General Phoenix Metro Discussion Thread

[Jjs5056]

As far as somethingfast's list, here are a few thoughts:


1. Downtown Phoenix and Tucson both finally get new tallest(s). Phoenix could really, really use a signature tower. It makes me cringe a bit when I read that Tyson's Corner, VA (hotspot of activity in NoVa) is getting a new 470' tower and it will be one of 12 new hi-rises in that area which already has like 30,000,000 sq ft of space. Not comparing the nation's capital's affluent 'burbs with anything, let alone Arizona, but, come on, Phoenix needs something to reflect its stature. How about a nice 600' a bit north of the FAA restricted area (i.e., north of Chase Tower). Please????

Prediction: 4-8 new towers ranging from 250' to 450'. No tallest. Please prove me wrong.

Your prediction is much closer to reality. There is currently no demand for any towers in the downtown area, let alone a new tallest. Residential development seems to be topping out below 10 stories, while Class A demand is there, but with a lack of any new firms or headquarters, we'd probably see some renovated older towers before a new one is constructed. Lastly, if all the planned hotels come to market, that market will be fairly saturated. I think we'll see an office tower (in the 375' range) or two in the next several years, but that's about it.

Also, keep in mind that the highest skyscrapers are zoned for West Van Buren with heavy retail uses on the bottom. Unfortunately, choices made in the core near Central/VB have made it very difficult to build the synergies needed for such towers to even make sense from a planning perspective.


3. Tempe continues its ascension to "destination" core for business and pleasure. Tempe's decision to build the Town Lake back in '93 or '94 (I think...anyway, I was here for that) has and is paying huge divvies. Vision. It matters.

Prediction: too hard to tell. Probably another 10-15 mid- and hi-rise buildings go up. 3.5 millions square feet of office space added. ASU finally wins a national championship in football with the killer new stadium.

I'm not sure about 10-15 mid/highrises. Maybe 10 if we are counting just midrises, but like Phoenix, most residential development tops out under 10 stories, and that's where I see growth happening now that the office market has diversified the economy so greatly. I think we'll see midrise market rate and affordable residential along the Apache Corridor, and around the streetcar line near Ash and Farmer. Meanwhile, I think we'll continue to see lakefront land like Hayden Harbor and Southbank change hands and not see much progress. Would love Marina Heights to cause a domino effect, though. Lastly, it'll be interesting to see how far the stadium district progresses and what kind of heights/densities are involved.

4. More concerted effort to diversify the economy from growth-reliant to sustainable knowledge- and high-tech-based growth. Tax incentives for in-fill development to eliminate dormant space.

Prediction: Phoenix makes progress but still relies far too much on growth to drive the economy. It gets better but not fast enough. Home prices crash again then rebound again. Again, 2x to 3x the magnitude of the rest of the country through the next boom/bust cycle.

This should be the #1 objective of the many economic growth consortia in Phoenix. The focus should be on bringing new HQ and businesses from out of state with a focus on sustainability and other fast growth industries, as the Biomedical Campus struggles and ASU underimpresses.

5. Renovation of Chase Field. It's a behemoth and outdated way ahead of schedule. That giant carcass would look out of place in DT Houston or Dallas let alone Phoenix. It's so incredibly disproportionate.

Prediction: Major renovations/retro-fitting to better integrate into overall DT look/feel and successful in diminishing its true scale. Make it look like a ballpark and not a beached spaceship. Done for $50 million. D-backs win another championship. Just because.

I don't see this happening. They might reduce capacity, but I doubt much will be done to integrate it into the downtown fabric. There would need to be some demand for additional retail or hospitality in the area, and there haven't been major complaints from the powers that be on how it works with the urban scene downtown. Both USAC and Chase could be renovated to fit in better, but it's a pipe dream at best, IMO.

[somethingfast]

Originally Posted by Jjs5056

As far as somethingfast's list, here are a few thoughts:


1. Downtown Phoenix and Tucson both finally get new tallest(s). Phoenix could really, really use a signature tower. It makes me cringe a bit when I read that Tyson's Corner, VA (hotspot of activity in NoVa) is getting a new 470' tower and it will be one of 12 new hi-rises in that area which already has like 30,000,000 sq ft of space. Not comparing the nation's capital's affluent 'burbs with anything, let alone Arizona, but, come on, Phoenix needs something to reflect its stature. How about a nice 600' a bit north of the FAA restricted area (i.e., north of Chase Tower). Please????

