VIA Rail

[milomilo]

Any worthwhile infrastructure these days is about that amount. The sea to sky upgrade was $600 million, so that's the ballpark. If you want a railway that can provide any meaningful service, then you're going to need expensive upgrades such that enough railway capacity is available. And if we are only talking using the existing infrastructure, then it'll only be carrying a few hundred, maybe thousand, people a day - so what's the point?

[someone123]

Originally Posted by milomilo

And if we are only talking using the existing infrastructure, then it'll only be carrying a few hundred, maybe thousand, people a day - so what's the point?

I don't mean to be disrespectful but it feels like you are making up numbers and then using them to argue that the service cannot be worthwhile. I am not saying it is worthwhile, but I think it could be worthy of study.

Another factor for Whistler which often doesn't get mentioned is inclement weather. If the train were more reliable in snow, that would be a big benefit.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by someone123

I don't mean to be disrespectful but it feels like you are making up numbers and then using them to argue that the service cannot be worthwhile. I am not saying it is worthwhile, but I think it could be worthy of study.

Another factor for Whistler which often doesn't get mentioned is inclement weather. If the train were more reliable in snow, that would be a big benefit.

The thing with heavy rail run on freight tracks, you have very limited capacity and speed - see the west coast express. So to actually provide a service that is competitive with buses or cars then upgrades need to be made. Rail always seems nice, but they stopped running the services for a reason, and that was before the roads were improved. There might be more population and congestion now, but I would be skeptical that it tips the balance much.

A billion dollars is just an order of magnitude guess, but you can compare that to similar projects like the sea to sky highway upgrade or rail from Calgary to Banff. Yes if you just run a few trains a day on existing track it wouldn't cost that, but it wouldn't provide a whole lot of benefit either.

[casper]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Any worthwhile infrastructure these days is about that amount. The sea to sky upgrade was $600 million, so that's the ballpark. If you want a railway that can provide any meaningful service, then you're going to need expensive upgrades such that enough railway capacity is available. And if we are only talking using the existing infrastructure, then it'll only be carrying a few hundred, maybe thousand, people a day - so what's the point?

Is it. When BC Rail was operating the line it was some Bud cars running all the way to Prince Rupert (and stopping and returning half-way up every other day).

Some work may be required on the stations to integrate Compass payment cards.

[milomilo]

How many trains are you envisioning? A few DMUs a day can only be a thousand or so people, if they are even an attractive enough option for people to use. Will it be faster than a bus? Yes there is congestion on the roads, but the rail speed will surely be slow.

[zoomer]

I can’t see rail coming back to Victoria. To save a few million on the new 100 million dollar Johnson Street bridge rail wasn’t included meaning the line now terminates just before coming into downtown. Also the provincial government is now putting some offices in Langford so not all employees have to commute into Victoria, and with work from home here to stay, even with continued population growth I can’t see it becoming a pressing issue for another decade or two. With dedicated bus lanes getting people through the congestion the trip out to Langford goes quickly and bus rapid transit expansion is by far the most feasible option until there is a need for rapid transit likely not using the existing rail.

Within Victoria there is little public demand for rail coming back, in fact I’d say there is far more support for making this part of an already excellent cycling network. As for going up island, makes zero sense. Other transit options under exploration include a commuter ferry from the Westshore - although capacity would be limited never mind weather condition factors.

[someone123]

I wonder when battery electric trains will begin to be contemplated for these smaller projects. Maybe self-driving trains too. The self-driving train problem seems significantly easier than general-purpose self-driving cars.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by roger1818

A = the subsidy for the southern route,
B = the subsidy for the northern route,
C = the additional subsidy required for the Prince Rupert Train if you cancel the northern route.

while A < B,
A + C > B

Crap.... Now I need to teach you basic math and also how the existing Via routes are.

Right now, there is a train that does not connect to any other route. That would be the Sudbury - White River train. So, the Prince Rupert train could be the same. Or, it could have been extended to Calgary.

So, there for your math could have been

A+C or existing B+C.

Which still is about A being smaller than B

Originally Posted by roger1818

In the report I quoted, the "Commuter Rail Service" was from Victoria to Langford (from milepost 0 to milepost 10.06), a distance of 16 km, so granted it is about twice the length.

More failure at basic math. The other thing you don't take into consideration is the want of it extending to Duncan. That is when a DMU may not be enough.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by someone123

I wonder when battery electric trains will begin to be contemplated for these smaller projects. Maybe self-driving trains too. The self-driving train problem seems significantly easier than general-purpose self-driving cars.

