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  #81  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2014, 6:04 AM
Dr Nevergold Dr Nevergold is offline
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Originally Posted by Buckeye Native 001 View Post
I don't know, maybe its because I have yet (knock on wood) to have a bad experience there, but if I have to connect through a big airport, Houston Intercontinental is my preferred choice.

The one time I had to connect through Atlanta wasn't too bad either, but I was expecting the worst with that based on other people's horror stories.
Atlanta's problem these days is that you feel like a package of sardines. I had the joy of flying Delta for the holidays two months back, during Thanksgiving both my connections were through Detroit, but Christmas both were via Atlanta.

Detroit has this new ultra-modern terminal setup that is open, tons of space, feels ultra-modern. The bulk of Atlanta's concourses are dated and beginning to show age. The 2 concourses I visited this past Christmas season had low ceilings and that stuffy 'old airport' feeling. Modern airports have very high ceilings and open space to reduce the claustrophobia.

Both the Atlanta concourses I connected through gave me that O'Hare Terminal 2 feeling... But at least the power outlets for charging your phone work in ATL.
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  #82  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2014, 2:26 PM
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Cleveland (United) will fly to 29 cities/airports** with 72 peak day flights.


Ok...the 5 cities served by EAS are done as of may 15th so it will now be 24 cities/airports with the 72 peak day flights. To bad...it would have been nice to have a few more cities...oh well. At least Frontier is going to be adding Seattle and Orlando. Also, Delta looks like it will be flying to Indianapolis and Raleigh/Durham starting in June. I wonder if Air Canada will add flights as well eventually. It would be nice if they would fly to more cities in Canada from Cleveland.
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  #83  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2014, 2:41 PM
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To put things into perspective:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clevela...d_destinations


All of those end dates are seriously depressing.
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  #84  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2014, 7:09 PM
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This will be the second time United has de-hubbed Cleveland. The first was around the mid-80's. That hub moved to Dulles which still uses the IAD's temporary Concourses C and D.
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  #85  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2014, 9:49 PM
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This will be the second time United has de-hubbed Cleveland. The first was around the mid-80's. That hub moved to Dulles which still uses the IAD's temporary Concourses C and D.
In time, CLE will be just fine if it looks around the nation and learns from others' examples. Earlier in this topic, we discussed all the airports that have had their hub statuses taken away, some are success stories, others aren't.

I doubt any leaders from Cleveland's airport come to this forum, but if they ever did I would take the example just down Interstate 71 of what to avoid. CVG has remained committed to Delta, they haven't allowed other carriers to come in and compete (at least, not to a degree that matters). So, they can still claim to be a 'focus city' for Delta, but with this status comes high costs per ticket without the hub-sized flight network. I was surprised to find they had dropped 5.1 million annual passengers in the most recent count. Delta obviously doesn't care about CVG and is more interested in beefing up their hub in Atlanta and Detroit, so CVG should stop committing to the airline. Delta has decimated passenger counts, thus revenue for the airport. CVG has nothing to gain working with Delta anymore, giving it special gate privileges and less competition. CLE likewise shouldn't feel an obligation to United.

Nashville and Pittsburgh are better examples to follow. Both of these airports have allowed competition and never stray from talks to allow gates to be rented to new airlines. Nashville's Concourse D (the commuter concourse) has been closed for many years now, Pittsburgh's land-side commuter terminal has been closed and demolished as well. Nashville and Pittsburgh both have amazingly similar stories: they built their new terminals respectively for American and US Air, Nashville's new terminal opened in 1987, Pittsburgh in 1992. The commuter concourses in each new terminal were only utilized for about 10 years, Nashville being de-hubbed in the late 90's, PGH being de-hubbed in the mid 00's.

BNA has recovered 100% and is now at the same 10 million passengers a year that the old American hub operated with in the 1980's and 90's thanks to Southwest designating BNA a focus city. PIT operates at a respectable 7.4 million passengers/year, which is not a great deal of traffic for the size of the terminal, but its better than CVG's situation.

BNA and PIT now have service that is cheaper than when they were hubs, and because airlines like Frontier, Southwest, and JetBlue have taken presence in these airports, customers aren't stuck on cramped commuter jets that don't have the comfort of the larger aircraft (which dominates Delta/American/United's operations). I think a majority of flights in and out of BNA particularly are mainline full sized jet aircraft, which is hard to come by in America's airports today courtesy of the United-Delta-American oligopoly.