Prediction: 4-8 new towers ranging from 250' to 450'. No tallest. Please prove me wrong.

Your prediction is much closer to reality. There is currently no demand for any towers in the downtown area, let alone a new tallest. Residential development seems to be topping out below 10 stories, while Class A demand is there, but with a lack of any new firms or headquarters, we'd probably see some renovated older towers before a new one is constructed. Lastly, if all the planned hotels come to market, that market will be fairly saturated. I think we'll see an office tower (in the 375' range) or two in the next several years, but that's about it.

Also, keep in mind that the highest skyscrapers are zoned for West Van Buren with heavy retail uses on the bottom. Unfortunately, choices made in the core near Central/VB have made it very difficult to build the synergies needed for such towers to even make sense from a planning perspective.


3. Tempe continues its ascension to "destination" core for business and pleasure. Tempe's decision to build the Town Lake back in '93 or '94 (I think...anyway, I was here for that) has and is paying huge divvies. Vision. It matters.

Prediction: too hard to tell. Probably another 10-15 mid- and hi-rise buildings go up. 3.5 millions square feet of office space added. ASU finally wins a national championship in football with the killer new stadium.

I'm not sure about 10-15 mid/highrises. Maybe 10 if we are counting just midrises, but like Phoenix, most residential development tops out under 10 stories, and that's where I see growth happening now that the office market has diversified the economy so greatly. I think we'll see midrise market rate and affordable residential along the Apache Corridor, and around the streetcar line near Ash and Farmer. Meanwhile, I think we'll continue to see lakefront land like Hayden Harbor and Southbank change hands and not see much progress. Would love Marina Heights to cause a domino effect, though. Lastly, it'll be interesting to see how far the stadium district progresses and what kind of heights/densities are involved.

4. More concerted effort to diversify the economy from growth-reliant to sustainable knowledge- and high-tech-based growth. Tax incentives for in-fill development to eliminate dormant space.

Prediction: Phoenix makes progress but still relies far too much on growth to drive the economy. It gets better but not fast enough. Home prices crash again then rebound again. Again, 2x to 3x the magnitude of the rest of the country through the next boom/bust cycle.

This should be the #1 objective of the many economic growth consortia in Phoenix. The focus should be on bringing new HQ and businesses from out of state with a focus on sustainability and other fast growth industries, as the Biomedical Campus struggles and ASU underimpresses.

5. Renovation of Chase Field. It's a behemoth and outdated way ahead of schedule. That giant carcass would look out of place in DT Houston or Dallas let alone Phoenix. It's so incredibly disproportionate.

Prediction: Major renovations/retro-fitting to better integrate into overall DT look/feel and successful in diminishing its true scale. Make it look like a ballpark and not a beached spaceship. Done for $50 million. D-backs win another championship. Just because.

I don't see this happening. They might reduce capacity, but I doubt much will be done to integrate it into the downtown fabric. There would need to be some demand for additional retail or hospitality in the area, and there haven't been major complaints from the powers that be on how it works with the urban scene downtown. Both USAC and Chase could be renovated to fit in better, but it's a pipe dream at best, IMO.

All good points. I'm of course trying to be as optimistic as possible but you're probably landing on the safer side of reality. I really hope I can come back here in 10 years and see some amazing sights (for Arizona) but it's been over 40 years since Chase Tower was built and we *still* haven't seen a replacement for tallest. Just really makes you scratch your head. Yes, a corporate relocation is probably what it would take for such a thing to happen and for that to happen Arizona would really need to reinvent itself as a visionary state when it comes to...something. Energy (solar)? Biomedical? Something. And then it needs to reassure the nation (and possible relocatees) that education and quality of life (beyond sunshine) are priorities. I really think those are the keys. Time will tell. For the record, I'd be more excited to see Tucson to get a new tallest (or equal) than Phoenix. It would make a quaint little downtown just that much more. Heck, that's my biggest wish right there: Tucson to really strive to become the Portland of the Southwest. The ingredients are there...

