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  #61  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2016, 5:33 AM
isaidso isaidso is offline
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What about St. Leonard in Montreal? How does that compare in size and % Italian to Woodbridge and south shore Staten Island? In 2001 there were 27,590 people out of 68,604 total residents in St. Leonard who were classified as Italian, or 39.7%. Is it still a strong Italian enclave or has it eroded over the last 15 years?
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  #62  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2016, 5:45 AM
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Still going strong. 28,000 Italian Canadians (25.9%) live Saint Leonard-Saint Michel federal riding.
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  #63  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2016, 5:54 AM
Docere Docere is offline
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One Canadian city with a large Italian population is Sault Ste. Marie in northern Ontario where the community dates to the turn of the 20th century. About 20% of the city is of Italian descent. Its West End was a thriving Italian area, but fell victim to "urban renewal" efforts in the late 1950s.

https://www.sootoday.com/columns/rem...ustling-185021
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  #64  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2016, 6:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Docere View Post
North Beach, San Francisco:

Italian ancestry: 573 4.7%
Speak Italian: 69 0.6%
If you're using that statistic atlas website, keep in mind that their neighborhood boundaries aren't entirely accurate. Their definition of North beach only includes part of North beach, for example. Not that the real North beach is any more impressive in terms of italian ancestry/italian speakers... if you go by the zip code 94133, which includes all of North beach (plus parts of telegraph hill, fisherman's wharf, russian hill), the amount of people with Italian ancestry rises to 1,123 (but the percentage drops to 4.0%), and those speaking italian at home rises to a whopping 91 (and drops to 0.3%)

SF's only zip code with more than 1% of people speaking Italian at home is the Marina district:

94123 (the Marina):
Italian ancestry - 2,978 (12.2%)
Italian speaking - 397 (1.2%)

Here are the other SF zip codes with at least 5% Italian ancestry:

94114 (the Castro/Noe Valley/Corona Heights/Duboce Triangle):
Italian ancestry - 2,906 (9.3%)
Italian speaking - 186 (0.6%)

94129 (the Presidio):
Italian ancestry - 249 (8.9%)
Italian speaking - 23 (0.9%)

94127 (West Portal/Ingleside terrace/Monterey Heights/Sunnyside/Sherwood Forest/Miraloma Park):
Italian ancestry - 1,461 (7.5%)
Italian speaking - 51 (0.3%)

94117 (the Haight/Lower Haight/Panhandle/Alamo Square/Cole Valley):
Italian ancestry - 2,854 (6.9%)
Italian speaking - 190 (0.5%)

94109 (Fisherman's Wharf/Russian Hill/Pacific Heights/Cathedral Hill/Nob Hill/Tenderloin):
Italian ancestry - 3,768 (6.8%)
Italian speaking - 291 (0.5%)

94131 (Twin Peaks/Diamond Heights/Noe Valley/Glen Park/Sunnyside):
Italian ancestry - 1,740 (6.5%)
Italian speaking - 105 (0.4%)

94115 (Pacific Heights/Japantown/the Fillmore):
Italian ancestry - 2,000 (5.9%)
Italian speaking - 91 (0.3%)

94158 (Mission Bay/Dogpatch):
Italian ancestry - 305 (5.8%)
Italian speaking - too few to show up on the site (under 20)

94118 (Inner Richmond):
Italian ancestry - 2,294 (5.7%)
Italian speaking - 226 (0.6%)

94110 (the Mission/Bernal Heights):
Italian ancestry - 3,584 (5.0%)
Italian speaking - 468 (0.7%)

94107 (Potrero Hill/Mission Bay/South Beach):
Italian ancestry - 1,404 (5.0%)
Italian speaking - 184 (0.7%)


The Mission district seems to be the second most Italian neighborhood, after the Marina district.

The ten census tracts in SF with the most Italian speakers are:

012700 (the Marina) - 164 (4.7%)
040100 (the Richmond) - 146 (3.4%)
012602 (the Marina) - 98 (3.2%)
022903 (the Mission) - 83 (2.9%)
022902 (the Mission) - 63 (2.7%)
013101 (Pacific Heights) - 95 (2.7%)
020700 (the Mission) - 121 (2.2%)
017700 (the Mission/SOMA) - 32 (2.2%)
016100 (the Fillmore) - 96 (2.0%)
047901 (The Richmond) - 120 (2.0%)

source: http://statisticalatlas.com/place/Ca...cisco/Overview

As you can see, North Beach isn't that Italian by SF standards. Though it does have the reputation, the history, a huge amount of Italian restaurants, and Italian flags painted on all the telephone poles.

