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  #6821  
Old Posted May 1, 2014, 7:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Scottk View Post
The sidewalk is still way better if there arent any pedestrians, however

See this is why people hate cyclists.
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  #6822  
Old Posted May 1, 2014, 7:54 PM
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I can see why the sidewalk would be preferable there.

1. It's on a highway. It's not a low-speed urban street with tons of peds, but rather a suburban highway with high speed cars and very few peds. Regardless of the presence of a cycletrack, that inherently makes the street less comfortable for cyclists and the sidewalk more comfortable.

2. The cycletrack intersections are dangerously under-designed. Cars turning off the Baseline Rd main lanes onto a side street are more dangerous here than on usual urban streets because the speed of the road plus lower than usual crossing treatments to remind drivers to watch for cyclists. The result is surely a lot of cars whipping through turns at pretty high speeds, without looking to see if there are any bikers. Compare the street crossings on this Baseline Rd cycletrack with the street crossings on a typical cycletrack in Chicago, Seattle, Vancouver, or even Denver and you'll see the difference. Or here's the engineering standard if you prefer technical guidance to examples. For a layout like this you ideally should have a separate turn signal phase for cars, and really really need to at least paint the intersections. The fact that it's a high-speed suburban arterial makes it even more important here than a lower-speed urban street.

It might've made more sense to figure out an off-street trail for that corridor, using some combination of Baseline's sidewalks and frontage roads. But ease-of-implementation and affordability are key factors in all bike planning, and I can see how easy it was to slap some cheap flexposts to an existing bike lane and basically call it a day. I'm 100% in favor of easy things like that. But I'd still like to see something at the intersections. That's exactly what green paint is for, but even some dashed white lines would be better than nothing at all.
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Last edited by Cirrus; May 1, 2014 at 8:06 PM.
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  #6823  
Old Posted May 1, 2014, 11:12 PM
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That is a pilot study. We had some people from the planning dept. come and speak to one of my classes earlier this spring. Implementing a cycle-track turns out to be a very complicated endeavor. It requires not only the approval of funding for design and construction, but also the approval of the city's traffic engineers and input from public safety officials like Police Officers who aren't as versed in these kinds of designs as planners. Since city government is conservative because of its political nature, progress can be very slow in convincing the correct people to allow an innovation like this to happen.

I don't recall the exact circumstances under which this was implemented, but they are essentially just testing how a physical barrier affects safety statistics. It didn't require any heavy construction and is easily removable, so it wasn't that hard of a sell. All they really did was put in concrete barriers where the painted bike lane buffer used to be. Nothing else changed. The idea is that if safety improves, or if the community tries it and likes it, they can make the case to further roll-out this kind of design and make it a part of the streetscape. They are also doing a similar study with green bike lanes, but only through "conflict zones" for the time being... though I would love to see the bike lanes painted THROUGH intersections, which is part of what makes Amsterdam's system so intuitive to cyclists.
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  #6824  
Old Posted May 1, 2014, 11:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventwenty View Post
See this is why people hate cyclists.
Hey at least I said I only use the sidewalk of there aren't any pedestrians!

I just hate being so close to cars in my bike. 9/10 times I either use the baseline frontage road or take the sidewalk through this area. It just doesn't feel safe otherwise
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  #6825  
Old Posted May 2, 2014, 8:02 PM
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Brighton Blvd. Phase II (Cross-sections) report is up.

The bike crowd might like some of the renderings. Bunt will like the traffic lanes.

HERE (PDF)
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  #6826  
Old Posted May 2, 2014, 9:03 PM
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Originally Posted by PLANSIT View Post
Brighton Blvd. Phase II (Cross-sections) report is up.

The bike crowd might like some of the renderings. Bunt will like the traffic lanes.