CLE won't be able to rely on Southwest for becoming a focus city, they have plenty already, but CLE's success will be welcoming all who want to apply for a gate. Competition works, it'll bring prices down. This will drive up O&D traffic, and while CLE will never have as many non-stop flights again, over time additional non-stop service will occur when demand goes up for the cheaper operations that competition brings. CLE will benefit since the airport will become an operation designed for the residents of metropolitan Cleveland, not geared for passengers just connecting through from other cities.

Unfortunately, Cleveland might as well shut down their nice, new commuter concourse D that is less than 20 years old. The commuter jets that feed a hub won't be required anymore, just like BNA and PIT got rid of their commuter concourses. There won't be enough passenger revenue to maintain it.

Last edited by Dr Nevergold; Feb 21, 2014 at 10:14 PM.
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  #86  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2014, 11:07 PM
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^All very good points.

In CVG's situation though, there is another factor at play here - P&G's contract with Delta. It is P&G that wants and feeds the focus city operation DL has there, and it is they that make it profitable. It is also the reason DL maintains it's daily nonstop to Paris.

The Cincinnati Airport powers that be will not go against the wishes of Cincinnati's largest and most powerful corporation, so I really don't see any dramatic changes in store there. If there was money to made and the demand is there, other carriers would be knocking on the door. The Airport Authority can not block new entrants.
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  #87  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2014, 11:49 PM
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You all are also forgetting one thing...Clevelanders are not as forgiving as other people.

I mean just look at Lebron James and Art Model for example. Both were never forgiven for their betrayals. Well at least not by most Clevelanders...
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  #88  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2014, 6:01 AM
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Originally Posted by atlantaguy View Post
^All very good points.

In CVG's situation though, there is another factor at play here - P&G's contract with Delta. It is P&G that wants and feeds the focus city operation DL has there, and it is they that make it profitable. It is also the reason DL maintains it's daily nonstop to Paris.

The Cincinnati Airport powers that be will not go against the wishes of Cincinnati's largest and most powerful corporation, so I really don't see any dramatic changes in store there. If there was money to made and the demand is there, other carriers would be knocking on the door. The Airport Authority can not block new entrants.
I am not an airline specialist, but as an enthusiast of travel I think I've picked up on a few trends as I fly and observe the industry. I honestly don't have the background to comment on P&G's investment into CVG, or the Paris flight. A quick google search advises its GE that has some type of parts contract to keep the Paris flight alive since they have major operations in Cincinnati and need parts to/from France. But that's just a google search... I have no information to add. What I can say is that since CVG is in Kentucky on the very southern edge of the metro area, and most people live in the northern side of the metro that isn't far from Dayton, the Dayton airport has nothing to lose from CVG's high price, low non-stop frequency structure. If its 50 miles to DAY and its 25 miles to CVG, yet you save $100+ on a ticket at DAY, why choose CVG? Going forward, I could see DAY increase its passenger counts if Southwest offers lower prices there.

Competition is the key factor that always keeps prices in check. If there is less competition, flights will go up. Another fact that is just undeniable is that hub airports do not serve their local communities other than revenue generation or job creation. This is important, no doubt about it, but when your airport has a major hub operation it can stick locals with high prices for no reason other than they have the market cornered and don't compete.

Since you're in Atlanta, the hub network for non-stop flights is impressive as ATL is the busiest passenger airport in the world, but I'm sure you probably have to pay more to fly to numerous destinations than if you were to buy a ticket at a smaller airport.

Atlanta would be better served by opening a second airport at this time to compete. ATL is going nowhere, its a rock solid mega-hub that really doesn't need growth anymore. Atlanta needs a second airport to give people a chance at some competition. Dallas has LUV (which is getting a boost from the pending end of the Wright amendment), Chicago has MDW, Houston has IAH and Hobby is still going strong. San Francisco has 3 major airports, two of which are connected via rapid transit. Even Cincinnati-Dayton has two commercial airports as we mentioned. Why Atlanta hasn't built an alternate airport at this time is beyond comprehension, most other top cities for the most part has a second airport. Even if the second airport in a major metro area only has 2-3 million passengers a year, that can be incredibly successful at providing alternatives. You don't have to have immense traffic to be a success so long as the airport has a purpose. The only real failure of an alternate airport in recent memory is the Mid America Airport in St Louis metro, which is a rare occurrence. It was built as TWA was being merged into American and ended up being built in a market with no demand.