Last edited by tech12; Apr 26, 2016 at 7:11 AM.
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  #65  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2016, 5:50 PM
Docere Docere is offline
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Thanks for that. As I suspected, SF doesn't have anything that can be called an Italian enclave.

And it looks like that Italian speakers in SF are mostly wealthy immigrants?
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  #66  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2016, 7:12 PM
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Thanks for that. As I suspected, SF doesn't have anything that can be called an Italian enclave.

And it looks like that Italian speakers in SF are mostly wealthy immigrants?
It's a mix of wealthy immigrants most likely (maybe a few poor ones too, who knows), plus old timers of various income levels.
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  #67  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2016, 9:14 PM
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An Italian American scholar in the Bay Area compares the Italian presence in California and NY/NJ:

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What struck me is the way a small town, like, say, Nutley, New Jersey, seems to have become (or always was?) a kind of Little Italy all its own. That when Italian Americans did their part in the great white flight to the suburbs in the decades following the Second World War, those in the New York area appeared to have taken a good part of the commerce and culture of their urban neighborhoods with them. (I realize I’m making some broad generalizations here.)

This phenomenon did not happen in California, even though the state had a number of Italian American urban neighborhoods that disappeared or drastically changed when Italian Americans moved out of the cities. Why does Italian American identity remain intact more recognizably in Eastern suburbs?

There are two straightforward answers: demographics and geography. California’s 1.5 million Italian Americans just don’t compare to the nearly 4.5 million in New York and New Jersey. Plus, New York’s relative nearness to Italy arguably allows for commerce and culture to move back and forth more easily.

However, there’s a more interesting possibility, one that requires much more careful study than is called for in a simple blog post: that is, the role of the (often-overlooked) second major wave of Italian immigration to the U.S. after the Second World War. Sure, California received its share of post-WW II immigrants (and they’re still coming today—Silicon Valley is full of Italians with H1-B visas), but not to the same degree as on the East Coast. Further—and yes, I’m being a little coy here—but I’ll take a wild guess that the influx of new immigrants in the post-war decades reinvigorated Italian American communities in greater New York in multiple ways: from customs around food, to the use of Italian and dialects, to all sorts of vernacular displays of culture.
http://www.iitaly.org/bloggers/1761/...nian-goes-east
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  #68  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2016, 9:21 PM
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Vancouver doesn't have a very large Italian population - about 75,000 or so. It did have a Little Italy type district on the east side of the city in what is now the trendy Commercial Drive area and the Italian population spread out east to North Burnaby.

Commercial Drive can't really be called a Little Italy anymore, the closest is probably the Burnaby Heights area (the closest thing Vancouver has to something like St. Clair West or the Danforth in Toronto). There are some tracts in this area that are 12-15% Italian but Vancouver doesn't really have a large enough Italian population for enclaves like those that exist in Eastern cities.

http://www.vancouversun.com/ethnicit...001/story.html
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  #69  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2016, 12:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Docere View Post
An Italian American scholar in the Bay Area compares the Italian presence in California and NY/NJ:
This is probably all true, though I would also add that the Northeastern U.S. seems to also be the most ostensibly "ethnic" part of the U.S. in terms of self-identification.

It's hard to explain, but people are really into their ethnic roots, sometimes to a fault. You see Puerto Rican and Dominican and Israeli and Italian and Irish flags on homes, bumper stickers and the like, and I don't get quite that sense of "rah rah" ethnic identification in other parts of the country, even in areas with similar levels of diversity.

CA is crazy diverse but more ethnically fluid, if that makes sense. I'm always struck at the level of assimilation and all-American feel in the vast Mexican suburbs of LA. Go someplace like Whittier or Pico Rivera or Downey and it looks like archetypical American suburbia, except it isn't. Go to an all Hispanic suburb in the NYC area, and it is definitely not assimilating in the same manner.
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  #70  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2016, 12:45 AM
King Kill 'em King Kill 'em is offline
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White Southerners, the vast majority of British descent. English ancestry was the largest reported ancestry in 1980 at about 50 million, but it dropped nearly in half as Southern whites started, effectively, writing "I'm AMERICAN Goddamn It!" on the census.