HERE (PDF)
Beautifully shortsighted, as expected. Good thing we're maintaining the roadway width - we're going to need it, given the lack of transit vision. Here's a fun exercise - do a control-f and compare the instances of the word "bicycle" versus "transit." Judging by that, you could almost be excused for thinking bicycles are a mode of transportation a meaningful number of people use on any given day. Planners - always doing what's in vogue, whether it makes any rational sense or not.
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  #6827  
Old Posted May 2, 2014, 10:09 PM
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Ah yes the mighty RTD route 48. I cannot believe that route got the short end of the stick when it came to planning on Brighton Blvd. That route is so vital to our transit infrastructure right now and in the future that anything other than an exclusive ROW paved in gold (with platinum lining of course) would be too little for it.

These trend-setting hucksters at the Denver Planning department should be ashamed of themselves for deceiving the public into thinking cycling the mile or so to downtown is a viable form of transportation.
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  #6828  
Old Posted May 2, 2014, 10:32 PM
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Ah yes the mighty RTD route 48. I cannot believe that route got the short end of the stick when it came to planning on Brighton Blvd. That route is so vital to our transit infrastructure right now and in the future that anything other than an exclusive ROW paved in gold (with platinum lining of course) would be too little for it.

These trend-setting hucksters at the Denver Planning department should be ashamed of themselves for deceiving the public into thinking cycling the mile or so to downtown is a viable form of transportation.
I sense sarcasm. And yet, folks aren't doing it. When I see developers screaming for more parking requirement reductions, then I'll concede we've moved past an imaginary world of building for how we think people should get around, into a reality where we're building for how they actually choose to.

The reality is, the only think we really need are sidewalks, roads and parking. Because until you do real transit, driving is how people are going to get around Denver. The rest is fantasy-land.
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  #6829  
Old Posted May 2, 2014, 11:16 PM
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Luckily we didn't listen when people made the same criticism of transit, either. Now noboby says that about transit anymore. I wonder how that happened.
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  #6830  
Old Posted May 3, 2014, 12:30 AM
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Man, I only put this up to get a rise out of Bunt. Great success.
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  #6831  
Old Posted May 3, 2014, 1:07 AM
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Originally Posted by bunt_q View Post
I sense sarcasm. And yet, folks aren't doing it. When I see developers screaming for more parking requirement reductions, then I'll concede we've moved past an imaginary world of building for how we think people should get around, into a reality where we're building for how they actually choose to.

The reality is, the only think we really need are sidewalks, roads and parking. Because until you do real transit, driving is how people are going to get around Denver. The rest is fantasy-land.
Glad that you sensed the sarcasm I was laying it on as thick as I could (it's tough on the internet).

Developers IMHO are a trailing indicator of how people are doing things. They have to be conservative when it comes to multi-million dollar investments otherwise they wouldn't get funding. It took us decades to get to the point where developers were building an absurd amount of parking, and it will take decades to get the parking quantity back down to a reasonable level.

I believe in what you would call 'real transit' as an option. If a grade separated light rail option was on the table for Colfax I would not only be out there collecting signatures I would donate money for the effort to pass the tax. Even without a bike lane as part of the plan on Colfax (which should never happen although I do think 16th should be a bike blvd eventually).

However, This is Brighton Blvd a constrained former industrial corridor with a pre-existing bus route that has one of the lowest ridership counts of buses that go to the CBD. Yes the ongoing development should change that ridership but it will take a decade to justify a frequent bus on that corridor, then several more years to justify enhanced bus, and by the time we are discussing dedicated ROW the infrastructure built by this plan will be crumbling. In the meantime should these people who move there and want to go downtown wait a half hour for a bus at peak times? Walk 1.5 miles each way? Drive and pay market rates for parking? Or ride a bike?
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  #6832  
Old Posted May 3, 2014, 3:47 AM
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However, This is Brighton Blvd a constrained former industrial corridor with a pre-existing bus route that has one of the lowest ridership counts of buses that go to the CBD. Yes the ongoing development should change that ridership but it will take a decade to justify a frequent bus on that corridor, then several more years to justify enhanced bus, and by the time we are discussing dedicated ROW the infrastructure built by this plan will be crumbling. In the meantime should these people who move there and want to go downtown wait a half hour for a bus at peak times? Walk 1.5 miles each way? Drive and pay market rates for parking? Or ride a bike?
This is an excellent point, but unfortunately it's also the best argument there is for maintaining parking requirements. Even most folks who are happy to cycle don't use it as a 12 month solution. It's a real problem if we are looking at 5,000 residential units in a corridor that's outside the reasonable range of walkability, but we are not willing to lead with transit investments. There is sadly a reason folks still build one parking space per bedroom. Denargo Market is effectively no less auto dependent than where I live. And that's sad. But not so sad that many folks are going to live there car free through the winter. Developers aren't lagging on things like that - they're not spending that kind of money on parking unless they think they need it. The Census is also not a lagging indicator, and you're not seeing a very huge drop in automobile ownership rates, despite all the press about young people doing it differently, the numbers don't really bear it out, not here.

