Which of these two factors do you think of more when you consider a city diverse?

[Capsicum]

Since this is a heavy topic of debate when it comes to what cities are more diverse than others.

1. High cultural representation. (eg. linguistic diversity such as Italians who speak Italian still, or Chinese people who can speak Chinese etc., or lots of religious groups like Muslims, Jews, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists etc., diversity in food, music etc. that are not assimilated, diasporas with connections to the home countries, whether that's in Africa, Asia or wherever)

2. Even representation of major racial/ancestry groups, even if these groups are assimilated. (For example, white or people of European origin, black or people of African origin, same goes with Asian, South American etc.).

[llamaorama]

Cities are at their best when they bring a lot of different kinds of people together and allow them to interact in various ways.

So representation is more important than proportionality.

[Capsicum]

Seems like people regularly switch back and forth between these two conceptions of diversity in my OP in various discussions.

For example, they'll say a city's diverse based on what's the % white, black, Asian, Hispanic etc.

vs.

Diverse based on groups that are more culturally/nationally/ethnically defined like Jamaican, Italian, Vietnamese etc.

Often including things like foreign born population, number of languages spoken, diverse restaurants, cultural festivals, religious diversity like churches, synagogues, mosques, temples etc. to argue a city is diverse.

[jd3189]

Both make a city diverse but the former makes a city even more diverse. The latter depends on the former. An American city could be 1/4 White, Black, Hispanic, and Asian but if everyone shared the exact same culture and aspects of life, it wouldn't be as diverse as a place that was not only divided like that but also had different ethnic and religious groups within those racial groups. The less assimilation, the more diversity.

[Vlajos]

Definitely both

[Docere]

The first is more important. If you prioritize the second, a city like Oakland would be more diverse than Toronto or London.

[10023]

Originally Posted by Docere

The first is more important. If you prioritize the second, a city like Oakland would be more diverse than Toronto or London.

I agree with this. Racial diversity is very superficial. There is a huge difference between black Americans and west African immigrants, and “Asian” captures like two-thirds of the world’s population.

[Docere]

According to a lot of Americans diversity means the "balance" between Whites, Blacks, Hispanics and Asians. In other words an AA-dominated Black population counts for just as much as all the nationalities in the Asian group.

[dimondpark]

Originally Posted by Docere

The first is more important. If you prioritize the second, a city like Oakland would be more diverse than Toronto or London.

Racially speaking, Oakland is more diverse than those 2 in my experience. The East Bay from hell, Hercules all the way down to Fremont is like the whole world...

Ethnically, I'll certainly defer to the other 2 tho, sure why not

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by 10023

I agree with this. Racial diversity is very superficial. There is a huge difference between black Americans and west African immigrants, and “Asian” captures like two-thirds of the world’s population.

In terms of the world's population, the most populated continent is Asia (which has the majority of the world's population), followed by Africa, then Europe.



But as far as I can tell, I can't think of any major world city that could demographically represent this.

What city has an Asian origin majority, the second largest group African origin, and third European origin?

Maybe somewhere in Trinidad or Guyana (where the population is almost evenly split between Asian origin (really mostly South Asian) and African origin).

[Docere]

Originally Posted by dimondpark

Racially speaking, Oakland is more diverse than those 2 in my experience. The East Bay from hell, Hercules all the way down to Fremont is like the whole world...

Ethnically, I'll certainly defer to the other 2 tho, sure why not

Is "Hispanic" a race? Is "Asian" a race?

[mhays]

The Census Dept. must view them as categories or groupings, not races.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Docere

According to a lot of Americans diversity means the "balance" between Whites, Blacks, Hispanics and Asians. In other words an AA-dominated Black population counts for just as much as all the nationalities in the Asian group.

But then, what to make of people whose ancestries are mixes of nationalities?

If a white American is part Irish part Italian, does this count as much as one single-nationality Irish person and one single-nationality Italian person?

Black Americans, for the most part, are likely a mix of different African "nationalities"(many African countries are products of colonialism and didn't exist until recently).

I guess the focus on culture to define an "ethnic group" makes sense though, not ancestry/genealogy in and of itself -- a mixed-race individual that has 3 "nationalities" in their ancestral heritage (say, Italian, Japanese and indigenous Mexican) would definitely count for racial diversity, but if they spoke only English, knew nothing of those cultures, would not count for cultural diversity. If that person spoke say Italian, Japanese and Spanish, and could cook cuisines from all three origins, that would count quite a lot for cultural diversity, on top of racial diversity!

