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  #41  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2016, 3:43 AM
Hamilton Hamilton is offline
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More to the original point of this thread, I always find talk of whether "Brooklyn" is this or that to be so silly. It's a borough of 2.7 million people, taking up 70 square miles. When people make blanket statements about "Brooklyn," they're usually referring to a small chunk of the borough all the way at its northwestern end. But there are literally dozens of neighborhoods in Brooklyn...some of them, it's safe to say, will never be "cool" (Mill Basin, anyone?). The borough's got everything from brownstone neighborhoods, to tracts of single-family homes with manicured lawns, to slums made up of crumbling public housing projects, to industrial wastelands, to a skyscraper district, to neighborhoods made up mostly of prewar apartment towers. You've got immigrant enclaves, you've got hipster havens, you've got hasidic shtetls, you've got places for firemen and police officers to hang their hats after a day's work, you've got blue bloods and blue collars. The range of architectural typologies, demographic profiles, and 'coolness' factors in the borough is unbelievable, and reducing it all to Williamsburg stereotype is, frankly, insulting.
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  #42  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2016, 6:17 AM
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^^ Ding ding ding! Exactly!!
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  #43  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2016, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Hamilton View Post
More to the original point of this thread, I always find talk of whether "Brooklyn" is this or that to be so silly. It's a borough of 2.7 million people, taking up 70 square miles. When people make blanket statements about "Brooklyn," they're usually referring to a small chunk of the borough all the way at its northwestern end.
This is true, but inherent in any geographical stereotype.

Is Beverly Hills really just giant, gaudy estates? Only north of Sunset Blvd. Is the Bronx wall-to-wall tenements packed with Dominicans and Puerto Ricans? Only west of the Bronx River and south of Bedford Park.

There are many "Brooklyns" of course; the one dominating the recent discourse is heavily weighted towards Williamsburg, and NW Brooklyn in general, but really all of gentrified, brownstone Brooklyn and environs shares these attributes, more or less, and that's a pretty huge chunk of Brooklyn.

And even the ungentrified parts have kind of a "Brooklyn effect", regardless of typology. Bay Ridge is completely different than Williamsburg, of course, and nowhere near Manhattan, but small new construction 2 bedrooms go for $1 million, there's some degree of "maker" culture (lots of very specific food startups) and much of the newer retail has the cliche look (the Edison bulbs/distressed wood) that screams Brooklyn.
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  #44  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2016, 12:28 PM
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^^^ Well, Beverley Hills is tiny, and the majority of the population of the Bronx (~55%) really *is* Puerto Rican and Dominican; likewise the old tenement districts of the Bronx (plus public housing projects like those in Soundview) really do contain the majority of the Bronx's population. Just out of curiosity, I used socialexplorer.com to add up the population of the broadest swath of Brooklyn that I could imagine the 'Brooklyn' stereotype applying to. Even including places like Bay Ridge and far eastern Crown Heights, you're looking at a region containing only about a third of the borough's population. And for every 'Brooklyn'-style business or resident you see in Bay Ridge, you have 5 businesses or residents that wouldn't be out of place in St George or Clifton NJ or East Elmhurst. At this point, Edison bulbs, distressed wood, etc are cliches that you'll see in generic new businesses all over the country. As a longtime Brooklynite, I actually always associated all that crap more with Portland than with Brooklyn.

Real estate prices are another story---thanks to NIMBYs housing costs are way above historical levels almost anywhere near a rapid transit line within reasonable distance of Midtown or the Financial District, 'Brooklyn effect' or not. At the same time, there are neighborhoods like East Flatbush on the transit-poor fringes of the borough where property prices still haven't recovered to their pre-2007 peaks, though, to be fair, they do represent a small fraction of Brooklyn.

Last edited by Hamilton; Oct 13, 2016 at 2:07 PM.
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  #45  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2016, 12:35 PM
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^^^ Just out of curiosity, I used socialexplorer.com to add up the population of the broadest swath of Brooklyn that I could imagine the 'Brooklyn' stereotype applying to. Even including places like Bay Ridge and far eastern Crown Heights, you're looking at a region containing only about a third of the borough's population.
Assuming that to be true, why is that problematic? If Brooklyn contains a geography with about 800-900k people living in neighborhoods that (more or less) fit the stereotype, then why is the stereotype so off?

