When did Toronto pass Montreal? - Page 3

Razor · #41 Posted **Feb 17, 2020, 4:39 AM**

Montreal had one thing over Toronto..That being the subject of a silly childhood Halloween trick or treat chant for the doors..

"Trick or treat, smell my feet give me something good to eat.
Not too big, not to small...Just the size of Montreal"

Back then, even the kids put Montreal in the fore front.

jd3189 · #42 Posted **Feb 17, 2020, 5:14 AM**

Haven’t been to Toronto yet, but as I said in a Canadian thread, Montreal for a long time was the only Canadian city I knew about growing up, which made me think the whole country was heavily French influenced. Recently visiting it a few months ago, Montreal is still a great old school urban city, not too different from Brooklyn and Philly in terms of layout and vibe with the unique French/ foreign aspect.

Toronto, from what I have seen, is a great urban city as well, but it seems like it’s a work in progress. It’s still growing and making a mark. I’m sure it has historic neighborhoods and other old aspects of it, but based on the photo threads I’ve seen, Toronto is building itself to be futuristic or more modern in a sense. Vancouver also gives me that vibe, even more so with the tons of towers being built.

While Toronto grows to be a more action-filled metro, I’m assuming that Montreal will retain a more low-key position, focusing more on its cultural amenities while still having good economic growth opportunities. It may not be as good as Toronto economically, but that’s alright.

ssiguy · #43 Posted **Feb 17, 2020, 5:32 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minato Ku

Toronto opened its subway twelve years before Montreal.
So, the idea that Toronto was backwater and Montreal was everything needs to be reviewed.

It's very true, Toronto was never a backwater. Post-war Toronto had successive decades of exeptionally good urban planning which is why the city has so many vibrant, attractive, and walkable neighbourhoods today. It stopped the urban expressways and horrid "urban renewal" programs of the 1950/60s that plagued so many cities. Outside of the waterfront which was scarred by industry, railways, the port, and parking lots, Toronto was actually quite a handsome city.

Toronto prided itself on it's post-war reputation of "clean, green, and safe" and it very much was all those things in spades. It was also known by urban planners worldwide as "the city that works" because the city was run so well and was efficient and pleasant and urban planner would come from all over the world to study how Toronto managed to do it at a time when most inner cities were falling into decay.. It was once referred to {in both a flattering and insulting way} as New York run by the Swiss.

The problem for Toronto is that it was also reserved, conservative, and numbingly boring. For most, Toronto was a wonderful city to get a good job, raise your kids, and catch up on your sleep.

ssiguy · #44 Posted **Feb 17, 2020, 5:50 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Razor

Montreal had one thing over Toronto..That being the subject of a silly childhood Halloween trick or treat chant for the doors..

"Trick or treat, smell my feet give me something good to eat.
Not too big, not to small...Just the size of Montreal"

Back then, even the kids put Montreal in the fore front.

Of course one cannot forget the classic that Montrealers use to throw Toronto's way to disparage and humiliate it even more than they already did:

1st prize...……….. one week in Toronto
2nd prize...………. two weeks in Toronto
3rd prize...……….. three weeks in Toronto

softee · #45 Posted **Feb 17, 2020, 5:54 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by ssiguy

The problem for Toronto is that it was also reserved, conservative, and numbingly boring. For most, Toronto was a wonderful city to get a good job, raise your kids, and catch up on your sleep.

The last time that was even sort of true was a good 70 years ago, by the 1950s the city was rapidly shedding all those old hangups. Loads of other cities in the first half of the 20th century were just as reserved, conservative and dull as Toronto at the time.

Yuri · #46 Posted **Feb 17, 2020, 10:20 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThePhun1

Rio still has Sao Paulo on culture.

I’d say there’s a parity, in any case, in a field there was no competition. While Rio is the seat of most TV and cinema productions, São Paulo has better universities, colleges, it’s ahead on fashion, design, architecture, creative industries in general. As I said, even in culture and tourism (!!!) São Paulo is now fighting as equals and probably will eventually surpass as it did in everything else.

Yuri · #47 Posted **Feb 17, 2020, 10:27 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nite

what about Melbourne v Sydney or Rome v Milan

There was no a real surpass in those cases. Sydney has always been bigger than Melbourne except for a couple decades 150 years ago, and never grew much bigger than its rival to become the country only primary city. About Italy, correct if I’m wrong, but Milan and Rome are pretty much the same size since Renaissance. Milan grew bigger with industrialization, but nothing as dramatic as Rome was also growing fast.

In any case, Canada and Brazil had once one primary city, then they evolved into a binary system and finally they former second cities became their primary cities alone.

That’s why Canada and Brazil are unique in this regard.

Yuri · #48 Posted **Feb 17, 2020, 10:47 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack

Brazil does not have anything like a nation within the nation that is Quebec/French Canada.

For the most part Toronto and Montréal do not intrude on each other's turf.

