New Interchanges and Bypasses in MB / SK

[CoryB]

Based on the CCW interchange timeframe a new one at Kennaston/Perimeter would likely take around four years to construct. I wonder though if part of the delay in starting it might be due to limited skilled resources available for this type of work. It seems that the Morris bridge is that top priority coming out of the throne speech.

[Spocket]

I love how the province of Manitoba is pretty much the only jurisdiction in the developed world (and most of the developing world) without a freeway of any kind. What makes me really love it though is that said same province wants to promote itself as a transportation hub.

Yes. That'll work. If we tell them that we're thinking about upgrading to 1950's standards , so long as they don't look at a map , we're set.

[Reignman]

Originally Posted by Spocket

I love how the province of Manitoba is pretty much the only jurisdiction in the developed world (and most of the developing world) without a freeway of any kind. What makes me really love it though is that said same province wants to promote itself as a transportation hub.

Yes. That'll work. If we tell them that we're thinking about upgrading to 1950's standards , so long as they don't look at a map , we're set.

Spocket....Manitoba is a different animal, we don't need expressways!

See in Manitoba, we prefer to save on overpass and interchange construction and pass these costs onto commuters and transport vehicles in the form of lost time, and gas wasted sitting at light after light after light....that way we can keep their income, sales and property taxes low. Oh crap...wait...

[steveosnyder]

Originally Posted by Reignman

Spocket....Manitoba is a different animal, we don't need expressways!

See in Manitoba, we prefer to save on overpass and interchange construction and pass these costs onto commuters and transport vehicles in the form of lost time, and gas wasted sitting at light after light after light....that way we can keep their income, sales and property taxes low. Oh crap...wait...

I have a bit of a problem with this. Let's say that these transport vehicles lose time and gas because of the lack of interchanges, how much money and time must they lose in order for the provincial government to justify building an interchange?

If you want to go cost/benefit, manitoba business tax = 12%, federal business tax = 15%... If 1 interchange cost $20,000,000 that means that it would have to work out to $74M in lost costs of business for this to work out.

But the federal government would only match provincial dollars, so we should drop their business tax to 12%... which works out to $83M in lost business.

This also doesn't take into account that the "wasted gas" is actually a good thing for the province/feds because they make money the more gas you consume. It also doesn't take into account the ongoing maintenance of an interchange vs. a lighted intersection vs. an uncontrolled intersection.

This isn't saying that interchanges shouldn't be built, but it's a lot more complex than "wasted time and gas".

[harls]

I'm really surprised the government hasn't fixed that embarrassment at the perimeter and 59 (north end). I think I was 12 (and I'm old) when I looked at a Manitoba provincial road map and said to myself, "WTF".

Biff - get on this. I hold you personally responsible.

[bomberjet]

^^ On the flip side. Lights on the Perimeter are completely unsafe. Peoples time (my time) is worth more than any kind of money. I would rather pay more to have better service.

On the business end. In theory, if truckers are able to move faster through the Province/City. They will be able to do another trip sooner. Which provides greater efficiency on the clients (goods providers) end. Which will speed up the pace of business, which will generate more tax dollars for the Province to invest back into infrastructure, education, etc. In theory. One of those cyclical type things. IMO.

[steveosnyder]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

^^ On the flip side. Lights on the Perimeter are completely unsafe. Peoples time (my time) is worth more than any kind of money. I would rather pay more to have better service.

On the business end. In theory, if truckers are able to move faster through the Province/City. They will be able to do another trip sooner. Which provides greater efficiency on the clients (goods providers) end. Which will speed up the pace of business, which will generate more tax dollars for the Province to invest back into infrastructure, education, etc. In theory. One of those cyclical type things. IMO.

I agree, many interchanges would increase the amount of money capable of being made by business, and some might pay off, I was just showing that it is more complex than what most people make it out to be, and finding a correct answer isn't easy.

As for the bolded statement, how do you attribute economic value to an individuals time? Let's say, for example, the Plessis underpass... The time loss waiting for a train is one of the justifications, but how does 1 second equal any amount of money (specifically for the government).

I am not very well spoken as others, so I'll just quote someone else:

Originally Posted by Chuck Marohn, Strong Towns

By far the biggest "benefit" said to be realized by the Staples overpass project is time savings by those that today must wait to cross the railroad tracks and highway. From the Staples application: Additionally, time is money! Based on anticipated traffic volume on the new corridor, travelers will save over 3.4 million hours of travel time which equates to a Present Value of Time benefit, over the 20 year study period, of over $47 million.