[MegaBass]

Originally Posted by Jjs5056

5. Renovation of Chase Field. It's a behemoth and outdated way ahead of schedule. That giant carcass would look out of place in DT Houston or Dallas let alone Phoenix. It's so incredibly disproportionate.

Prediction: Major renovations/retro-fitting to better integrate into overall DT look/feel and successful in diminishing its true scale. Make it look like a ballpark and not a beached spaceship. Done for $50 million. D-backs win another championship. Just because.

I don't see this happening. They might reduce capacity, but I doubt much will be done to integrate it into the downtown fabric. There would need to be some demand for additional retail or hospitality in the area, and there haven't been major complaints from the powers that be on how it works with the urban scene downtown. Both USAC and Chase could be renovated to fit in better, but it's a pipe dream at best, IMO.

I don't see where they could do a whole lot with reducing capacity when they already have the features that are being added in Colorado and Cleveland (kids area and group deck area).

The empty confines raise a question: Is there anything the Diamondbacks can do — that is, short of getting more people out to the park? Can they somehow reduce the capacity of the ballpark, either with a structural change or by blocking out seats?

For now, Diamondbacks CEO Derrick Hall says the answer is no.

"It’s obviously a concern of ours and we would love to have a smaller capacity but there’s no solution right now," Hall said. "I’m totally opposed to tarps. I don’t like that. I don’t like the look. There are games like Opening Day when you’re going to fill the place, but until we can come up with a long-term solution that’s within our financial reach, we’re not going to do anything." (The Arizona Republic)

[PHXFlyer11]

Unfortunately for the Dbacks, their ballpark was truly an innovation, and others have been able to build on it and improve it in the years since.

Really what would've been ideal is a smaller, more intimate venue. I would've liked to see the field sunk further below ground so the height wasn't so opposing.

You do need a roof, but the outfield could've been glass sliding doors to connect with the outside, letting light in, and allowed to be slid open when weather permitted. The giant garage across the street wouldn't have provided for much of a view however.

The red and black colors could've been incorporated rather than so much green. Yes, I realize green was within the previous color scheme.

Other than that, not sure what else could've been done differently on that site.

[somethingfast]

Originally Posted by PHXFlyer11

Unfortunately for the Dbacks, their ballpark was truly an innovation, and others have been able to build on it and improve it in the years since.

Really what would've been ideal is a smaller, more intimate venue. I would've liked to see the field sunk further below ground so the height wasn't so opposing.

You do need a roof, but the outfield could've been glass sliding doors to connect with the outside, letting light in, and allowed to be slid open when weather permitted. The giant garage across the street wouldn't have provided for much of a view however.

The red and black colors could've been incorporated rather than so much green. Yes, I realize green was within the previous color scheme.

Other than that, not sure what else could've been done differently on that site.

It's obviously a money issue. They built a ballpark that was based on a dying paradigm -- the cavernous multi-purpose (think Toronto's Skydome) building. Sure, suited for baseball but big enough to host other events. As soon as it was built the paradigm shifted, although truth be told they did have one older (only slightly at the time) that was not only a huge success but the blueprint for all future successful baseball-only ballparks -- Camden Yards. And, yes, why in the heck did they not sink the field even more? The thing just looks like giant beached whale. Against a much taller skyline, it *might* work. but it would still look hopefully outdated. Sorry to bag on it so much but I drove by it everyday for a year and it never failed to make me think of 1987 even though it was finished in '98...ugh.

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by PHXFlyer11

Other than that, not sure what else could've been done differently on that site.

I think they definitely could've done a better job connecting the stadium to downtown. For example, more restaurants where Front Row is with a more obvious street presence, and of course a better connection to the Warehouse District on the south side. It would've been neat to have the south garage built one lot to the south, and have the current site turned into a grassy field with a baseball diamond, batting cages, etc. for various pre-game and year-round events and play. To the east could've been a Diamondbacks HOF Museum, rather than just the small monument they have now dedicated to the 01 team. They might not have multiple series wins, but they've had enough players to make an attraction out of, and they could have hosted conferences, signing sessions, etc. there.

And, obviously all the garage built could've been better integrated but that goes without saying. 3 large soul-sucking monstrous structures is a bit much for one field, though they obviously share some capacity with USAC.