So today German ancestry is the largest reported and a myth has developed that white Americans are mostly of German rather than British descent.
They're probably more Irish than British. My dad's family had always thought they were more British than Irish, but when my aunt did some research we found out we were far more Irish than British. I think it may be the same for many other White Americans considering how many Irish came over between approximately the 1830s and the early 1900s.
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  #71  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2016, 12:46 AM
King Kill 'em King Kill 'em is offline
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This is probably all true, though I would also add that the Northeastern U.S. seems to also be the most ostensibly "ethnic" part of the U.S. in terms of self-identification.

It's hard to explain, but people are really into their ethnic roots, sometimes to a fault. You see Puerto Rican and Dominican and Israeli and Italian and Irish flags on homes, bumper stickers and the like, and I don't get quite that sense of "rah rah" ethnic identification in other parts of the country, even in areas with similar levels of diversity.

CA is crazy diverse but more ethnically fluid, if that makes sense. I'm always struck at the level of assimilation and all-American feel in the vast Mexican suburbs of LA. Go someplace like Whittier or Pico Rivera or Downey and it looks like archetypical American suburbia, except it isn't. Go to an all Hispanic suburb in the NYC area, and it is definitely not assimilating in the same manner.
Well in LA you still have low density Mexican neighborhoods that are poorer and not assimilating like Sylmar and Pacoima.
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  #72  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2016, 1:47 AM
isaidso isaidso is offline
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Originally Posted by Docere View Post
White Southerners, the vast majority of British descent. English ancestry was the largest reported ancestry in 1980 at about 50 million, but it dropped nearly in half as Southern whites started, effectively, writing "I'm AMERICAN Goddamn It!" on the census.
In Canada, it's francophones in Quebec that put down 'Canadian' on the census. Anglophone Canadians are far more likely to still associate themselves with the country of their ancestry, be it Chinese, German, Italian, etc. With all the talk of Quebec separatism over the last 3 decades you'd think the Quebecois would be the last in Canada to write down 'Canadian'.

There's also another issue at play. I believe 'Canadian' is listed as the #1 'ethnicity' on the census or it will be very soon. I got tired of ticking off 4 boxes on the census. It occurred to me that 'Canadian' made the most sense for me to put a check mark next to. I'm a mix of many things and people who are just Italian or just Finnish are a dying breed. I imagine a ton of Canadians tick 'Canadian' these days for the same reason I do.

Canadian isn't recognized as an ethnicity today but if we continue to mix we'll develop a very distinct look to us. I
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  #73  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2016, 2:09 AM
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Originally Posted by James Bond Agent 007 View Post
Kansas City used to have a halfway decent Little Italy in an area just north of downtown, but to be honest, I find few remnants of any Italian-ness around here at all, even in the suburbs. They seem to have been almost completely absorbed into all the other ethnicities.
last time i was at garozzo's in columbus park, there was still a mirror on the corner of the block allegedly so guys could see if someone was waiting for them round the corner...know what i mean? do you understand...what i'm trying to tell you? after they had a few drinks and a bucket of that pasta. like a vestigal tail of the old neighborhood. perhaps you know the history of the cosa nostra there on the north end of kcmo? the river quay...the bombs/war in the 70s/80s?

there were things.
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  #74  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2016, 3:07 AM
Docere Docere is offline
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An interesting thing about Philadelphia is that is a pretty contiguous "Little Italy" area, stretching from the Italian Market deeper into South Philadelphia. The Market itself isn't Italian as it used to be - but they didn't go very far.

Last edited by Docere; Apr 27, 2016 at 3:36 AM.
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  #75  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2016, 12:43 PM
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An interesting thing about Philadelphia is that is a pretty contiguous "Little Italy" area, stretching from the Italian Market deeper into South Philadelphia. The Market itself isn't Italian as it used to be - but they didn't go very far.
I'm actually trying to find it on Streetview. Could you give us rough boundaries, because those blocks just east of Broad don't appear to be very Italian, at least judging by the people and businesses. I'm trying to find salumerias, bakeries, social clubs, and other obvious Italian markers.