On a much smaller scale, the new Niagara Falls International airport terminal just opened here in Buffalo-Niagara in 2009. The airport might get 200,000 passengers a year, its a tiny operation, but having Spirit and Allegiant there lowers prices at BUF, where JetBlue and Southwest already have incredibly lowered prices. On occasion it is not uncommon to find round trip air fare to Ft Lauderdale (a vacation location for Spirit) for $150 from BUF. Flying to FLL with a real airline from BUF for $150 when they go on sale? Competition rocks. Having competition from low cost carriers JetBlue and Southwest have to compete with bottom-of-the-rung Spirit airlines is interesting. LOL

At the end of the day, competition is what this industry needs to keep it healthy. This is true no matter your location.

Last edited by Dr Nevergold; Feb 22, 2014 at 6:31 AM.
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  #89  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2014, 8:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr Nevergold View Post
I am not an airline specialist, but as an enthusiast of travel I think I've picked up on a few trends as I fly and observe the industry. I honestly don't have the background to comment on P&G's investment into CVG, or the Paris flight. A quick google search advises its GE that has some type of parts contract to keep the Paris flight alive since they have major operations in Cincinnati and need parts to/from France. But that's just a google search... I have no information to add.
P&G hasn't invested anything at CVG, but they do have a contract with Delta. Just like GE, Macy's, Kroger and several other big companies there do. I know this due to my job. They all support the Delta focus city at CVG.

Quote:
What I can say is that since CVG is in Kentucky on the very southern edge of the metro area, and most people live in the northern side of the metro that isn't far from Dayton, the Dayton airport has nothing to lose from CVG's high price, low non-stop frequency structure. If its 50 miles to DAY and its 25 miles to CVG, yet you save $100+ on a ticket at DAY, why choose CVG? Going forward, I could see DAY increase its passenger counts if Southwest offers lower prices there.
Absolutely, and this has already been going on for years - for leisure travelers. Business travelers overwhelmingly prefer CVG. It is much closer to Downtown, and offers nonstops to cities Dayton probably never will.


Quote:
Competition is the key factor that always keeps prices in check. If there is less competition, flights will go up. Another fact that is just undeniable is that hub airports do not serve their local communities other than revenue generation or job creation. This is important, no doubt about it, but when your airport has a major hub operation it can stick locals with high prices for no reason other than they have the market cornered and don't compete.

Since you're in Atlanta, the hub network for non-stop flights is impressive as ATL is the busiest passenger airport in the world, but I'm sure you probably have to pay more to fly to numerous destinations than if you were to buy a ticket at a smaller airport.
Not at all. Most of my travel is paid for by my company, but to the places I fly on my own dime I pay reasonable fares. AirTran/Southwest compete on the most popular routes from ATL, and it keeps fares in check. I stick with Delta for several reasons - I despise the cattle call SW boarding process. I want a reserved seat, and I don't mind paying for Economy Plus since I'm tall. Southwest doesn't offer that. Another thing I love about Delta is that I am very rarely on a plane smaller than a 757 from here, and regularly have widebody options. That is also very important to me. I also happen to like Delta, and have never had a bad experience with them, ever.

Quote:
Atlanta would be better served by opening a second airport at this time to compete. ATL is going nowhere, its a rock solid mega-hub that really doesn't need growth anymore. Atlanta needs a second airport to give people a chance at some competition. Dallas has LUV (which is getting a boost from the pending end of the Wright amendment), Chicago has MDW, Houston has IAH and Hobby is still going strong. San Francisco has 3 major airports, two of which are connected via rapid transit. Even Cincinnati-Dayton has two commercial airports as we mentioned. Why Atlanta hasn't built an alternate airport at this time is beyond comprehension, most other top cities for the most part has a second airport. Even if the second airport in a major metro area only has 2-3 million passengers a year, that can be incredibly successful at providing alternatives. You don't have to have immense traffic to be a success so long as the airport has a purpose. The only real failure of an alternate airport in recent memory is the Mid America Airport in St Louis metro, which is a rare occurrence. It was built as TWA was being merged into American and ended up being built in a market with no demand.

