Random Conversations

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kevinbottawa

I'm Black and I'm not offended by names like Gladstone, but I'm probably the minority on this issue. If you were to rename everything that had ties to slavery or any other dark part of our history, you'd have to rename almost everything and dedicate unnecessary resources to those renamings. Most people have no idea who certain streets were originally named after. Some street names have become iconic within their cities, like Dundas Street in Toronto which some are calling to be renamed. Can you imagine Toronto without a Dundas Street? We all just need to admit that there were bright and dark aspects to our history and learn from it. I'm more upset with current instances of racism than historical ones. But again, I'm probably one of the few Black people that feel this way.

That is, if they're actually aware. Most people aren't even aware of the origin or meaning of their own street's name, let alone random streets in their city.

But I am sure there are people researching things as we speak, and that we'll see more "did you know?" moments about them as we go along.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Urbanarchit

You would be correct, I am an unlicensed architectural technologist working at a firm. Your comment about sense of place is quite accurate, but makes me wonder about whether names after historical figures makes different minority groups feel uncomfortable or not. Like, there used to be social housing on Gladstone at Rochester and Booth where a good number of people were PoC. Did they feel uncomfortable by the name or did they just associate the name with the street and not the person it's named after. If it's anything like how I feel, Gladstone is a street and not a person. What I associate Gladstone with is a street that I like and feel has potential to be a great urban street.

As a person of Italian heritage whose family lived on Preston when they immigrated here, I really dislike naming anything Corso Italia. If you want to rename something Italian, let's consider important Italians from Ottawa or something. It sounds tacky to my ears (Italy Course).

Of topic, but most cities in Italy have a Corso d'Italia. In Rome it is just north of the Aurelian wall leading to Villa Borghese.

Slightly on topic, do we now expect the Italians to rename the Aurelian Wall because Marcus Aurelius supported slavery?

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I don't know how I'd feel if Detroit or St. Louis, or even somewhere in Nova Scotia with no Acadians, all of a sudden decided to change a whole bunch of their street names and make them French.

It'd just be bizarre.

Detroit and St Louis both retain their OG New France names (as do many geographic features and streets).

It's interesting, 200 some years after overthrowing the monarchy most things named after monarchs still exist in the US. Even in the Vicinity of Washington there is a Prince George County, a Prince William County, a King William County, the neighbourhood of Georgetown, etc.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by kevinbottawa

I'm Black and I'm not offended by names like Gladstone, but I'm probably the minority on this issue. If you were to rename everything that had ties to slavery or any other dark part of our history, you'd have to rename almost everything and dedicate unnecessary resources to those renamings. Most people have no idea who certain streets were originally named after. Some street names have become iconic within their cities, like Dundas Street in Toronto which some are calling to be renamed. Can you imagine Toronto without a Dundas Street? We all just need to admit that there were bright and dark aspects to our history and learn from it. I'm more upset with current instances of racism than historical ones. But again, I'm probably one of the few Black people that feel this way.

Well said. I think the context is important. We should absolutely change confederate names who were by definition about racism and treasonous at the time.

Mixed legacies are a lot more complicated. For example Queens University is changing the name of McDonald Hall. I think when we try and eliminate our history we are saying we are essentially saying we would be better off if Canada hadn't been created. This is actually a fairly widespread view but if that is the case we should walk the walk and give back the land not just speak in platitudes.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Detroit and St Louis both retain their OG New France names (as do many geographic features and streets).

.

Yes I know they retained some old French street names but I am talking about renaming a bunch of existing ones too. In 2020 that would be bizarre.

[passwordisnt123]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Of topic, but most cities in Italy have a Corso d'Italia. In Rome it is just north of the Aurelian wall leading to Villa Borghese.

Slightly on topic, do we now expect the Italians to rename the Aurelian Wall because Marcus Aurelius supported slavery?

The Aurelian Walls aren't named after 2nd Century Emperor Marcus Aurelius. They're named after the 3rd Century Roman Emperor Aurelian.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurelian
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Aurelius

[passwordisnt123]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Well said. I think the context is important. We should absolutely change confederate names who were by definition about racism and treasonous at the time.

Mixed legacies are a lot more complicated. For example Queens University is changing the name of McDonald Hall. I think when we try and eliminate our history we are saying we are essentially saying we would be better off if Canada hadn't been created. This is actually a fairly widespread view but if that is the case we should walk the walk and give back the land not just speak in platitudes.

I'm sorry what? Queen's University changing the name of a building means "essentially saying we would be better off if Canada hadn't been created"? That's quite the mental leap, don't you think?