So the people of Staples will not have to wait at the train crossing and this time saved equates to $47 million in savings.

Before we look at the numbers, pause for a second and understand that 85% of the benefits of the project - in dollar terms - is people saving time in traffic. There is no direct or indirect financial return to the government for this savings. Sure, the application argues that the "delays have a direct impact on the productivity of our local businesses and schools", but nobody is arguing that this increased productivity will result in $47 million in increased sales, income and property tax receipts. Or any real increase. The time savings is a purely social benefit for the people of Staples who will now enjoy reduced travel times from the construction of the overpass.

While this is about a project in Staples, MN, the same can be said about any interchange/overpass that says "time savings" is worth some sort of economic value.

EDIT: While I agree an individuals time is worth a lot to them, you can't say it's an economic benefit for the government, it is a strictly social benefit and will not pay anything back to the government.

[North_Regina_Boy]

The gov't is NOT a money making body. They are merely an enabler to facilitate commerce by way of increasing efficiency in transportation. By this $47 million in increased sales the tax base draw from the corporate tax is increased by quite a substantial amount. Thus allowing better influx of dollars to spend on other projects / programs to assist others. The gov't is a filter for funds not a collector of funds. THAT fact is what a lot of people seem to be missing here. Gov't capital is means to a overall better private corporate system.

[steveosnyder]

Originally Posted by North_Regina_Boy

The gov't is NOT a money making body. They are merely an enabler to facilitate commerce by way of increasing efficiency in transportation. By this $47 million in increased sales the tax base draw from the corporate tax is increased by quite a substantial amount. Thus allowing better influx of dollars to spend on other projects / programs to assist others. The gov't is a filter for funds not a collector of funds. THAT fact is what a lot of people seem to be missing here. Gov't capital is means to a overall better private corporate system.

Government is not a money making body, but that doesn't mean it should act irrationally. If a capital expenditure is going to cost more for everyone than the amount of revenue it will make than it is not a good expenditure, whether you are private business, government, non-profit venture, or a person.

Government should act in such a manner that it is sustainable, but sustainability has 3 pillars: social, environmental and economic. If the development is not economic then it isn't sustainable. When the government doesn't think about the economic impacts of what they build they either run a deficit or raise taxes, both outcomes I (or most people) don't want to happen, unlike what bomberjet said when he didn't mind paying more.

EDIT: I should also add a link to the quoted text. It might just be that you are taking what was quoted out of context; the $47M isn't actual money it is the estimated economic impact of the time savings, but they never say how saving 2 minutes per person stopped at a track will actually make $47M in real dollars of benefits.

Link to the post

[Reignman]

November 26, 2013
MANITOBA GOVERNMENT SUPPORTS GROWTH IN SOUTHWEST WINNIPEG, CONNECTS PRIMARY TRADE ROUTES WITH PERIMETER HIGHWAY UPGRADES


The Manitoba government will continue to improve the province’s trade connection to North America’s core highway system at the same time as supporting growth in southwest Winnipeg with a $200-million, five-year plan to start rebuilding the southwest quadrant of Winnipeg’s Perimeter Highway, Premier Greg Selinger and Infrastructure and Transportation Minister Steve Ashton announced today.

“The Perimeter has served Winnipeggers well the last 50 years and as our population and economy grows, we will take this highway to the next level to make the most of Manitoba’s central location, which gives us a real edge in North American trade,” said Premier Selinger. “The work on the southwest Perimeter Highway is part of our overall plan to improve our connection to the rest of the continent that includes flood proofing PTH 75 to interstate standards, opening CentrePort Canada Way and constructing a bypass at Headingley.”

The premier said upgrades on the southwest Perimeter Highway that link the primary truck routes of the Trans-Canada Highway and PTH 75 with CentrePort will be prioritized over the next five years including:

reconstruction of the Perimeter Highway from the Trans-Canada Highway to Brady Road;
a new interstate standard diamond interchange at PTH 3 (McGillivray Boulevard); and
engineering work to replace the remaining traffic signals with similar interstate standard diamond interchanges including a Kenaston Boulevard/Waverley Street interchange.
“These improvements will accommodate the increasing economic activity and truck traffic that come with the opening of CentrePort Canada Way,” said Minister Ashton. “Our plan will create a high-speed, free-flowing roadway with safer, smoother traffic especially around southwest Winnipeg where housing and businesses are rapidly expanding.”

Open houses to be held next year will provide more details and an opportunity for public input on the projects.