Of course not on the same scale, but despite the small distance between them, São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro are completely different culturally, even ordinary social habits tend to shock each other. Rio is easygoing, messy, loud while São Paulo is tight, work oriented, “polite”. And those are no common places, it reflects on people attitudes on daily basis. Brazil is a country with strong regional cultures and that applies to the two biggest cities as well.

————————————————————

Reading the Canadians, there also another thing in common: Toronto’s rise as a cultural, tourism center almost 30 years ago after the surpass, also happened in Brazil.

Up to 15 years ago, no paulistano wanted to spend the weekend on the city. People would head straight to the beaches or the countryside. Then, the inhabitants started to appreciate the urban life, the endless number of bars, restaurants are always packed on weekends. Domestic tourism, non-existent till few years ago, skyrocketed: São Paulo became a huge tourism destination specially for young people.

I tend to root for the underdogs, and that’s why I’d like to see Rio de Janeiro and Montreal rising again, but unfortunately it won’t happen, specially for Rio.

Acajack · #49 Posted **Feb 17, 2020, 2:08 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawford

Re-read my post.

Toronto obviously has far more visitors, given it's a much bigger city with far more businesses and immigrants. But it isn't a bigger tourist center.

I've probably traveled to Toronto 25-30 times for business, and maybe a dozen times for family/relatives. Never traveled to Montreal for either. But I know plenty more people vacationing in Montreal from NYC, because it's different. Toronto doesn't feel appreciably different from an American city.

I'd add that overnight visitor numbers and tourism stats are apples and oranges with what cities include or not varying tremendously. It's akin to fishermen discussing the size of the fish they caught.

The number of overnight visitors cited by Toronto officials arguably makes Toronto a global tourist magnet on the same level as Las Vegas, significantly ahead of Miami and maybe even nipping at the heels of Orlando.

I'll leave it up to the reader to make up their minds as to whether or not that's realistic.

Crawford · #50 Posted **Feb 17, 2020, 2:22 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister F

Got any numbers to prove that? Personal anecdotes and your personal opinion are meaningless.

Then what is the point of this thread, since it's all anecdote?

Importance is completely subjective. There are no "numbers" parsing out whether a visitor is coming because of a Podiatry conference or because of an iconic attraction. I don't have any "numbers" to "prove" that Paris is a greater leisure tourist destination than Moose Jaw, but that doesn't mean my subjective observations aren't correct.

Acajack · #51 Posted **Feb 17, 2020, 2:29 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawford

Then what is the point of this thread, since it's all anecdote?

Importance is completely subjective. There are no "numbers" parsing out whether a visitor is coming because of a Podiatry conference or because of an iconic attraction. I don't have any "numbers" to "prove" that Paris is a greater leisure tourist destination than Moose Jaw, but that doesn't mean my subjective observations aren't correct.

Being an air travel hub also makes a big difference in overnight visitors. Toronto's airport has three times as many passengers as Montreal's. So you have tons of people who overnight at the Hilton Garden Inn Toronto Airport on their way from Thunder Bay to Punta Cana, or people from Zagreb, Croatia who are flying to visit relatives in Winnipeg but who need to connect through Toronto airport.

Frankfurt-am-Main actually has more overnight visitors than Munich, likely due to this reason, and its status as a major European banking centre.

Acajack · #52 Posted **Feb 17, 2020, 3:07 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by yuriandrade

Of course not on the same scale, but despite the small distance between them, São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro are completely different culturally, even ordinary social habits tend to shock each other. Rio is easygoing, messy, loud while São Paulo is tight, work oriented, “polite”. And those are no common places, it reflects on people attitudes on daily basis. Brazil is a country with strong regional cultures and that applies to the two biggest cities as well.

I tend to root for the underdogs, and that’s why I’d like to see Rio de Janeiro and Montreal rising again, but unfortunately it won’t happen, specially for Rio.

I can appreciate all of that. In this country the "scenes'" in English Canada and French Canada are "national" in feel in both cases, and there is actually minimal cross-pollination between the two.

So while in Brazil because of the common language you will routinely have a TV show, magazine, book or film produced in one city being very popular in the other, in Canada this basically never happens.

So what happens in Montreal and its influence "zone" generally gets ignored by Toronto and its "zone". And vice-versa. Unless it's something very specific like a popular anglo band from Montreal like Arcade Fire, or an artist from Toronto like The Weeknd that becomes globally popular after being propelled by the U.S. showbiz machine, and as a result people in Quebec will know him.

Awards shows in Toronto/Anglo-Canada
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63Pt6YuO6p8

Awards shows in Montreal/Quebec/French Canada
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63Pt6YuO6p8

National news in Toronto/Anglo-Canada
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2UdndwZEeM

National news in Montreal/Quebec/French Canada
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pQn2NjKXB0

Weather channel in Toronto/Anglo-Canada
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMCO3rHpryw

Weather channel in Montreal/Quebec/French Canada
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmu2mxdt2Zg

All-sports channels in Toronto/Anglo-Canada
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IO5MZRHl9hA

All-sports channels in Montreal/Quebec/French Canada
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtiRaiTmQg0

I just used TV as an example, but it also applies to movie premieres, school book publishers, professional associations and certifications. Basically, if you can think of anything that exists "for a nation" in its biggest city, for Canada it generally exists in both Toronto and Montreal.