I truly don't understand why people allow themselves to get so distracted by such banalities when there are actually important things in life more worth focussing on.

[passwordisnt123]

Originally Posted by passwordisnt123

The Aurelian Walls aren't named after 2nd Century Emperor Marcus Aurelius. They're named after the 3rd Century Roman Emperor Aurelian.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurelian
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Aurelius

Also, just to build on this, the Aurelian walls are named after the Emperor who built them. Gladstone the street is some weird attempt of a town to honour a completely unrelated British aristocrat who never lived on that street, had nothing to do with that street, and who generally looked upon the "colonials" as parochial and small. I don't know what the term for that second dynamic is ("white knighting" comes to mind but that's not quite it) but it personally would leave a bad taste in my mouth even if the subject wasn't a scoundrel.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by passwordisnt123

I truly don't understand why people allow themselves to get so distracted by such banalities when there are actually important things in life more worth focussing on.

But can't that also be said about the push to purge Macdonald's name from that building (and any number of other locations) that started all of this?

The proposed new name for the building is that of an Indigenous woman who I believe was a pioneer in law studies for that demographic. Certainly someone deserving of recognition in some way.

I assume that Queen's actually has an bona fide plan to increase the accessibility of law studies for Indigenous people, otherwise you'll end up with the same demographics as today (ie almost all students and faculty non-indigenous, with only a handful of exceptions) studying in a building that has a nice Indigenous name that at best only serves to assuage some form of collective guilt.

I kinda feel the same way about renaming streets and public spaces in a city like Ottawa. While I agree that when you look at a map of the city, there are very few Indigenous toponyms in the city, so in that respect they're clearly under-represented.

That said, if the city map becomes much more visibly Indigenous in terms of the names you see (and there is a good chance it will), as I alluded to before it's a bit weird to have all these Indigenous names (and perhaps symbolism in some cases) all around you with so very few actual Indigenous people present in the city. (Indigenous people are 2.9% of the Ottawa-Gatineau CMA.)

In a 2007 Quebec documentary, Indigenous people were referred to as "le peuple invisible". In cases of renaming spaces it's as if they're both visible and invisible at the same time. I realize one can't do much about demographics, but the token naming a whole bunch of stuff for them almost makes them seem like "ghosts".

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by passwordisnt123

Also, just to build on this, the Aurelian walls are named after the Emperor who built them. Gladstone the street is some weird attempt of a town to honour a completely unrelated British aristocrat who never lived on that street, had nothing to do with that street, and who generally looked upon the "colonials" as parochial and small. I don't know what the term for that second dynamic is ("white knighting" comes to mind but that's not quite it) but it personally would leave a bad taste in my mouth even if the subject wasn't a scoundrel.

Definitely agree, but that's true of so many names in so many new world cities.

If you think of the main downtown Ottawa streets most are named for British colonial era figures or officials, or notables of early Ottawa.

Some of them like monarchs never set foot in Canada but may have commissioned or authorized various milestones in our history.

But others like Gladstone had nothing to do with us. Very major streets like Wellington and Sussex for example are also named for people who had nothing to do with Ottawa or Canada.

The official information about Wellington says he played a role of some kind in the building of the Rideau Canal but nothing in his online bios or official info on the canal mentions that AFAIK. It almost sounds like they were trying to justify the name with somewhat tenuous links. Wellington was apparently tapped by London to get involved in the War of 1812 and defend Canada against the Americans, but he turned down the offer and opted to remain Europe.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by passwordisnt123

The Aurelian Walls aren't named after 2nd Century Emperor Marcus Aurelius. They're named after the 3rd Century Roman Emperor Aurelian.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurelian
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Aurelius

Thanks for the correction.

I think Aurelian also supported slavery.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Definitely agree, but that's true of so many names in so many new world cities.

If you think of the main downtown Ottawa streets most are named for British colonial era figures or officials, or notables of early Ottawa.

Some of them like monarchs never set foot in Canada but may have commissioned or authorized various milestones in our history.

But others like Gladstone had nothing to do with us. Very major streets like Wellington and Sussex for example are also named for people who had nothing to do with Ottawa or Canada.

The official information about Wellington says he played a role of some kind in the building of the Rideau Canal but nothing in his online bios or official info on the canal mentions that AFAIK. It almost sounds like they were trying to justify the name with somewhat tenuous links. Wellington was apparently tapped by London to get involved in the War of 1812 and defend Canada against the Americans, but he turned down the offer and opted to remain Europe.

