Where Is The Rust Belt?

[Docere]

From Richard Harris, Unplanned Suburbs:

"The city's single largest industry was garment manufacturing...Indeed, Toronto was not really an industrial center at all, at least not in the manner of a Pittsburgh, Cleveland or Detroit. It was a provincial capital, a retail and financial center, and much of its industry - furniture manufacturing and food processing, for example - served local needs."

https://books.google.ca/books?id=EF2...uburbs&f=false

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by suburbanite

Red brick on the sides here. The inverse Chicago.

yeah, that yellow face brick to the orangey-red side brick is a new one for me. i can't recall ever seeing anything like that in chicago.

but it's not exactly inverse chicago because we have a fair amount of yellow face brick around town too, but the common side brick often just takes on earthy browns, tans, and taupes in aggregate, helped along by the typically "heavy" mortar joints because common brick was usually made pretty rough (ie. inexpensively)

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9667...7i16384!8i8192

[eschaton]

In Pittsburgh, that red brick is the "common brick." It was probably monotonous back in 1900 or so, where every building not made of wood or stone was basically the same red color. The blond brick would have stood out at that time - particularly before it started getting grimy.

My own house is a lovely orange brick all the way around, but I know that's just the outer layer of bricks, with the inside of my fireplaces showing the exact same red color you see everywhere in Pitsburgh.

[edale]

Speaking of Pittsburgh, I've always loved the white/pale yellow brick that many of the buildings on Carnegie Melon's campus were built with.

[The North One]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

chicago's common brick is so much more noticeable than detroit's because chicago has orders of magnitude more of it left.

No, Chicago common is noticeable because it's ugly as fucking sin. lmfao

Nobody has brick as ugly as Chicago common. Nobody has this in the back, front, sideways, backwards or whatever. Brick is present in literally every neighborhood in Detroit....

Has zero, sip, zilch to do with any other city.

[The North One]

Originally Posted by eschaton

In Pittsburgh, that red brick is the "common brick."

Wrong, you see here Pittsburgh has numerically less brick than Chicagoland, therefore you just don't notice the ugly brick in Pittsburgh that totes looks just like Chicago common, you just dont notice it. My logic is sound.

[Handro]

Originally Posted by The North One

No, Chicago common is noticeable because it's ugly as fucking sin. lmfao

Nobody has brick as ugly as Chicago common. Nobody has this in the back, front, sideways, backwards or whatever. Brick is present in literally every neighborhood in Detroit....

Has zero, sip, zilch to do with any other city.

Well that’s certainly subjective, there’s a sizable market for reclaimed Chicago common brick.

http://www.masonrydesignmagazine.com...-common-brick/

[jtown,man]

Originally Posted by The North One

No, Chicago common is noticeable because it's ugly as fucking sin. lmfao

Nobody has brick as ugly as Chicago common. Nobody has this in the back, front, sideways, backwards or whatever. Brick is present in literally every neighborhood in Detroit....

Has zero, sip, zilch to do with any other city.

Dude, you are so quick to criticize any city but are the most defensive person on Earth about Detriot. Basically, you can give it but can't take shit.

Chicago has some ugly brick. Alright, we get it. However, most of it is concealed from people because of it's dense and still intact city blocks. The same cannot be said of Detroit, by any stretch of the imagination. Dense and intact neighborhoods are rare. So you might have nicer brick, but it doesn't mean much when its the only structure on a street.

[craigs]

I think it is fair to say that installing the best brickwork or stonework on the facade is the norm in most of the world, for most of history. That's not just a Chicago thing.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by jtown,man

Dude, you are so quick to criticize any city but are the most defensive person on Earth about Detriot. Basically, you can give it but can't take shit.

Chicago has some ugly brick. Alright, we get it. However, most of it is concealed from people because of it's dense and still intact city blocks. The same cannot be said of Detroit, by any stretch of the imagination. Dense and intact neighborhoods are rare. So you might have nicer brick, but it doesn't mean much when its the only structure on a street.