The "other Brooklyns" are very different and don't really have a unified element. There's Caribbean Brooklyn, Hasidic and Orthodox Brooklyn, Black Brooklyn, Russian Brooklyn, Old School White Ethnic Brooklyn. These Brooklyns are fairly well known too. I think most people know that Brooklyn has Italians, Orthodox Jews, black people, immigrants, etc.
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  #46  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2016, 1:14 PM
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Brooklyn (TM) obviously refers to the areas that fit the yuppie/hipster stereotype, from Cobble Hill to Williamsburg to Bushwick.
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  #47  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2016, 1:31 PM
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Probably the least known Brooklyn is Chinese Brooklyn. Huge Chinese communities now in Sunset Park, Bensonhurst, Dyker Heights, Bath Beach, Gravesend, Sheepshead Bay. 8th Avenue in Brooklyn (and 18th Ave. to lesser extent) are extremely important Chinese arteries (obviously the "lucky 8" played a big role in Chinese businesses gravitating to these streets). N train is majority Chinese these days.
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  #48  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2016, 9:13 PM
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right on time from the daily news today:



Neil deMause: Brooklyn is dead; long live Brooklyn

BY NEIL DEMAUSE
NEW YORK DAILY NEWS Saturday, October 15, 2016, 5:00 AM




http://www.aecom.com/swbrooklyn/wp-c...klyn-Study.pdf
Tomorrow’s Red Hook and Sunset Park? (AECOM)

When the construction firm AECOM proposed a sea of new apartment towers for Red Hook last month — and an extension of the 1 train under the East River to better connect the subway-inaccessible neighborhood to transit — it raised eyebrows, even in today’s go-go Brooklyn. Building 45,000 new units would be the equivalent of adding the population of Albany to a neighborhood that not long ago was best known for public housing and rotting piers.

It’s all part of Brooklyn’s incredible metamorphosis from cheap-but-run-down outer borough to pricey destination, a process that’s brought consequences both good — fresh lobster rolls! — and troubling — displacement of longtime residents, and soaring rents for those who remain.

But why Brooklyn, and why now? There’s no one answer. Rather, several interlocking factors have helped bring about the New Brooklyn:


Inequality. To have $4,000-a-month rents, you need renters who can afford to pay them. We’re in the midst of a massive concentration of wealth: Thanks in part to falling tax rates on the rich, the top one-tenth of 1% of Americans now control nearly a quarter of all wealth, more than twice their share in the 1970s. This not only creates an overflow of well-off New Yorkers looking for housing — Brooklyn households earning more than $200,000 a year nearly doubled between 2005 to 2012 — but a flood of families looking to buy investment properties for their children.

Changing values. After decades of the young and affluent fleeing cities for the suburbs, we’re now in what’s been dubbed the Great Inversion, with cities from Miami to Detroit swelling with young people. Part of it involves changing attitudes around lifestyle: Bikes are cool now, cars not. But part stems from a pioneer mentality that has newcomers envisioning themselves less as rejoining their parents’ urban would-be neighbors than reclaiming lost territory. (Seen at its most blatant with the Bushwick condo called Colony 1209, which advertised for “like-minded settlers” to “Brooklyn’s new frontier.”)

Changing attitudes about race. Brooklyn lost much of its white population in the 1960s and 1970s, in part thanks to fear of the new neighbors, though much of this was filtered through fear of crime and of falling property values. Younger generations of moneyed whites, to their credit, aren’t as fearful of living near people who don’t look like themselves; unfortunately, in many neighborhoods those seeking “diversity” have found themselves part of an incoming wave that only ends up erasing what they came for.

Rezoning. Not every changing neighborhood has been the subject of a city-sponsored rezoning, but the most rapid transformation has taken place in areas like Williamsburg and downtown Brooklyn, where zoning maps were redrawn to allow high-end high rises to replace existing buildings, and existing New Yorkers. It’s a process driven all too often not by residents but by developers seeking new conquests: The Downtown Brooklyn Partnership that helped redraw Brooklyn’s skyline has been a revolving door of former city officials and real estate investors.

Branding. This is perhaps the hardest factor to define, incorporating everything from the workings of the New York Times real estate section (whose features on hot new neighborhoods have set many a realtor’s heart aflutter) to TV shows like “Friends” and “Sex and the City,” which helped sell the idea of New York as no longer a place to flee (think “Welcome Back, Kotter”), but a playground for the young and affluent.

Together, these forces can transform a neighborhood at alarming speed — and rapid change is the hardest for existing residents and small business owners to adapt to. Addressing any one in isolation won’t resolve the others, a reason why Mayor de Blasio’s plan to build our way out this mess by flooding the market with housing supply is running into resident opposition, because every new building also rebrands neighborhoods for those city-loving newcomers.

It took a complex set of forces to create the New Brooklyn; we’ll need to address all of them if we hope to make a borough that’s livable for all, not just for a few.