Wellington was a pretty significant figure in world history and he was Prime Minister while the town was under construction.

We don’t have a purpose build capital. Our capital is built on a town largely founded by the Royal Engineers in the early 19th century. Street names reflect that.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Wellington was a pretty significant figure in world history and he was Prime Minister while the town was under construction.

We don’t have a purpose build capital. Our capital is built on a town largely founded by the Royal Engineers in the early 19th century. Street names reflect that.

I probably wouldn't be supportive of changing the name of Wellington St., but I still don't think it's that different from Gladstone or any of the other names of people who had little to do with Ottawa or Canada's history.

Like the others, it was chosen out of imperial fervour, and as you said yourself he was a big deal in world history. And British to boot. That's why his name was chosen.

He was British Prime Minister for two years the first time, and for a month the second time. He wasn't PM when the decision was made to build the Rideau Canal nor for when Ottawa chosen as the capital.

The city was built and evolved over several decades, and his tenure at least in terms of our history had an extremely limited impact.

But as I said, I think it would be silly to remove his name from Wellington St. You'd have to find a really compelling replacement name for me to get on board. Ironically, the last time changing the name of Wellington St. was considered, the proposed replacement name was... Macdonald.

[kwoldtimer]

Pierre Elliot Trudeau Boulevard, of course. ...

[J.OT13]

Wellington and Rideau were named by Colonel John By, possibly other streets as well. Both should remain. The suggestion of renaming Wellington for John A. was sort of ridiculous. The Harper Government would have named everything after John A. (and they did rename both the old BMO Building and the Ottawa River Parkway for him) even if his name was already plastered all across town.

[VANRIDERFAN]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Wellington and Rideau were named by Colonel John By, possibly other streets as well. Both should remain. The suggestion of renaming Wellington for John A. was sort of ridiculous. The Harper Government would have named everything after John A. (and they did rename both the old BMO Building and the Ottawa River Parkway for him) even if his name was already plastered all across town.

On the west coast when Cook, Vancouver and Malaspina charted the entire region many of the bays, sounds and prominent points of land were named after many of the officers who sailed with these explorers as well as ships that were stationed in the region. Recently some original names such as "Salish Sea" have replaced or enhanced the European names (its still the Strait of Georgia, but the entire region from Race Rocks to the entrance to Pugent Sound and north to Johnstone Strait is the Salish Sea).

[VANRIDERFAN]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Pierre Elliot Trudeau Boulevard, of course. ...

Do you recall when Chretien tried to rename Mt Logan to Mt Trudeau?

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ticle25473135/

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I probably wouldn't be supportive of changing the name of Wellington St., but I still don't think it's that different from Gladstone or any of the other names of people who had little to do with Ottawa or Canada's history.

Like the others, it was chosen out of imperial fervour, and as you said yourself he was a big deal in world history. And British to boot. That's why his name was chosen.

He was British Prime Minister for two years the first time, and for a month the second time. He wasn't PM when the decision was made to build the Rideau Canal nor for when Ottawa chosen as the capital.

The city was built and evolved over several decades, and his tenure at least in terms of our history had an extremely limited impact.

But as I said, I think it would be silly to remove his name from Wellington St. You'd have to find a really compelling replacement name for me to get on board. Ironically, the last time changing the name of Wellington St. was considered, the proposed replacement name was... Macdonald.

Would you say the same thing about all the streets named after Saints in Quebec (none of whom have any connection to Canada)? Street names are a product of their time (Loyalist Imperial fervour in Ontario, Catholic oligarchy in Quebec, numbered streets probably chosen by railway engineers on the prairies, etc).

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

Do you recall when Chretien tried to rename Mt Logan to Mt Trudeau?

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...ticle25473135/

Attempts at a North Korea style personality cult.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by passwordisnt123

I'm sorry what? Queen's University changing the name of a building means "essentially saying we would be better off if Canada hadn't been created"? That's quite the mental leap, don't you think?

I truly don't understand why people allow themselves to get so distracted by such banalities when there are actually important things in life more worth focussing on.

Well on the one hand yes this one small act does not mean we are abandoning the foundation of our country. It is one small faculty which has long been known as more social justice than academic in nature. That said, if you say he is not worthy of being honored for leading confederation because of the associated miscarriages of justice what else are you saying? This is not saying he owned slaves in his private life it is saying his professional work is shameful.

Yes it is virtue signaling but I believe what we say should match our deeds. If we are going to say this meeting is taking place on unceded land we should give it back. Like a lot of our rhetoric on Oil Sands and climate change it's easy to tell someone else to pay.