fee, though, it might be possible to utilize additional fees. But that'd have to be narrowly tailored to some specific need.

Which is why I am actually curious which large projects you think might not work with tolling and/or private money.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

Why in God's name would any legislator put their name on a tax hike in Colorado? Can you name one statewide tax hike that's passed since 1992?

Why is it being done in other states? I'm unaware of any voter backlash in states that have raised their gas taxes.

First of all, I don't know whether gas taxes are set up as an enterprise fund or not? If not, then the legislators would be merely giving the voters the option to decide for themselves. You want crappy or good roads? Do voters want tolls on Main Street?

Is Colorado a growing state with growing needs? Is Colorado like other states where regardless of growth there are ongoing maintenance and repair needs? Normally deferring such needs becomes a bit of a Ponzi scheme which just adds (significantly) to the ultimate fix.

If it weren't for TABOR perhaps funds from the General Fund could be more easily accessed. As it stands the additional $100 million from the General Fund plus the FASTER funds will be used for the I-70 (and C-470) projects (I believe). CDOT is responsible for maintaining and preserving over 9,000 miles of roads.

I'd assume the the challenge for all states who are being asked to shoulder more of the responsibility for their own road systems is why other states have been raising their gas taxes?

Given the higher cost for maintenance and repairs (not to mention the inconvenience) for cars & trucks that drive on bad as apposed to good roads normally makes the cost of another nickel or dime per gallon of gas a preferred tradeoff.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

In light of the Colorado Supreme Court denying cert on the bridge enterprise fee...

What is that and what does it mean? Does it mean they tried to put FASTER fees into an enterprise fund but it was disallowed?

Is the cost of CDOT maintenance equipment (like snowplows, etc) going up or down?

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

I do think we're benefited by the fact that no elected official has a say on HOV under Colorado law

Now that does make a difference.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Why is it being done in other states? I'm unaware of any voter backlash in states that have raised their gas taxes.

Most states do not need voter approval to raise the gas tax - the legislature can do it. It's one thing to vote for it in the legislature and then hope the people (i) don't notice and (ii) don't kick you out of office for it. There's strength in numbers. It's quite another thing to stick your neck out and actively campaign in favor of a tax increase. Which is the type of leadership it would take for such an increase to ever pass.

Originally Posted by TakeFive

If not, then the legislators would be merely giving the voters the option to decide for themselves. You want crappy or good roads? Do voters want tolls on Main Street?

Again, there's no champion. "Let the voters choose" is a very weak argument. Legislators take the job of referring things to voters very seriously, because they know that, to a certain extent, if they refer a measure, it is presumed they support it.

Nobody believes - and polls do not support - the notion that you can vote in favor of putting a tax hike on the ballot while not supporting it. I don't think you are understanding just how terribly gas tax increases poll.

Also, people expect something-for-nothing because they do not believe or trust that there's truly a deficit of funding available. People dislike tolls, but it fits with their pre-conceived notion of government screwing them, which is why they are actually easier to implement. So long as as there is the option to not pay them, opposition is largely muted and limited to the "Lexus lane" arguments. Which also supports pre-conceived notions of rich people screwing them.

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Given the higher cost for maintenance and repairs (not to mention the inconvenience) for cars & trucks that drive on bad as apposed to good roads normally makes the cost of another nickel or dime per gallon of gas a preferred tradeoff.

Polls disagree. It's not even ambiguous.

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Is the cost of CDOT maintenance equipment (like snowplows, etc) going up or down?

Sure, but it's not like revenues are entirely stagnant.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

What is that and what does it mean? Does it mean they tried to put FASTER fees into an enterprise fund but it was disallowed?

The TABOR Foundation challenged the bridge enterprise surcharges as not being a valid fee. They lost big in the court of appeals and the supreme court recently declined to hear the case. (Although there was some ambiguity on that at first - the AP and washington post somehow incorrectly picked up that the court would hear the case, and then had to retract it.)

[seventwenty]

Bunt is referring to this case, FYI: TABOR Foundation v Colorado Bridge Inst No. 13CA1621 (2014)

One big issue is whether a bridge surcharge was a tax, and thus needed to go to the voters b/c TABOR, or a fee, which means no vote. The Court of Appeals stated the surcharge was a fee. It also held that the CBE is a TABOR-exempt enterprise. So it can issue bonds without a statewide vote.

It's a short, easy read and examines when something is a tax and when it is a fee.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Why is it being done in other states? I'm unaware of any voter backlash in states that have raised their gas taxes.

TABOR, TABOR, TABOR, TABOR. No other state in the Union has taken away the legislatures ability to raise taxes and that reflects in the ability of other states, even red ones, to cut and raise taxes as they see fit. That's pretty much impossible to do in Colorado. As Bunt mentioned, it's a lot easier, realistic is probably a better description, for a legislature to govern rather than campaign for a tax.