Crawford · #53 Posted **Feb 17, 2020, 3:13 PM**

Does the CBC have, say, a French-language version of "The National"? Is there a Peter Mansbridge-type based out of Montreal?

I get that broadcast news is kind of an anachronism, but just curious if Canada's state media occupies both cultural spheres equally.

Acajack · #54 Posted **Feb 17, 2020, 3:21 PM**

And now, if I may have some fun at the expense of my Torontonian/Anglo-Canadian friends (all in good fun

Acajack · #55 Posted **Feb 17, 2020, 3:29 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawford

Does the CBC have, say, a French-language version of "The National"? Is there a Peter Mansbridge-type based out of Montreal?

I get that broadcast news is kind of an anachronism, but just curious if Canada's state media occupies both cultural spheres equally.

Yeah, she's in the fourth video that I posted just above your message.

The CBC has a totally independent parallel operation for its French services in Montreal. This includes generalist mainstream TV networks for which it produces its own news, sports, variety, drama, game show, comedy, public affairs, etc. programming.

It also has an all-news TV network in French, and an arts channel (partnered with the French-German ARTE channel), a discovery channel called Explora and maybe others I am forgetting.

The same complex in Montreal also runs national and international radio networks in French.

Like the English CBC, the French CBC also has an archipelago of regional stations (both TV and radio) across Canada which produce daily local TV news as well as local radio programs (AM and PM drive shows mostly).

iheartthed · #56 Posted **Feb 17, 2020, 4:25 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawford

Perhaps also Berlin-Frankfurt and Rome-Milan? And as with Rio-SP, the legacy city is still far more prominent globally and for leisure travelers.

Yeah, except in the cases of Rome and Berlin they at least remained the capital city of their respective countries, while Rio hasn't been the capital of Brazil since 1960. China might also kind of fit into this dynamic too, since Shanghai is the financial center and biggest city, but Beijing has the bigger profile outside of China and is the capital.

iheartthed · #57 Posted **Feb 17, 2020, 4:36 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by JManc

I grew up in Upstate NY and equidistant to both Montreal and Toronto and Montreal always seemed to loom larger when I was a kid in the 80's and it wasn't until the 90's that Toronto seemed to take off.

There was a massive tourism campaign that promoted Toronto in the early and mid 90s. That always gave me the impression that Toronto was the primary city in Canada, even though it really wasn't at that time. I don't really recall any campaigns promoting Montreal.

Mister F · #58 Posted **Feb 17, 2020, 5:04 PM**

^It's been the primary city since the 1970s. Although it hasn't always acted like it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawford

Then what is the point of this thread, since it's all anecdote?

Importance is completely subjective. There are no "numbers" parsing out whether a visitor is coming because of a Podiatry conference or because of an iconic attraction. I don't have any "numbers" to "prove" that Paris is a greater leisure tourist destination than Moose Jaw, but that doesn't mean my subjective observations aren't correct.

If you're going to make a claim be prepared to back it up. And Montreal has a tonne of conferences too.

Acajack · #59 Posted **Feb 17, 2020, 5:28 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by ssiguy

In Canada, that question is no longer valid as the obvious answer {including by 90% of Montrealers} is Toronto..

I guess, in a kind of "oh yeah... that's right" kind of way.

As I mentioned with my Geneva-Zurich example, when you're in Montreal you don't really get the impression that there is another big city that matters in the human space that you're in. Viewed from Montreal if there are "big brother" cities, it's NYC or Paris that people would think of first. Not Toronto.

It's not like when you're in Chicago and the talk shows or news programs, or national magazines, or book publishers, or the professional association you belong to, are likely to be based in New York.

Chicago is still a huge city but some of its best and brightest still go to NYC (or LA) to make it.

If you're a French-speaking Canadian involved in most fields (artistic especially but others as well), Montreal is where you "make it". If you have your sights set on something bigger you either go to Paris, or brush up on your English and go to NYC-LA.

And while a lot of businesses that left Montreal for Toronto in the 70s and 80s, they were basically all anglo-controlled or international companies. Since then the francophone business class has literally exploded in Montreal and Quebec, and I can't think of any corporation controlled by francophones that has moved to Toronto from Montreal. Or any that might even do so. For them, Montreal is their "big city". Toronto is still an alluring place to do business (and many of them are present there), but to them it's basically the same as Chicago, NYC, Houston, etc. - only with a little less paperwork. They wouldn't move their HQ there just because it's the largest city in the country they happen to be located in.

lio45 · #60 Posted **Feb 17, 2020, 5:28 PM**

The claim that those numbers include a ton of people who didn't choose to go there but instead are going there only because that's where the business they have to visit happens to be located or because it's where their flight connects doesn't need to be backed up, it's a fact.