The Source is a great example - how successful do you think that'll be if they lose their state-fair-sized free dirt parking lot?
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  #6833  
Old Posted May 3, 2014, 3:48 AM
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Man, I only put this up to get a rise out of Bunt. Great success.
Haha, glad I could oblige. It's just typical feel-good marketing nonsense coming out of CPD, so I give it the typical response.
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  #6834  
Old Posted May 3, 2014, 1:22 PM
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Haha, glad I could oblige. It's just typical feel-good marketing nonsense coming out of CPD, so I give it the typical response.
Yeah, but CPD doesn't do transportation planning. And this study wasn't done by CPD.

And, unfortunately for you, this isn't marketing nonsense.
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  #6835  
Old Posted May 3, 2014, 1:50 PM
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Yeah, but CPD doesn't do transportation planning. And this study wasn't done by CPD.

And, unfortunately for you, this isn't marketing nonsense.
Let's take bets on Brighton Blvd corridor mode splits in 2025, shall we? I bet bicycles don't break 10%. Average weekday. How much money you willing to put that they will? (We'll inflation adjust the bet, so make it in 2014 dollars ). I'd do to 2035 also - that bikes never reach 10% mode share - but I don't know that the forum will be around.

(The streetscape aspect are obviously real and look real good, but I still find all of the raw meat for the bicycle lobby to be just that. But not anything substantive.)

I just don't get the appeal of human powered machines - isn't it a sign of progress that we don't have to sweat to propel ourselves anymore? Next thing you know, you folks are going to want me pedaling under my office desk to power my computer too. And you all call me the Neanderthal!

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  #6836  
Old Posted May 3, 2014, 2:18 PM
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The appeal is bikes are the most convenient mode for many trips. They extend and speed up walking without requiring a car. Any trip that's twice as far as you'd want to walk is generally easier by bike than any other option.

Electric-assist bikes are a growing segment, BTW. Nobody except the lrycra-clad Lance-wannabes cares about the human-powered element.
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  #6837  
Old Posted May 3, 2014, 2:24 PM
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And how do you make the 1-2 mile trip in winter? (If not transit.). And "dress warmer" or "suck it up" is not an acceptable answer - people are allowed to not want to be physically uncomfortable.
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  #6838  
Old Posted May 3, 2014, 3:11 PM
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That's your argument? A 2-mile trip would be 15 minutes, max. Depending on the temperature, I'd still bike 2 miles than wait for transit in this town. Both would require you to "dress warmer" and "suck it up" while being physically uncomfortable.
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  #6839  
Old Posted May 3, 2014, 3:53 PM
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That's your argument? A 2-mile trip would be 15 minutes, max. Depending on the temperature, I'd still bike 2 miles than wait for transit in this town. Both would require you to "dress warmer" and "suck it up" while being physically uncomfortable.
That's my point, people don't do either, because our transit sucks and cycling is miserable - they drive. But you can't solve that with cycling alone - it's inherently unfixable through cycling for half the year. Transit could work year round, but nobody's advocating for that. I'd settle for both.

But the current cycling-first policy is actually a driving-first policy, that's all I'm saying.
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  #6840  
Old Posted May 3, 2014, 3:55 PM
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Bunt, stop doing this:

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