[rocksteady]

I really love what San Diego has done and continues to do with their ballpark district. They have done an excellent job incorporating the ballpark into the surrounding area and tons of residential, retail, and restaurants are popping up all around it. If they eventually get the Chargers stadium built downtown they are going to have one of the best sports districts in the country.

[PHXFlyer11]

Using Camden Yards and Petco Field as comparisons are grossly unfair and ignore the blatant fact that in Arizona you need a roof and air conditioning. How about examples of retractable roof stadiums that engage the streets around them?

I can't think of one. Safeco field is no better, nor is whatever Houston calls their stadium these days. Milwaukee uses glass a bit better in the OF, but I believe their stadium is surrounded by parking.

This is a huge challenge, and quite frankly one that nobody has solved yet. So to put this on the diamondbacks or the city is not fair. It's a climate and technology issue. We simply are not there yet as a society.

[somethingfast]

Originally Posted by PHXFlyer11

Using Camden Yards and Petco Field as comparisons are grossly unfair and ignore the blatant fact that in Arizona you need a roof and air conditioning. How about examples of retractable roof stadiums that engage the streets around them?

I can't think of one. Safeco field is no better, nor is whatever Houston calls their stadium these days. Milwaukee uses glass a bit better in the OF, but I believe their stadium is surrounded by parking.

This is a huge challenge, and quite frankly one that nobody has solved yet. So to put this on the diamondbacks or the city is not fair. It's a climate and technology issue. We simply are not there yet as a society.

I think this is a cop out. Using bad examples of the issue is a straw man argument. To say that no one has done a good job of this (and, you're right, they haven't) isn't to say that there's a good way to do it. all of those stadiums you mention have one thing in common: they are imposing, impenetrable, monolithic objects. Why can't you build a familiar facade that harkens back to the parks of old like most modern parks due and, yet, incorporate some kind of roof? have you seen the roof on the new vikings stadium? Essential to have one, like in Phoenix, however it feels open and invites curiosity.

The biggest problem, again, is the fact that they build this massive, impenetrable structure that closes off the outsider and dominates the skyline. Those two problems could have easily been avoided by a) building deeper into the ground and diminishing footprint by reducing overall capacity (did anyone really think average attendance would be 50,000+ for baseball???), and b) using more translucent materials on the sides of the building -- open it up to the outsider; let them see a bit of the magic they are missing inside. The retractable roof is definitely a problem of the time. We are solving the issue now and, had they taken the path of a) and b), a "simple" fix could be just replacing the roof element. Whatever...they screwed it up big-time and the ballpark was and is just a reflection of all that's been wrong with DT Phoenix for so long: all business, function over form, impenetrable, distant, cold, lifeless.

[PHXFlyer11]

Originally Posted by somethingfast

I think this is a cop out. Using bad examples of the issue is a straw man argument. To say that no one has done a good job of this (and, you're right, they haven't) isn't to say that there's a good way to do it. all of those stadiums you mention have one thing in common: they are imposing, impenetrable, monolithic objects. Why can't you build a familiar facade that harkens back to the parks of old like most modern parks due and, yet, incorporate some kind of roof? have you seen the roof on the new vikings stadium? Essential to have one, like in Phoenix, however it feels open and invites curiosity.

The biggest problem, again, is the fact that they build this massive, impenetrable structure that closes off the outsider and dominates the skyline. Those two problems could have easily been avoided by a) building deeper into the ground and diminishing footprint by reducing overall capacity (did anyone really think average attendance would be 50,000+ for baseball???), and b) using more translucent materials on the sides of the building -- open it up to the outsider; let them see a bit of the magic they are missing inside. The retractable roof is definitely a problem of the time. We are solving the issue now and, had they taken the path of a) and b), a "simple" fix could be just replacing the roof element. Whatever...they screwed it up big-time and the ballpark was and is just a reflection of all that's been wrong with DT Phoenix for so long: all business, function over form, impenetrable, distant, cold, lifeless.

Cop out? That's like saying a Boeing 707 was crap because a 777 is far superior. It's technology. Yes, the Vikings new stadium looks like it will be the best dome yet. However, it is being built nearly 17 years after Chase Field On no planet can you compare the two. The Vikings stadium was made possible by Chase field and the stadiums that followed it.

To say you wish it was a certain way, that you wish it resembled something newer is fine. But calling it a cop out because technology has advanced over the last two decades is frankly a cop out on your part.