Likewise, perhaps a Hasidic Jewish immigrant, a Jamaican practitioner of Rastafari, and a Vietnamese Buddhist count as three separate faith traditions and might count more for "cultural diversity" in a city than say a white, black and Asian person who all only speak English, think of themselves as only "American", and believe the same religion (let's say they all belong to say, the same Baptist church).

[Capsicum]

But the problem still arises that what's an individual "culture" is still just as fuzzy and ill-defined (or at least there's not a definition that all people can agree on) as what is a "race".

[Capsicum]

A culture-based definition would also favor cities with recently arrived immigrants versus cities with lots of native-born.

There would be a "drop" in diversity as soon as the immigration stops and the immigrants' kids assimilate (imagine a Chinese immigrant who speaks Chinese and cooks Chinese food counting as cultural diversity, but the immigrant's racially Asian kid who only speaks English and eats the exact same food as his white and black American neighbors and their kids, does not count), even if racial demographics did not change at all.

[dimondpark]

Originally Posted by Docere

Is "Hispanic" a race? Is "Asian" a race?

They are in America.

I like the way Canada has a 'visible minority' category.

Toronto for example, was 51% visible minority in 2016.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Toronto

Likewise 45% of London is White Briton.
https://www.economist.com/news/inter...t-white-flight

That might impress yall, but Oakland is only 27% Non Hispanic White.
https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fa...rnia/PST045216


Hence:
Visible Minorities 2016:
Oakland 73%
London 55%
Toronto 51%

And Oakland's visible minority population is very well divided evenly divided among Blacks, Hispanics and Asians-no group including Whites dominate or even come close to it.

Other US cities are like that too including New York btw.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by dimondpark

They are in America.

I like the way Canada has a 'visible minority' category.

Toronto for example, was 51% visible minority in 2016.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Toronto

Likewise 45% of London is White Briton.
https://www.economist.com/news/inter...t-white-flight

That might impress yall, but Oakland is only 27% Non Hispanic White.
https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fa...rnia/PST045216


Hence:
Visible Minorities 2016:
Oakland 73%
London 55%
Toronto 51%

And Oakland's visible minority population is very well divided evenly divided among Blacks, Hispanics and Asians-no group including Whites dominate or even come close to it.

Other US cities are like that too including New York btw.

Yeah, but virtually all the Blacks in Oakland are African American and most of the whites are non-ethnic native-born American. So those two groups aren't very diverse. The vast majority of the Hispanic population is Mexican. Only the Asian group is really that diverse and even there Chinese are half the Asian population.

Compare that to "racially balanced" Queens NY. Lots of Russians, Italians, Greeks etc. The Black population is heavily Caribbean. No group dominates the Asian and Hispanic populations.

Superficially Oakland looks "almost as diverse" as Queens, but it isn't even close.

[dimondpark]

Originally Posted by Docere

Yeah, but virtually all the Blacks in Oakland are African American and most of the whites are non-ethnic native-born American. So those two groups aren't very diverse. The vast majority of the Hispanic population is Mexican. Only the Asian group is really that diverse and even there Chinese are half the Asian population.

Compare that to "racially balanced" Queens NY. Lots of Russians, Italians, Greeks etc. The Black population is heavily Caribbean. No group dominates the Asian and Hispanic populations.

Superficially Oakland looks "almost as diverse" as Queens, but it isn't even close.

Right so as far as ethnic diversity, I already stated that London and Toronto are likely more diverse.

Otoh you appear almost upset that Oakland is in fact more racially diverse overall then the other 2-but its true.

As far as NYC, I already said that NYC is among other US cities that have a close to equal diversity among major groups.

Not sure what your gripe is?

[Ant131531]

I find it hilarious people on here are acting like Black and White Americans share a similar culture when that's pretty far from the truth.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by Ant131531

I find it hilarious people on here are acting like Black and White Americans share a similar culture when that's pretty far from the truth.

Who is saying they do? African Americans are a distinctive cultural group. But Black immigrant groups are distinct from AAs too and add to a city's diversity.