Vancouver's Skytrain is self driving. You won't see self driving where it mixes with freight or other non self driving.

BEVs will be used once the costs of diesel is too high to keep it.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Crap.... Now I need to teach you basic math and also how the existing Via routes are.

Right now, there is a train that does not connect to any other route. That would be the Sudbury - White River train. So, the Prince Rupert train could be the same. Or, it could have been extended to Calgary.

So, there for your math could have been

A+C or existing B+C.

Which still is about A being smaller than B

You are assuming the cost of discontinuing the northern route (C) is the same as discontinuing the southern route.

Short answer: it isn't, and the better formula would have been:

A + C > B + D
(where D is the additional subsidy required for the White River Train if you cancel the southern route)

Long answer:

Since the RDCs aren't used anywhere else east of the Rockies, there is little cost advantage to having them maintained at TMC, so they do the most of the maintenance in Sudbury. Even if there was work that needed to be done at TMC, Sudbury station is less than 15 km from Sudbury Jct. (a short deadhead at minimal cost), where they could couple the unit on to the back of the Canadian and ship it for almost free.

The HEP cars and F40PH-2 locomotives used on the Skeena are regularly maintained in Vancouver (and at TMC), so the easiest way to maintain them is to couple them onto the back of the Canadian (swapping them out with freshly maintained ones). Without the northern route, you would need to deadhead them about 340 km from Tête Jaune Cache, BC, to Kamloops at significant cost.

More failure at basic math. The other thing you don't take into consideration is the want of it extending to Duncan. That is when a DMU may not be enough.

First of all, I am not sure why you think a DMU might not be enough. They are used on much longer routes in Germany.

Secondly, extending to Duncan isn't part of the "Commuter Rail Service" plan, so that would be in a future phase. if they did decide later to extend the service to Duncan, then Victoria could do as Ottawa did, and replace them when they do the upgrade (since they would have paid next to nothing for them).

TBH I am not sure any of this will happen though. With the new Johnson St. bridge not supporting trains, having a commuter train terminate east of the bridge is less than optimal.

Here is an map of the proposed "Commuter Rail Service" BTW.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Vancouver's Skytrain is self driving. You won't see self driving where it mixes with freight or other non self driving.

BEVs will be used once the costs of diesel is too high to keep it.

Umm. SkyTrain is fully electric and uses LIMs for propulsion. No diesel required. Besides, BEVs (self driving or not) don't solve congestion issues.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by roger1818

You are assuming the cost of discontinuing the northern route (C) is the same as discontinuing the southern route.

Short answer: it isn't, and the better formula would have been:

A + C > B + D
(where D is the additional subsidy required for the White River Train if you cancel the southern route)

Long answer:

Since the RDCs aren't used anywhere else east of the Rockies, there is little cost advantage to having them maintained at TMC, so they do the most of the maintenance in Sudbury. Even if there was work that needed to be done at TMC, Sudbury station is less than 15 km from Sudbury Jct. (a short deadhead at minimal cost), where they could couple the unit on to the back of the Canadian and ship it for almost free.

The HEP cars and F40PH-2 locomotives used on the Skeena are regularly maintained in Vancouver (and at TMC), so the easiest way to maintain them is to couple them onto the back of the Canadian (swapping them out with freshly maintained ones). Without the northern route, you would need to deadhead them about 340 km from Tête Jaune Cache, BC, to Kamloops at significant cost.

Or, they extended it to Calgary.

I will ask a simple question. Which line, the northern or the southern route had more subsidy to it?

Originally Posted by roger1818

First of all, I am not sure why you think a DMU might not be enough. They are used on much longer routes in Germany.

Secondly, extending to Duncan isn't part of the "Commuter Rail Service" plan, so that would be in a future phase. if they did decide later to extend the service to Duncan, then Victoria could do as Ottawa did, and replace them when they do the upgrade (since they would have paid next to nothing for them).

TBH I am not sure any of this will happen though. With the new Johnson St. bridge not supporting trains, having a commuter train terminate east of the bridge is less than optimal.

Here is an map of the proposed "Commuter Rail Service" BTW.

You ever live there?
Ever work for a major employer there?

I have.

If the single Budd car returned, and ran to meet commuter demand, but one once each way, before even getting to Langford it would be full. So, how many do you want?

