Where Is The Rust Belt?

[Crawford]

It's not just the landscapes, but the villages. The average town in CT, or VT, or Hudson Valley, is just a lot prettier than the average town in Ohio or Indiana or Michigan. Much older, less sprawl, less generic feel. Tighter land controls yield sharper contrasts between village and country, where in the Midwest everything just bleeds together.

I feel that Western NY and much of PA, while they have the landscapes, don't quite have the quaint New Englandly villages. Once you get past the Finger Lakes or maybe Harrisburg, the towns don't quite have the same charm, IMO.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by edale

I don't think Erie and Pittsburgh's nearby wilderness belong in the same conversation as Upstate NY, Vermont, Western Mass, and northern/western Michigan. I mean, Erie is certainly no different than many of the Ohio lakeshore towns, and I have to imagine it receives far fewer tourists than Ohio's Lake Erie islands- especially Put-In-Bay. Considering all of Pittsburgh is basically nestled in the Appalachian mountains/foothills, I don't think people there would be drawn to whatever beauty could be found in the Alleghenies. Ohio has some beautiful areas of its own (in addition to the Lake Erie coastline and islands) like the Hocking Hills, and portions of the state are close to beautiful areas in WV, Michigan, and even Kentucky. None of these areas compete with the Berkshires of the world, but neither does anything in Western PA.

It doesn’t sound like you’re familiar with Pennsylvania at all, much less explored the mountains of western PA, vía hiking, skiing, hunting, camping, elk watching, rafting some of the best whitewater in the East, or fly fishing some of the best waters in the East. And it’s not a pissing pissing contest, but if you seriously are trying argue that Ohio is even anywhere near Pennsylvania when it comes to natural scenery, then you’re out of your mind.

But anyway, yeah Erie is different than Ohio’s lakeshore locales because it has 10 miles of beaches at its doorstep. They provide a major economic boost to a long-declining rustbelt city. And it also has mountains just to its southeast. Ohio lake locales do not have either.

And you are very wrong to think that people from Pittsburgh and elsewhere don’t visit the Allegheny Mountains. Ever heard of the Laurel Highlands, which are only about an hour away?

I’m not going to get into whether PA’s large scenic wilderness is as good, better, or worse than the other places you mention because it’s silly. But attempting to bring Ohio’s natural attributes into the discussion for comparison is even sillier.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Crawford

It's not just the landscapes, but the villages. The average town in CT, or VT, or Hudson Valley, is just a lot prettier than the average town in Ohio or Indiana or Michigan. Much older, less sprawl, less generic feel. Tighter land controls yield sharper contrasts between village and country, where in the Midwest everything just bleeds together.

I feel that Western NY and much of PA, while they have the landscapes, don't quite have the quaint New Englandly villages. Once you get past the Finger Lakes or maybe Harrisburg, the towns don't quite have the same charm, IMO.

Yes. Ohio does have some nice little quaint towns scattered around the state though. Some of them I’ve been to have a New England feel. Don’t know about Indiana.

They’re definitely more rusty in western NY and western PA (and NE PA coal country too) New Englandy village type of places are more in eastern PA.

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by pj3000

Yes. Ohio does have some nice little quaint towns scattered around the state though. Some of them I’ve been to have a New England feel. Don’t know about Indiana.

They’re definitely more rusty in western NY and western PA (and NE PA coal country too) New Englandy village type of places are more in eastern PA.

theres a few in indiana (and kentucky) like utopian villages that have some of the same charm as new england towns, like new harmony, indiana, with crisp clean town-edges. the climate and setting however is very lower midwest/upper south and the brick kentucky shaker and midland town architecture is pennsylvanianish with funny things like heavy brick rowhouse type structures in the middle of corn fields.

[Rooster slayer]

Guilty of not reading thread from beginning to now....But (and it may have been stated) the rust belt is a historical term. And it could be argued it started in Duluth MN when the steel/iron industry nosedived in the 70's.

[The North One]

Originally Posted by pj3000

I’m not going to get into whether PA’s large scenic wilderness is as good, better, or worse than the other places you mention because it’s silly. But attempting to bring Ohio’s natural attributes into the discussion for comparison is even sillier.

I don't see the point in debating this. West Virginia is arguably in the top 4 most scenic states in the country and we all know how that's working out for it.

[edale]

Originally Posted by pj3000

But anyway, yeah Erie is different than Ohio’s lakeshore locales because it has 10 miles of beaches at its doorstep. They provide a major economic boost to a long-declining rustbelt city. And it also has mountains just to its southeast. Ohio lake locales do not have either.