Do I wish it was new and beautiful and smaller sure. Most stadiums are a shining example of engineering ingenuity when they are new. Chase Field was no different. However we all get old, including stadiums.

[somethingfast]

Originally Posted by PHXFlyer11

Cop out? That's like saying a Boeing 707 was crap because a 777 is far superior. It's technology. Yes, the Vikings new stadium looks like it will be the best dome yet. However, it is being built nearly 17 years after Chase Field On no planet can you compare the two. The Vikings stadium was made possible by Chase field and the stadiums that followed it.

To say you wish it was a certain way, that you wish it resembled something newer is fine. But calling it a cop out because technology has advanced over the last two decades is frankly a cop out on your part.

Do I wish it was new and beautiful and smaller sure. Most stadiums are a shining example of engineering ingenuity when they are new. Chase Field was no different. However we all get old, including stadiums.

I totally understand your position and generally agree. My lone point of contention was the very lack of vision by designers of BOB was displayed by Camden Yards designers. The roof is the roof. But every other element that WAS in their control, they screwed up. It didn't blend with the surroundings, it dominated it. Technology has nothing to do with scaling to your environment. The gross proportions of BOB wouldn't have been so distorting in a Chicago or NYC or even Seattle. But in little ol' squat DT Phoenix, it makes it appear as an urban cancer and diminishes the (little) height of the rest of the city. It showed off a diminutive skyline by comparison...exacerbated the issue really. That has nothing to do with technology.

[Buckeye Native 001]

Is there any way (I'm not an engineer) that BOB could reduce seating capacity to create a more intimate environment? I go to about three or four games a year and when you only get 20,000 (on a good night) to show up at the ballpark for a game, the place is cavernous, at best, even when the Dbacks have a rally going. The overall design is too big and imposing (which I think is what most are complaining about here, and rightfully so), but it'd be nice if they could make the inside a little bit more welcoming...

As for Milwaukee, the reason Miller Park is surrounded by parking lots is because the Brewers have for years had a fantastic tailgating scene. Its probably the only ballpark in MLB where that kind of design is justified.

[ASUSunDevil]

Originally Posted by somethingfast

b) using more translucent materials on the sides of the building -- open it up to the outsider; let them see a bit of the magic they are missing inside.

This is what I hope they address when they decide to renovate. I completely forget that I'm Downtown when I'm at a game. Take advantage of the skyline views and let a little bit of light in.

While they're at it, can we have our old colors back? The colors that we wore when we WON THE WORLD SERIES. Maybe the Suns should ditch purple and orange for Sedona red too

[somethingfast]

Originally Posted by ASUSunDevil

This is what I hope they address when they decide to renovate. I completely forget that I'm Downtown when I'm at a game. Take advantage of the skyline views and let a little bit of light in.

While they're at it, can we have our old colors back? The colors that we wore when we WON THE WORLD SERIES. Maybe the Suns should ditch purple and orange for Sedona red too

I don't mind the colors..but maybe there's something to be said for going back to what brought you some success, right?

Yep, can't help but think there's got to be some minor fixes that could make a big impact. I fear we're creeping down a path that terminates with "build us a new ballpark or we're leaving." Professional sports owners rarely take any accountability for their product when public financing is available. I wanna think the public has had enough of that kind of abuse...but sports casts a very powerful spell on the social consciousness I fear. Unfortunately for the D-backs, they've done a terrible job of taking advantage of immediate success. I never thought I'd see the day when both the Suns and D-backs are GREATLY overshadowed by the Cardinals. I mean, what a turn around. I've been a fan of all franchises since the beginning but somehow only the Cardinals (ironically) feel sincere about putting out a good product. Go figure.

[ASUSunDevil]

Originally Posted by somethingfast

8. A destination water park is finally built somewhere around Phoenix. Seriously, the Valley of the Sun should have the absolute best water park in the world. All solar-powered of course.

Prediction: No signature water theme park. At least not one to write home about. Just doesn't seem to happen.

I think this will happen within the next 10 years.

A location off the 101 near the Talking Stick Entertainment District (Top Golf, Butterfly Wonderland, OdySea Aquarium) seems like a no brainer.