I think the parts of Detroit that still have tons of brick structures left are mostly unknown to outsiders. This neighborhood has seen better days, but it's still full of brick structures:

https://goo.gl/maps/Q3C9ZSQ2WUkPAUDdA

That style of 2, 3, and 4 family flat houses built in brick stretches on for miles. It's actually weird to hear people say that Detroit doesn't have many brick structures left. Most of the city is brick.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by craigs

I think it is fair to say that installing the best brickwork or stonework on the facade is the norm in most of the world, for most of history. That's not just a Chicago thing.

Exactly. And what "common" brick is varies depending on location. Here, yellow brick facade with the three hidden sides being red brick is what you'll see, never the other way around. Local brick here is red, local brick is always the cheapest, the three sides that are hidden are always going to be local brick, whatever that is.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

That style of 2, 3, and 4 family flat houses built in brick stretches on for miles. It's actually weird to hear people say that Detroit doesn't have many brick structures left. Most of the city is brick.

Most of the West Side (the traditionally prosperous side) is brick. The East Side, and SW Detroit, have very little brick. Also, the fringes of the far West side, near the burbs, has little brick.

But yeah, the old Jewish corridor from downtown, northwest to 8 Mile is almost entirely brick. But it's heavily decimated, esp. south of 6 Mile. Dexter and Linwood are in terrible shape.

[dc_denizen]

Dexter looks like a post apocalyptic squirrel hill

[jtown,man]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

I think the parts of Detroit that still have tons of brick structures left are mostly unknown to outsiders. This neighborhood has seen better days, but it's still full of brick structures:

https://goo.gl/maps/Q3C9ZSQ2WUkPAUDdA

That style of 2, 3, and 4 family flat houses built in brick stretches on for miles. It's actually weird to hear people say that Detroit doesn't have many brick structures left. Most of the city is brick.

Oh I know. I just wanted to be a douche to match his comments.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Most of the West Side (the traditionally prosperous side) is brick. The East Side, and SW Detroit, have very little brick. Also, the fringes of the far West side, near the burbs, has little brick.

But yeah, the old Jewish corridor from downtown, northwest to 8 Mile is almost entirely brick. But it's heavily decimated, esp. south of 6 Mile. Dexter and Linwood are in terrible shape.

Far Northeast Detroit has a lot of brick single family housing. Also, there was a bit of brick structures in the older sections of the near east side, but much of that has been destroyed/demolished (a lot of stuff like this: https://goo.gl/maps/VqsGCCi7VuSgD2Sn9). There were, of course, a lot of houses built out of wood, but it seems like that gets very overstated on this forum.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

Dexter looks like a post apocalyptic squirrel hill

It's fascinating to me how fast that neighborhood fell. In the 1990s it was one of the most densely occupied areas of the city, and probably one of the most densely populated areas in the entire Midwest, outside of Chicago. It was poorer, but there were almost no vacant houses or empty lots. Now it appears to be mostly vacant.

[The North One]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

I think the parts of Detroit that still have tons of brick structures left are mostly unknown to outsiders. This neighborhood has seen better days, but it's still full of brick structures:

https://goo.gl/maps/Q3C9ZSQ2WUkPAUDdA

That style of 2, 3, and 4 family flat houses built in brick stretches on for miles. It's actually weird to hear people say that Detroit doesn't have many brick structures left. Most of the city is brick.

Yep there is brick everywhere.

North end is full of brick (lots of new construction and renovations here BTW):
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3764...7i16384!8i8192

Southwest has plenty brick:
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3146...7i16384!8i8192

Russel Woods is all brick and essentially fully in tact:
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3857...7i16384!8i8192

Midtown is full of Brick:
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3527...7i16384!8i8192
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3524...7i16384!8i8192

University District is 90%+ brick with zero blight and zero vacant lots:
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4227...7i16384!8i8192

Like I could go on with examples. A Chicagoan trying to tell me I don't notice brick in Detroit is Hilarious. Example number 896,982,395 of armchair urbanist experts on Skyscraperpage knowing next to nothing about Detroit. Can't say I'm surprised.