There is a tunnel that restricts height, but if they were to make it higher, and be able to fit bilevels, they could fill 4+ on them, just going to the Dockyard. Do you know what is worse than the crawl? The Malahat.

So, no, the old Talents would not have been enough.

Originally Posted by roger1818

Umm. SkyTrain is fully electric and uses LIMs for propulsion. No diesel required. Besides, BEVs (self driving or not) don't solve congestion issues.

Yes, but they don't run on freight.

[casper]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Or, they extended it to Calgary.

I will ask a simple question. Which line, the northern or the southern route had more subsidy to it?



You ever live there?
Ever work for a major employer there?

I have.

If the single Budd car returned, and ran to meet commuter demand, but one once each way, before even getting to Langford it would be full. So, how many do you want?

There is a tunnel that restricts height, but if they were to make it higher, and be able to fit bilevels, they could fill 4+ on them, just going to the Dockyard. Do you know what is worse than the crawl? The Malahat.

So, no, the old Talents would not have been enough.

...

When I was living in Victoria I was surprised at how many people were based out of Duncan and coming in to Victoria to work a few days a week and they would try to work remotely the rest of the time. The same for Sooke.

If I was doing it, I would get two train sets. One based out of Duncan and a second out of Lanford. Have them going in and out Victoria all day long.

They could stop just short of the bridge until the ridership is demonstrated. They start looking at a second bridge.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by casper

When I was living in Victoria I was surprised at how many people were based out of Duncan and coming in to Victoria to work a few days a week and they would try to work remotely the rest of the time. The same for Sooke.

If I was doing it, I would get two train sets. One based out of Duncan and a second out of Lanford. Have them going in and out Victoria all day long.

They could stop just short of the bridge until the ridership is demonstrated. They start looking at a second bridge.

I don't think 2 are enough. If they were bilevels, I imagine 4 car trains would work with if there were at least 4 coming from Duncan. A WCE model, but shorter would work.

[casper]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I don't think 2 are enough. If they were bilevels, I imagine 4 car trains would work with if there were at least 4 coming from Duncan. A WCE model, but shorter would work.

I think the issue is the tunnel. I was think something similar to what is being used in Toronto on the GO, except outfitted for commuter rail in two or three car sets. Same cars in a commuter rail configuration are used in Soonoma.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonoma...#Rolling_stock

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by casper

I think the issue is the tunnel. I was think something similar to what is being used in Toronto on the GO, except outfitted for commuter rail in two or three car sets. Same cars in a commuter rail configuration are used in Soonoma.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonoma...#Rolling_stock

Yes, the tunnel is too low for bilevels. This is why I suggested making it bigger, or even remove it all together. If Commuter rail goes between Duncan and Victoria, I don't think single levels will be enough.

[casper]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I don't think 2 are enough. If they were bilevels, I imagine 4 car trains would work with if there were at least 4 coming from Duncan. A WCE model, but shorter would work.

I think the issue is the tunnel. I was think something similar to what is being used in Toronto on the GO, except outfitted for commuter rail in two or three car sets. Same cars in a commuter rail configuration are used in Soonoma.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonoma...#Rolling_stock

- ----
These have 80 seats per car. So 160 or 240 seats per train set. In a pinch each car can also accommodate another 80 standing passengers.

Added better link. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nippon_Sharyo_DMU

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by casper

I think the issue is the tunnel. I was think something similar to what is being used in Toronto on the GO, except outfitted for commuter rail in two or three car sets. Same cars in a commuter rail configuration are used in Soonoma.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonoma...#Rolling_stock

- ----
These have 80 seats per car. So 160 or 240 seats per train set. In a pinch each car can also accommodate another 80 standing passengers.

Added better link. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nippon_Sharyo_DMU

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardier_BiLevel_Coach

You have the same in one coach. If it is to cross the harbour, it needs to be as short as possible.

[casper]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Yes, the tunnel is too low for bilevels. This is why I suggested making it bigger, or even remove it all together. If Commuter rail goes between Duncan and Victoria, I don't think single levels will be enough.

I suspect there is a very good chance your right.

The bilevel units require a locomotive that means they take up quite a bit of space. Not certain that makes sense until you get to more than 4 cars per trainset.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by casper

I suspect there is a very good chance your right.

The bilevel units require a locomotive that means they take up quite a bit of space. Not certain that makes sense until you get to more than 4 cars per trainset.

If they ran 4/5 each way, having 4 cars each, that would be plenty. You might be able to get a way with 2 from up island and 2 from Langford.