The minister noted improvements to the southwest Perimeter are part of a five-year plan that will see all of the new revenue from the one-cent-on-the-dollar increase in the PST devoted to building Manitoba’s core infrastructure including roads and bridges, flood protection and municipal infrastructure like sewer and water systems.

[Biff]

Ho-ly SHIT! Someone please slap me into reality. This has to be a miss-print. I just received the same government news release and couldn't believe what I was reading. They are actually using the words "Interstate Standards" and "Diamond Interchange" in the same release as "Funding". They must have finally employed someone who is familiar with highway construction in the 1950's.

Originally Posted by Reignman

November 26, 2013

The premier said upgrades on the southwest Perimeter Highway that link the primary truck routes of the Trans-Canada Highway and PTH 75 with CentrePort will be prioritized over the next five years including:

- reconstruction of the Perimeter Highway from the Trans-Canada Highway to Brady Road;
- a new interstate standard diamond interchange at PTH 3 (McGillivray Boulevard)
- engineering work to replace the remaining traffic signals with similar interstate standard diamond interchanges including a Kenaston Boulevard/Waverley Street interchange.

“These improvements will accommodate the increasing economic activity and truck traffic that come with the opening of CentrePort Canada Way,” said Minister Ashton. “Our plan will create a high-speed, free-flowing roadway with safer, smoother traffic especially around southwest Winnipeg where housing and businesses are rapidly expanding.”

[Bdog]

Originally Posted by Biff

Ho-ly SHIT! Someone please slap me into reality. This has to be a miss-print. I just received the same government news release and couldn't believe what I was reading. They are actually using the words "Interstate Standards" and "Diamond Interchange" in the same release as "Funding". They must have finally employed someone who is familiar with highway construction in the 1950's.

Might as well just call the 75 "I29 North" when all these improvements are finished! "Are we in Fargo?" the kids will be asking...

[bomberjet]

Whaaaat?! This is just crazy talk!! So glad to hear that.

[esquire]

Manitoba's first diamond interchange!

We will need a fresh batch of "60 Second Drivers" to educate us on how to navigate these newfangled contraptions!

But seriously though, a commitment to "rebuild" the SW Perimeter (whatever that means) and a new interchange at the sketchiest intersection in southern Manitoba is certainly good news. Who knows when the other interchanges being "engineered" will ever be built (101/59 had engineering work done in the 1990s), but this is a good start.

The only rain on the parade here is that a diamond interchange at the corner of two major highways 100/3 would have been Interstate standards maybe in 1968, but certainly not now. However, preventing more deadly collisions with an overpass is a win in and of itself, and I'm not about to complain about an inferior interchange design on this auspicious day!

[bomberjet]

Does this mean the plans for the PR 330 traffic signal work are on hold until the engineering is completed? So it's safe to say there will be diamonds at McGillivray, PR 330, Kenaston/Waverley. Diamond at Kenaston doesn't seem like enough. But hey, maybe that'll change over the next couple years. I wonder about the rail crossings. Two of them, not very bust lines. But interstates don't have rail crossings. Either way, good news!

[esquire]

^ Judging by the text of the press release, sounds like the SW Perimeter (from 75 to 1) will be all interchanges, no traffic lights. So really, that means adding diamonds at the corner of 100 and Kenaston, 330 and 3. No timeline given for the interchanges at Kenaston and 330, though.

I agree that a diamond seems inadequate for the junction with Kenaston (as with PTH 3). That will be a major route once the St. Norbert bypass is built. Diamonds are generally meant to provide minor roads with an access point to major highways, not to connect two major highways.

[bomberjet]

https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=h...number=1&w=572

Map of interchanges, existing and proposed, on the Perimeter.

[bomberjet]

Interesting they're showing two separate interchanges. One at Kenaston, and one at Waverley. In addition, off the top of my head, there are 5 rail overpasses that need to be built as well.

Edit: Make that 6 rail overpasses.

[rypinion]

It may just be for simplicity in the diagram, but I don't like how it suggests that it will be 100/3 that has the diamond and not 100/2. Highway 3/2 traffic should bypass Oak Bluff by using the Highway 2 alignment across the Perimeter, in my opinion.

[Bdog]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

Interesting they're showing two separate interchanges. One at Kenaston, and one at Waverley. In addition, off the top of my head, there are 5 rail overpasses that need to be built as well.

Edit: Make that 6 rail overpasses.

I think there are actually 8 or 9 that cross the Perimeter at-grade, but most of them rarely have any train traffic. The only one that I can think of with regular traffic that has an at-grade Perimeter Crossing is the CN line at Dugald.