On a much smaller scale, the new Niagara Falls International airport terminal just opened here in Buffalo-Niagara in 2009. The airport might get 200,000 passengers a year, its a tiny operation, but having Spirit and Allegiant there lowers prices at BUF, where JetBlue and Southwest already have incredibly lowered prices. On occasion it is not uncommon to find round trip air fare to Ft Lauderdale (a vacation location for Spirit) for $150 from BUF. Flying to FLL with a real airline from BUF for $150 when they go on sale? Competition rocks. Having competition from low cost carriers JetBlue and Southwest have to compete with bottom-of-the-rung Spirit airlines is interesting. LOL

At the end of the day, competition is what this industry needs to keep it healthy. This is true no matter your location.
Regarding a second Airport for ATL, this has been going on for years. NIMBY's have shot down every single proposal for decades, at multiple Airports around the Metro. Now Paulding County in the far NW of Metro Atlanta is expanding and has an agreement with Allegiant to start service there. The expansion has been put on hold due to multiple lawsuits by - NIMBY's!
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  #90  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2014, 2:27 AM
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^I've had both less than optimal and decent experiences with all airlines, and the only less than optimal experience I've had with SWA is that I didn't get a window seat once, and sometimes their campy behavior gets annoying when you're tired and just want to rest. With the traditional carriers there have been serious negative experiences along side the positive ones, which I will outline below. I don't know that there is a single airline that is devoid of bad service at all.

I had a bad experience with Delta flying back this past holiday season. I booked a 6am flight, thought it would be no big deal, but as I was visiting I realized I really, REALLY didn't want to get up at 4am so that I could depart at 6. I called Delta's call center, waited the obligatory 5+ minutes, got a scripted agent who said "You can't change your ticket, you will have to buy a new ticket" when I wasn't trying to get it changed for free, I explicitly asked "how much does it cost for the fee?".

I already know Delta's policy, I had looked it up before calling and see that the standard cost is a ridiculous $200:

http://www.delta.com/content/www/en_...t-changes.html

The agent firmly restated, like a script, that no changes could be performed at all. The excuse they used was that I didn't book on Delta.com, which I didn't, and booked through a major travel site. I only hung up with the agent since I found a new ticket online for far less than $200 one way to get back home. It was worth the extra 12 hours... I understand when you buy a bottom of the rung ticket you'll get penalized for it, but for an agent to not even understand their policy and say "you can't change at all, under any circumstance" when the customer is actually willing to pay the stated fee? That's pretty poor service. If they aren't willing to change a ticket just because you book via Travelocity, Expedia, or Priceline then that's a double suckage of customer service. This experience is worthy of Spirit, not a traditional mega airliner like Delta.

Delta has average service at best, because of examples like these. At least with Southwest you can always change your flight for just the difference in the cost of fare. Not $200+fare difference or "NO" as the answer. Cattle call or not, Delta has hardly the best at customer service. I have a Southwest flight coming up in March, and there is a trick with SWA: confirm your flight precisely 24 hours ahead of schedule. It puts you closer to the front of the line to board, and you can just pick your window or aisle seat accordingly. It almost never fails for me. I always seem to get a window seat with SWA, which is what I prefer. Its only failed once before when I didn't confirm as early as I should have for the flight.

An airline I'd love to get more experience with is JetBlue. Everyone I know raves about them.

Last edited by Dr Nevergold; Feb 24, 2014 at 2:43 AM.
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  #91  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2014, 7:09 AM
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Sorry to inform you of this Brandon, but Delta was correct. You didn't purchase the ticket from them, you bought it through a third party. The website you bought your ticket from had procession of and control of you reservation, not Delta. It would have been exactly the same situation with American, jetBlue, United or US Airways.

And I have also heard great things about jetBlue, and lately Virgin America. I have a couple of clients in San Francisco & New York that are extremely loyal to Virgin, and refuse to fly transcon with anyone else.
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  #92  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2014, 1:57 AM
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Originally Posted by atlantaguy View Post
Sorry to inform you of this Brandon, but Delta was correct. You didn't purchase the ticket from them, you bought it through a third party. The website you bought your ticket from had procession of and control of you reservation, not Delta. It would have been exactly the same situation with American, jetBlue, United or US Airways.