[Jjs5056]

So, thiscouldbephx.com had two envision projects lately dealing with creating better blocks downtown, with the main focus being on 1st Street near Roosevelt Row. After talking to the contributors, it sounds like there is discussion for actually implementing a few features for when the SuperBowl comes to town, with the hope that some of them can become permanent and enhance the street moving forward. I think this is a great idea and a great street to be focusing on - it really is the only N/S road with the bones and built environment to really connect Hance > Roosevelt > ASU > CBD > CityScape > Warehouse District.

Unfortunately, the area adjacent to Roosevelt Row is littered with empty lots, especially between Roosevelt and Hance. Without knowing what the plans are, what do you think some low-to-medium range initiatives could be to transform those lots and other dead spaces?

MORELAND - PORTLAND
Unfortunately, there is only a single business (and only 3 structures) on 1st Street between Hance and Portland. However, with it being the Parson Health and Wellness Center, why not use that as a centerpiece for the area, with supporting efforts like:
1) A "RED Walk" along the east side of 1st Street from Portland to Moreland, culminating with a gateway to an AIDS Memorial Park within the very beginning section of Hance Park. The walk could contain informative kiosks (the history of the epidemic, guidelines for staying safe, lists of testing/treatment centers, etc.), along with public art from local artists. The project could be funded by having each piece of art/benches in the area engraved in memory of those lost to the disease; I am sure there are many who have lost loved ones who would love to see their name memorialized in such a way.
2) There is an old boarded up apartment complex on the corner of Moreland/1st Street; I don't know who has ownership, but if the City does, it would be great to see it RFP'd and converted into subsidized housing for underprivileged youth. There would have to be certain requirements (age, income, etc.), but what better way to get youth involved in health initiatives then to bring them right into the center? Funding this would not be easy, unless there are federal programs available or a rich sponsor who feels this is a cause worth donating to.
3) It would be awesome to see the Firehouse finally restored into a restaurant. To fit into the community, a portion could be used for classroom space and classes could be taught on cooking, music, art, etc. The staff could potentially be the youth living across the street if that project ever came to fruition. Again, this would be tough and likely need private development funds which just aren't there.

PORTLAND - ROOSEVELT
1) The SW intersection of 1st/Portland has a parking lot that I'd love to see divided in half and replaced with turf and boxed trees for yoga, pilates, etc. especially with Sutra just across the street. This wouldn't take much money at all, and would just need to be negotiated with the owner; I am sure a parking-share agreement could be worked out with the neighboring lots/garage.
2) There is a large landscaped setback between the parking garage and the sidewalk along the west side of 1st street; it would be great to utilize the space somehow. Either tents for an arts market on First Fridays and on Sunday afternoons (to coincide with any events at the new park), or maybe even plexi-glass boxes with art inside. The boxes can't be too expensive and local artists should be happy to have their work prominently displayed.

[HX_Guy]

So are all the arenas now going to have casino names? I don't know why but this irks me.

US Airways Center is now Talking Stick Resort Arena. Jobing.com is now Gila River Arena. Bleh.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by HX_Guy

So are all the arenas now going to have casino names? I don't know why but this irks me.

US Airways Center is now Talking Stick Resort Arena. Jobing.com is now Gila River Arena. Bleh.

Since certain names of sports teams and mascots are based on stereotypes of Native Americans, maybe it's only fair that Indian gaming facilities have the opportunity and the money to put their names on sports venues.

[HooverDam]

Originally Posted by HX_Guy

So are all the arenas now going to have casino names? I don't know why but this irks me.

US Airways Center is now Talking Stick Resort Arena. Jobing.com is now Gila River Arena. Bleh.

Gila River Arena is a GREAT name. No one outside of the Valley knows its a casino, they think its named for a river. It doesn't sound corporate, its terrific. Just like how "America West Arena" sounded good, the arena was in America and in the west, perfect! Likewise, "Chase Field" sounds good because it's not "Chase Bank Field."

"Talking Stick RESORT Arena" is clunky and awful. I wish/hope the Suns tried to get it to be just "Talking Stick Arena" that wouldn't have been as bad.

[HX_Guy]

I guess I don't mind the corporate names, sounds more "big city" to me, like Delta or United, Chase is good. Gila River Arena sounds like some small town place. And the RESORT in the Talking Stick name is the worst part...it's like, is it a resort, an arena, huh?