[seventwenty]

Bunt, in reading TABOR foundation v CBE, I see that the relationship between charge and service, the final prong on the tax v fee debate, is important. Charges are fees when the primary purpose is to defray the costs of services to those charged or to finance a particular service utilities by those who must pay the charge. (Citations, quotes and format omitted b/c phone).

It doesn't matter, like the foundation asserted, if only parts of the state will receive the utility, as not all counties needed bridge repair under the CBE. The CoA noted this imposing a wide fee that will not benefit every property subject to the fee doesn't turn it into a tax. (The Bloom and Barber cases). Plus fees may be legally imposed on people who will not receive a benefit from the fee, per The Loup-Miller case. All that matters is a reasonable relation, at least for this final prong.

So, why can't the General Assembly make a 5 cent fee on every gallon of gas to finance a particular service related to roads, say road expansion? Assume the other 2 prongs are met: The enabling legislation states this fee is for a particular purpose, and the primary purpose of the fee is to raise revenue to expand roads and nothing else.

Per this case, I think this 5 cent fee I ask about is legal.

Or would I also need a TABOR exempt entity to oversee the fee?

[TakeFive]

bunt_q... Polls disagree. It's not even ambiguous.

Did you hear where Donald Trump was leading the polls in the Republican primary?

I grasp the sentiment of polls showing people prefer not to pay higher taxes. What a surprise.
Did the polls ask if they preferred tolls on Federal, Hampden/Havana, Colfax, Belleview, Arapahoe, Wadsworth etc. and all the mountain and plains roads over another nickel or dime of gas tax?

The last vote I can recall was the T-REX project which voters passed by a comfortable margin IIRC.

Shailen Bhatt had this to say.

Shailen Bhatt, the new executive director of the Colorado Department of Transportation, didn’t mince words about the state of Colorado’s highways... “The state of the state on transportation: it’s terrible in Colorado,” said Bhatt, who started his job heading CDOT in February. “In Colorado today, we have a transportation crisis on our hands.”

But Colorado roads on the whole are pretty good, are they not?

Colorado ranks 37th in the nation in terms of pavement conditions, he said, referencing the number of potholes that dot roads around the state.

Oh boy so Colorado is better than 13 other states. Are those the ones that have been raising their gas tax?

BTW, can anybody confirm whether Colorado's gas tax is part of an enterprise fund or or just the General Fund?

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Did you hear where Donald Trump was leading the polls in the Republican primary?

And you might have noticed, not a lot of the GOP establishment wants to take him on, even in the face of some pretty ludicrous stuff. So apparently polls are having some impact. Look, I'm not saying I like the current state of affairs. Just that it is what it is. I can't wave a magic wand and give elected officials cojones - I don't live in the world of what should be. I accept that we have TABOR, abortion is legal, guns are an individual right and the 2nd amendment is never going away, and politicians don't take big risks; these are not things worth arguing, because they cannot be changed, If you think a gas tax is so popular, then let's get it on the ballot as an initiative. It doesn't have to be a referred measure. Good luck collecting signatures, though.

Originally Posted by TakeFive

BTW, can anybody confirm whether Colorado's gas tax is part of an enterprise fund or or just the General Fund?

Neither, those revenues go into the Highway Users Tax Fund.

http://www.colorado.gov/cs/Satellite.../1251592046960

Distribution process:

http://www.colorado.gov/cs/Satellite...&ssbinary=true

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

The last vote I can recall was the T-REX project which voters passed by a comfortable margin IIRC.

Which wasn't a tax hike, it was a bond authorization, and it was only for a certain multi-county district versus statewide.

A tax increase hasn't been approved statewide in Colorado in nearly thirty years since TABOR was passed. It's pretty much impossible to do so in Colorado, which was precisely what Doug Bruce intended- and why he should be castrated, immolated, drawn, and quartered.

[TakeFive]

wong... gotcha. Obviously the money to pay the bonds back comes from somewhere so they did approve of this Big Boy.

bunt... Thanks for the source links. I was thinking that the HUTF would be outside the General Fund ie. an enterprise fund. Regardless of definitions it looks like the last time the Colorado Legislature increased the gas tax was in 1991 so it appears to be outside of TABOR.

A year ago now Gov. Nathan Deal of Georgia ran on a "no new taxes" talking point. This year they fell just short of raising the revenue for roads by a cool billion dollars per year. Although they fell a little short of the goal, they did raise a whole lot, mostly via a gas tax increase. Gov. Deal led the parade. So much for the silliness of politics.

It just takes a little leadership.

Using 7.5 cents as the mid-point it appears that would raise about $180 million a year. Divide that up among the various jurisdictions and you'd have support from mayors etc. etc. Even though tolling has worked well so far I see the opportunities as being more one-off projects.