DeMause is author of “The Brooklyn Wars: The Stories Behind the Remaking of New York’s Most Celebrated Borough,” available at brooklynwars.com.
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  #49  
Old Posted Oct 16, 2016, 9:30 AM
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Or Bayonne.
You go wash your mouth out with soap, Bayonne will never be cool.
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  #50  
Old Posted Oct 17, 2016, 3:15 AM
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^ actually bayonne is above and beyond cool. i love that place its perfect just as it is.
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  #51  
Old Posted Oct 17, 2016, 4:30 PM
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Is Beverly Hills really just giant, gaudy estates? Only north of Sunset Blvd.
South of sunset but north of santa monica it's smaller, still gaudy "estates." but peppered with more historic structures and weird cali-tudor stuff with front facing garages. Thats's actually one of the most beautiful street grids I've ever seen, the way it sweeps (south of sunset/north of santa monica).
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  #52  
Old Posted Oct 18, 2016, 11:01 PM
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Probably the least known Brooklyn is Chinese Brooklyn. Huge Chinese communities now in Sunset Park, Bensonhurst, Dyker Heights, Bath Beach, Gravesend, Sheepshead Bay. 8th Avenue in Brooklyn (and 18th Ave. to lesser extent) are extremely important Chinese arteries (obviously the "lucky 8" played a big role in Chinese businesses gravitating to these streets). N train is majority Chinese these days.
Hasidic Brooklyn always seems to surprise visitors, too.
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  #53  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2016, 12:43 AM
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  #54  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2016, 5:00 AM
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Hasidic Brooklyn always seems to surprise visitors, too.
It's pretty well known. The Hasidic population is likely larger than the "hipster" population in Brooklyn.
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  #55  
Old Posted Oct 28, 2016, 6:16 AM
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This is the funniest, most out of touch thread I've seen here. Brooklyn is so cool many of my friends have been priced out and are looking to either Queens, The Bronx, or 45 minutes deep in Brooklyn. I'm one of three of my friends who still live in Manhattan. Brooklyn is post-cool. It has become The Man.
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  #56  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2016, 2:38 PM
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Art Deco America is the best America.
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  #57  
Old Posted Oct 29, 2016, 3:42 PM
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Does it really make a difference if its cool or not? It seems like the best future a city could hope for, long term, is to be eclectic and have a mixture of different cultures; whether ethnic, elite, trendy, ordinary, working class, etc.

My observation after reading about the history of neighborhoods in many different US cities is that "cool" neighborhoods are very ephemeral. You have to have a perfect mixture of just enough desirability clashing with affordability for certain kinds of activities to exist, and also the right people have to be there at the right moment to start the right things. Since cities are dynamic these conditions never last very long.

In the future hopefully NYC will continue to be this incredible muscular city that throws up big skyscrapers like its nothing and embraces its intensely cosmopolitan attitude. The more delicate things will always find their space in it. As time goes on, the oldest newer development will start to feel kind of old and cool stuff will recolonize those cut rate storefronts again.

Think about how in cities across America there are those ugly urban strip malls that are like their suburban cousins but don't have parking and might have an upstairs with offices. 40 years ago those replaced traditional brick shops and rowhouses and people were sad. But nowadays if you want to find an independent restaurant or small business or just a plain old barber shop or convenience store, those are where those things tend to be. Maybe in the future, some of these mixed use developments with either unoccupied ground floor retail or snobby hipster establishments selling cupcakes or dog day care will move on and become more neighborly business strips.
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  #58  
Old Posted Nov 1, 2016, 10:16 PM
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That's the better point...big chunks of Brooklyn have recently become desirable to higher-income people who five or ten years ago generally tried to live in Manhattan.

Bingo. I think that is the key story. NW Brooklyn has, for better or worse, arrived at its natural conclusion as a seemless extension of Manhattan. Complete with national chains, tourists, luxery condos, etc. Now NW Brooklyn basically serves the same market as Manhattan. The factor isn't price or vibe, but rather would you prefer the convenince of Mnahattan vs the extra space that comes with Brooklyn.

Park Slope/Cobble Hill is a little lower density version of the West Village, while Williamsburg is lower density alternative to the East Village.
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  #59  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2016, 12:07 AM
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Originally Posted by llamaorama View Post
Think about how in cities across America there are those ugly urban strip malls that are like their suburban cousins but don't have parking and might have an upstairs with offices. 40 years ago those replaced traditional brick shops and rowhouses and people were sad. But nowadays if you want to find an independent restaurant or small business or just a plain old barber shop or convenience store, those are where those things tend to be. Maybe in the future, some of these mixed use developments with either unoccupied ground floor retail or snobby hipster establishments selling cupcakes or dog day care will move on and become more neighborly business strips.
the reality is its increasingly cheaper for artists to live outside of major metropolitan areas rather than in them. i suspect you will see actual working artists shift en masse to suburbs and more rural areas where space is once again plentiful and cheap, and its already happening
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  #60  
Old Posted Nov 2, 2016, 12:41 AM
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Bohemian lifestyles don't translate that easily. Cheap space for living and art aren't useful if you need a car and gas money to get anywhere. Smaller urban cores and non-central neighborhoods would seem to be better than anything but very small slices of suburbia. Transit-served nodes with good third-generation space should do ok.
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