The Lake Erie Islands (Ohio) had 11 million tourists last year. I highly doubt Erie receives even a fraction of that number. Locals probably love the beaches, just like Clevelanders like Edgewater and Euclid beaches, but who's going to freakin' Erie, PA for a lakeside vacation? Between Cedar Point and the islands, Ohio's lake communities are most definitely a greater attraction than Erie.

Pennsylvania has some very beautiful areas. My point was that "mountainous" (really more like severe hills) areas aren't a huge attraction for people who already live in similar environments. People from NYC and Boston go to the Berkshires because it's a totally different environment than what exists in and around those cities. A Pittsburgher going up to the Laurel Highlands would basically be seeing an environment that looks like Pittsburgh without the urbanization. Hence why rural western PA isn't a tourist enclave ala Western Mass. Also, as Crawford mentioned, there isn't anything similar to the cultural outposts and charming small towns that exist more in the rural Northeast. There are no doubt charming towns that exist basically everywhere, Ohio and Indiana included, but they don't have the same chache or cosmopolitanism that exists in the NE.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by The North One

I don't see the point in debating this. West Virginia is arguably in the top 4 most scenic states in the country and we all know how that's working out for it.

WV scenery isn't much different from surrounding states, and very few towns are attractive to prosperous metropolitan dwellers. Plus massive environmental and scenic damage from strip mining and lack of regulation.

Yeah, most of the state is pretty, but trailers in the woods with polluted creeks and gorged out hills aren't good building blocks for a visitor economy.

[Shawn]

Western Mass at least has about 100,000 college students spread throughout a dozen or so small and medium-sized schools. Then you have a whole bunch of private prep academies and boarding schools, some of which enroll Saudi princes and Korean chaebol scions. Google Deerfield Academy or the Groton School to get a sense. All within an hour’s drive or so of each other. Lots of well-paying jobs at these schools (plus the students themselves) to pump more disposable income into the area year-round.

When you think about the standout charming Western Mass towns, most have a school. I don’t think this is the same situation in the Midwest (or northern New England, for that matter).

Also, just a thought about the year-round point: lots of scenic northern New England towns are next to or close to ski resorts, which double as hiking and biking resorts in the summer. They get strong tourism throughout the whole year.

[Buckeye Native 001]

Can we all at least agree that Northwest Ohio is ugly and that Michigan won the battle for the Toledo Strip by eventually acquiring the Upper Peninsula as compensation?

[Shawn]

Originally Posted by Buckeye Native 001

Can we all at least agree that Northwest Ohio is ugly and that Michigan won the battle for the Toledo Strip by eventually acquiring the Upper Peninsula as compensation?

Was that the actual outcome? The UP as formal compensation? If so, yeah...I think we can all agree

[Buckeye Native 001]

I don't remember, to be honest. I just know that in the long run, Michigan got the UP and Ohio got...Toledo

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by The North One

I don't see the point in debating this. West Virginia is arguably in the top 4 most scenic states in the country and we all know how that's working out for it.

There’s not really much of a debate. There is the fact that rustbelt cities that feature or are in close proximity to popular scenic tourist areas benefit economically from that, and may be in better overall shape currently or potentially will be in the future.

And the same holds entirely true for West Virginia. Without its natural amenities that attract significant tourism, it would be in far worse shape than it is.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by edale

The Lake Erie Islands (Ohio) had 11 million tourists last year. I highly doubt Erie receives even a fraction of that number. Locals probably love the beaches, just like Clevelanders like Edgewater and Euclid beaches, but who's going to freakin' Erie, PA for a lakeside vacation? Between Cedar Point and the islands, Ohio's lake communities are most definitely a greater attraction than Erie.

Pennsylvania has some very beautiful areas. My point was that "mountainous" (really more like severe hills) areas aren't a huge attraction for people who already live in similar environments. People from NYC and Boston go to the Berkshires because it's a totally different environment than what exists in and around those cities. A Pittsburgher going up to the Laurel Highlands would basically be seeing an environment that looks like Pittsburgh without the urbanization. Hence why rural western PA isn't a tourist enclave ala Western Mass. Also, as Crawford mentioned, there isn't anything similar to the cultural outposts and charming small towns that exist more in the rural Northeast. There are no doubt charming towns that exist basically everywhere, Ohio and Indiana included, but they don't have the same chache or cosmopolitanism that exists in the NE.

Presque Isle attracts over 4 million people a year, many from throughout western PA, NYS, and eastern OH. In the summer, on the weekend, it often seems like a third of the cars have Ohio or NY plates. It’s an economic asset for a rustbelt city like Erie. Lots of people go there whether you want to believe that or not. The Lake Erie islands I’m sure receive a ton of tourism, but they are not a rustbelt city. That’s the topic here.