[Handro]

Originally Posted by The North One

Yep there is brick everywhere.

North end is full of brick (lots of new construction and renovations here BTW):
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3764...7i16384!8i8192

Southwest has plenty brick:
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3146...7i16384!8i8192

Russel Woods is all brick and essentially fully in tact:
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3857...7i16384!8i8192

Midtown is full of Brick:
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3527...7i16384!8i8192
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3524...7i16384!8i8192

University District is 90%+ brick with zero blight and zero vacant lots:
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4227...7i16384!8i8192

Like I could go on with examples. A Chicagoan trying to tell me I don't notice brick in Detroit is Hilarious. Example number 896,982,395 of armchair urbanist experts on Skyscraperpage knowing next to nothing about Detroit. Can't say I'm surprised.

You are so right! The brick street scapes in “brick oasis” Detroit are so much more appealing than the ones in “ugly as sin” Chicago.

https://goo.gl/maps/PkmuPfmTgfnBHA6cA
https://goo.gl/maps/sS6DQ9fRREBzSGfg8
https://goo.gl/maps/VXVQaG5Q2txe5Tkf7
https://goo.gl/maps/MteYuPkF2KcKbKaY6
https://goo.gl/maps/QGPAT4HqVksEqyDh9

Per your Detroit examples, is there a pre-war, semi-urban area anywhere in the northern part of the US that doesn’t have a few blocks of brick homes? Not sure what your point is other than “there are some brick buildings in the Detroit area”, which I don’t think anyone would argue.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

It's actually weird to hear people say that Detroit doesn't have many brick structures left.

I didn't say Detroit didn't have any brick structures left, I said that Detroit has lost far more of its vintage brick multi-family vernacular than Chicago.

I don't know how anyone could disagree with that contention.

[hammersklavier]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

^ what you're seeing on the side of that building is chicago common brick.

sited on a former marsh, chicago had PLENTIFUL clay for making bricks (at one time cook county had 60 active brickyards), but our clay had terrible color consistency, so the mottled bricks it produced (browns, yellows, oranges, salmons, etc.) were deemed inappropriate for front facades.

that's why it was used on the non-street facing facades of just about every single vintage masonry building in the city. face brick (or stone or terracotta) was then imported from other places with more color consistent clay that was used on the front facades of the city's masonry buildings.



close-up of chicago common brick, displaying its trademark mottled appearance:


source:https://www.brickofchicago.com/chicagocommon

Glazing that stuff would certainly make for an aesthetically interesting façade material. Just sayin'.

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

there's an alternate universe out there somewhere where the civil war didn't happen and st. louis became the alpha city of the interior, with all of the railroads, leaving chicago to develop as a more modest milwaukee or cleveland-sized great lakes city.

In the bulk of possible scenarios, St. Louis would be the American interior's dominant city. There's a reason why Cahokia's ruins are to be found in the St. Louis metro: the region was the greatest crossroads of trade routes to be found on the continent when trade would have been conducted primary or exclusively via navigation. It is in St. Louis where the main north-south trade route running up the Mississippi meets the main east-west one running down the Ohio and up the Missouri.

Had St. Louis had time to claim its primate role before the railroads came, it is unlikely Chicago would have surpassed it.

That said, a major city was destined to grow up in the Chicago area, sitting, as it does, at the best portage between the Mississippi River and Great Lakes systems, and with the straight-shot trade route linking it with St. Louis that is the Illinois River, there are many many alternate history (and dystopian future!) scenarios you can imagine where the Illinois River valley becomes the heartland of significant empires stretching across the interior Midwest.