And I have also heard great things about jetBlue, and lately Virgin America. I have a couple of clients in San Francisco & New York that are extremely loyal to Virgin, and refuse to fly transcon with anyone else.
Its still bad customer service, there should be a way for them to change a ticket for a fee. $200 is a steep price to pay plus fare difference, they aren't losing any money.

Hence my comment about the entire industry having poor quality of service. The entire industry is in need of a makeover, and if this is why SWA doesn't play well with 3rd party sites, they should continue to direct sell tickets. I'm not in the industry, I don't buy into the rules games. If a 3rd party company wants to sell a ticket, fine, but the parent airline should be able to change a ticket. If they can't, its a sign the industry needs some customer service regulation IMO. In today's age of a click of a button or a swipe of a smartphone, databases can be updated the world round in a matter of seconds. If it takes a law to change this, so be it, the industry is not changing on its own.

Just FYI, 3 months before my travel I booked tickets, the original flight plan got cancelled on one leg of the trip. I called Delta directly and I advised I wasn't happy with the automatic reassignment choice they booked me on, and they happily obliged to put me on 3rd flight plan for free. It didn't matter that I bought the ticket on a travel site... The rules really don't mean much, they're just a smoke screen to protect bad customer service. The rules are what the airline make them to be, its a choice on their part. I'm not in the airline industry, but I'm well aware of the same techniques used in other industries. Its all bad service, regardless.

Last edited by Dr Nevergold; Feb 25, 2014 at 2:10 AM.
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  #93  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2014, 3:39 AM
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Its still bad customer service, there should be a way for them to change a ticket for a fee. $200 is a steep price to pay plus fare difference, they aren't losing any money.
I agree. The major carriers look at it as you purchasing an appliance at Target, but wanting to return it directly to the manufacturer instead of the store. That's the collective mindset were dealing with. You should see what they make we (as Travel Agents) deal with just to change/exchange a ticket.

Quote:
Hence my comment about the entire industry having poor quality of service. The entire industry is in need of a makeover, and if this is why SWA doesn't play well with 3rd party sites, they should continue to direct sell tickets. I'm not in the industry, I don't buy into the rules games. If a 3rd party company wants to sell a ticket, fine, but the parent airline should be able to change a ticket. If they can't, its a sign the industry needs some customer service regulation IMO. In today's age of a click of a button or a swipe of a smartphone, databases can be updated the world round in a matter of seconds. If it takes a law to change this, so be it, the industry is not changing on its own.
Oh, trust me - I agree, again. The airlines dictate the rules of this game, but I don't see it changing without Congress stepping in. That's why I'm not holding my breath. These change fees started out around $25.00 when they were first instituted. Now all of the 'Big 3' charge $200.00 domestically, much higher for international flights. jetBlue just went up to $150.00, Alaska's vary by status and fare purchased.

Change fees & baggage fees have become a massive profit center for the majors. I admit to being torn on this, though. The airlines collectively lost billions and billions of $$$ over the years. We have lost so many carriers, and most remaining have been in and out of bankruptcy. I'm glad they are profitable again, but at what cost?

One interesting thing is coming re: Southwest also. For the first time in their history, by the end of the year they are switching the reservation system from in-house to a GDS (Global Distribution System) as part of the AirTran merger and offering international flights. This will allow the entire world access, from Travel Agents to 3rd party sites. Should be very interesting to see how this works.

Quote:
Just FYI, 3 months before my travel I booked tickets, the original flight plan got cancelled on one leg of the trip. I called Delta directly and I advised I wasn't happy with the automatic reassignment choice they booked me on, and they happily obliged to put me on 3rd flight plan for free. It didn't matter that I bought the ticket on a travel site...
And here's why they were so accommodating - THEY did something to your reservation. That is an entirely different matter, and yes - all of the majors would/should graciously adjust your flights for free to meet your needs.

Quote:
The rules really don't mean much, they're just a smoke screen to protect bad customer service. The rules are what the airline make them to be, its a choice on their part. I'm not in the airline industry, but I'm well aware of the same techniques used in other industries. Its all bad service, regardless.