Also... Edgewater and Euclid beaches Must suck to have all that lakeshore in Ohio and these are what you got. Meanwhile, PA barely has any lakeshore, yet it contains lake Erie’s best beaches.... by far. And oh yeah, one other thing, which ski resorts do you go to near Ohio’s lakeshore?

The Laurel Highland are a lot different than Pittsburgh. You can call the Appalachian Mountains hills all you want, but the fact is that they are not. There are not ski resorts in Pittsburgh, nor is there whitewater rafting and kayaking, nor fly fishing, nor mountain cabins last time I checked. The attracts a lot of tourism from outside of the Pittsburgh area too, namely the DC-Baltimore areas.

[suburbanite]

If New York City bordered West Virginia the river valleys would probably be lined with cottages and there would be numerous well-kept touristy towns like upstate New York has.

Scenery by itself isnt some magical formula.

[The North One]

Originally Posted by pj3000

There’s not really much of a debate. There is the fact that rustbelt cities that feature or are in close proximity to popular scenic tourist areas benefit economically from that, and may be in better overall shape currently or potentially will be in the future.

And the same holds entirely true for West Virginia. Without its natural amenities that attract significant tourism, it would be in far worse shape than it is.

This is contrary to all observable evidence. Most towns in PA are as depressed as it gets and they sit in the middle of mountains and dramatic valleys. Very stereotypical cliché dead resource towns overrun with opioids and it's the same as the little bit of Appalachia in the Ohio River Valley, which scenically the Ohio portion is almost identical to most of PA.

New England and parts of upstate NY get day trip vacation money from the Northeast, massive rich cities that lie directly below them and even then it's only select cities that managed to capture a tourist reputation. It's the same in northern Michigan, they've got annual Chicago/Detroit money supporting them. That's the economic phenomenon here. Really you'd have a better argument that most of these places in PA never became anything because of their unfavorable geography.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by suburbanite

If New York City bordered West Virginia the river valleys would probably be lined with cottages and there would be numerous well-kept touristy towns like upstate New York has.

Scenery by itself isnt some magical formula.

Yes, it would. Proximity to big population centers and lots of money has everything to do with it.

Though I do think people in general have a very narrow understanding of West Virginia... like it is all some hillbilly backwoods coal mine hell. It’s not. The state is more diverse than most realize. Southern and southwestern WV doe have a lot of coal mining and is the heartland for opioid and meth addiction. Border areas near PA and OH are much more rustbelt-like with prosperous areas and lots of vacation homes. Central WV is all about small towns and tourism to the river valleys. Eastern WV is more “colonial” and wealthy in areas with influence from DC, MD, VA

[dc_denizen]

Originally Posted by The North One

This is contrary to all observable evidence. Most towns in PA are as depressed as it gets and they sit in the middle of mountains and dramatic valleys. Very stereotypical cliché dead resource towns overrun with opioids and it's the same as the little bit of Appalachia in the Ohio River Valley, which scenically the Ohio portion is almost identical to most of PA.

waht? have you been to these towns or are you just assuming?

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by The North One

This is contrary to all observable evidence. Most towns in PA are as depressed as it gets and they sit in the middle of mountains and dramatic valleys. Very stereotypical cliché dead resource towns overrun with opioids and it's the same as the little bit of Appalachia in the Ohio River Valley, which scenically the Ohio portion is almost identical to most of PA.

New England and parts of upstate NY get day trip vacation money from the Northeast, massive rich cities that lie directly below them and even then it's only select cities that managed to capture a tourist reputation. It's the same in northern Michigan, they've got annual Chicago/Detroit money supporting them. That's the economic phenomenon here. Really you'd have a better argument that most of these places in PA never became anything because of their unfavorable geography.

Most towns in PA are not as “depressed as it gets” first of all. That’s a complete mischaracterization.

Second, are you seriously attempting to assert that the Ohio portion of the the Ohio River Valley is scenically “almost identical to most of PA”? Because if you seriously are doing so, then you are either blind, somehow mentally deficient, simply lying, or just have never been to either place and never even seen photos..

Third, are you confidently asserting that tourism to natural areas within or in close proximity to rustbelt cities does not benefit them economically? Because that’s the issue here. And a long-declining rustbelt city like Erie benefits tremendously from regional tourism, simply because there is water and beaches there. It’s obviously not some major national destination by any means, but tourism is a significant part of the economy there and the area would be much worse off if that tourism component did not exist.

[dc_denizen]

some depressed PA towns

Downtown Bellefonte, PA by Joseph, on Flickr

Downtown Williamsport by Donnie King, on Flickr

State College, PA trip June '07 by bmovers, on Flickr