South Philly, East of Broad, south of the Italian Market, appears to be very racially mixed in the western parts, and looks fairly "tough", but then gets much whiter (and seemingly nicer) closer to the river, it seems. The whiter parts are more Irish, I think. This is just based on Streetview exploration, haven't looked at Census.

Will be in Philly, for work, in a couple of days, and actually want to do some South Philly exploring.
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  #76  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2016, 1:14 PM
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as far as i can tell, "the hill" in st. louis is the most intact "little italy" in the inland united states.

here is a late winter photothread from this year of mine:
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=220745

they don't call it "little italy," here, though. it's just an italian-american neighborhood with 100 year old businesses.







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Last edited by Centropolis; Apr 27, 2016 at 1:42 PM.
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  #77  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2016, 1:59 PM
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There's also another issue at play. I believe 'Canadian' is listed as the #1 'ethnicity' on the census or it will be very soon. I got tired of ticking off 4 boxes on the census. It occurred to me that 'Canadian' made the most sense for me to put a check mark next to. I'm a mix of many things and people who are just Italian or just Finnish are a dying breed. I imagine a ton of Canadians tick 'Canadian' these days for the same reason I do.
yep, same for me down here in the states.

on a genetic level i guess i'm techincially a german/french/irish/scottish/english-american, but what the fuck does that even mean when europe itself is a genetic hodge-podge stretching back for millennia? and if we really want to be genetically technical and accurate, then we're all africans anyways. at a certain point, what's the point?

genes aren't relevant, the only thing that matters is culture, and i sure as shit ain't culturally german or french or irish or scottish (well, except for the whole scotch obsession) or english (other than the larger global anglosphere culture that germinated from england). the only national ethnicity that i possess that has any real cultural meaning what-so-ever is "american". so it's not about sticking it to the census bureau and screaming "I'm AMERICAN Goddamn It!", it's really just the only honest answer i can give them. i'm a textbook american mutt.

now my wife, she's fully italian-american, all 8 of her great grandparents were born in italy/sciliy. she has no qualms claiming an italian-american identity because her family didn't mutt itself up here in the states that way that my family did, so they still hold on to some of those old world traditions and customs that give some amount of meaning to their italian-american identity. however, because she chose to procreate with me, our children will be even more mutted than i am. they'll never be "italian-american" the way that their mother is. they'll just be "regular-old-boring-americans", like me.
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  #78  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2016, 2:00 PM
SPonteK SPonteK is offline
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last time i was at garozzo's in columbus park, there was still a mirror on the corner of the block allegedly so guys could see if someone was waiting for them round the corner...know what i mean? do you understand...what i'm trying to tell you? after they had a few drinks and a bucket of that pasta. like a vestigal tail of the old neighborhood. perhaps you know the history of the cosa nostra there on the north end of kcmo? the river quay...the bombs/war in the 70s/80s?

there were things.
While Columbus Park - which was for most of it's history was just called "The North End" - is still the part of town (along with River Market) in which you are most likely to find a concentration of Italian-themed (for lack of a better word) storefronts, along with River Market, KC's Italian (almost exclusively Sicilian) community quickly expanded from the North End to the streetcar suburbs of Northeast, which, as you know, is kind of KC's Queens. And while many of KC's Italians moved into the Northland suburbs in the last 30 years, Northeast remains the most Italian neighborhood in the city, with census tracts that hold the same concentration of Italian-Americans as the Hill.

Obviously, Northeast is a lot bigger than the Hill geographically, as it's really more of a district or collection of neighborhoods, than a single neighborhood, and you are much less likely to find Italian-themed retail, but there's a swath of the city from the River Market due east to the edge of the industrial bottoms of the Blue River that remains largely Italian owned, and if you enter a bar, a bike shop, an auto garage, a slum-apartment building or cut-up rental house, etc., chances are you are entering an Italian-American owned operation in that swath of the city.

It doesn't feel as touristy as the Hill, or as enclavely, it's certainly not a monoculturally-oriented or identified, and I don't think it will be around long-term in the same way the Hill will be, but it's every bit as "Italian".
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  #79  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2016, 2:07 PM
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  #80  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2016, 2:32 PM
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The Hill in St. Louis is still over 80% Italian.
Hahaha.
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