Edit: This is the bottom line. With very few exceptions, this industry has been taken over by bean counters due to Wall Street/shareholder demand, vs. people that have a clue. The ones that do are almost all gone...

Last edited by atlantaguy; Feb 25, 2014 at 5:11 AM.
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  #94  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2014, 7:05 PM
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None of us can count on this irresponsible, do nothing congress. They are about as competent as a rat dropping crap all over your floor.
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  #95  
Old Posted Mar 8, 2014, 2:17 PM
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The entry in Wikipedia is a total mess. I cleaned it up some and this is the post hub look. A number of entries are confusing because the Cleveland page says they are ending but the individual pages for some say they aren't (which ones are wrong...the individual pages or the Cleveland page?). Of course this could change and some entries may not be entirely correct but here goes:

::Air Canada Express operated by Jazz Air::
Toronto–Pearson

::American Airlines::
Dallas/Fort Worth

::American Eagle::
Chicago–O'Hare, Miami, New York–JFK

::Apple Vacations operated by Frontier Airlines::
Seasonal: Cancun, Punta Cana

:: Delta Air Lines::
Atlanta

:: Delta Connection operated by Endeavor Air::
Detroit, Indianapolis, Minneapolis/St. Paul, New York–JFK

:: Delta Connection operated by ExpressJet::
Atlanta, Hartford/Springfield, New York–LaGuardia, Raleigh/Durham

:: Delta Connection operated by SkyWest Airlines::
Minneapolis/St. Paul

::Frontier Airlines::
Denver, Orlando, Trenton (NJ)
Seasonal: Seattle/Tacoma

::Southwest Airlines::
Baltimore, Chicago–Midway, Nashville
Seasonal: Fort Myers, Las Vegas, Orlando

::United Airlines::
Cancun, Chicago–O'Hare, Denver, Fort Lauderdale, Fort Myers, Houston–Intercontinental, Las Vegas, Los Angeles, New York–LaGuardia, Newark, Orlando, San Francisco, San Juan, Tampa

::United Express operated by Chautauqua Airlines::
Boston, Chicago–O'Hare, New York–LaGuardia, Washington–National

::United Express operated by CommutAir::
Albany (NY), Baltimore, Washington–Dulles

::United Express operated by ExpressJet::
Baltimore, Boston, Chicago–O'Hare, Dallas/Fort Worth, Denver, Houston–Intercontinental, Milwaukee, New York–LaGuardia, Newark, St. Louis, Washington–Dulles, Washington–National
Seasonal: Charleston (SC), Fort Myers, Nassau, Tampa

::United Express operated by Republic Airlines::
Washington–Dulles

::United Express operated by Shuttle America::
Baltimore, Boston, Chicago–O'Hare, Denver, Fort Myers, Houston–Intercontinental, New York–LaGuardia, Newark, Washington–Dulles, Washington–National

::United Express operated by SkyWest Airlines::
Boston, Chicago–O'Hare, Dallas/Fort Worth, Denver, Fort Myers, Houston–Intercontinental, Milwaukee, Tampa, Washington–Dulles, Washington–National
Seasonal: Charleston (SC)

::United Express operated by Trans States Airlines::
Boston, Chicago–O'Hare, St. Louis, Washington–Dulles

::US Airways::
Charlotte

::US Airways Express operated by Air Wisconsin::
Philadelphia

::US Airways Express operated by Mesa Airlines::
Charlotte, Philadelphia

::US Airways Express operated by PSA Airlines::
Charlotte

::US Airways Express operated by Republic Airlines::
Philadelphia
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  #96  
Old Posted Mar 8, 2014, 7:03 PM
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Edit: This is the bottom line. With very few exceptions, this industry has been taken over by bean counters due to Wall Street/shareholder demand, vs. people that have a clue. The ones that do are almost all gone...
You more than I know how unique the passenger airline business is in the US.

A) The planes, crew, (much of the)repair operations, behind the counter sales, and much of the tarmac staff is paid for by the airlines. New equipment costs are paid by the airlines.

Financing for new aircraft generally is debt created via Wall Street crafted bond issues, and, then paid back by the airlines.

B) The airports, most often, are owned by municipal entities, who run a budget that is serviced via landing fees, concession fees, and, short and long term parking fees. In the case of airports such as in Denver, the municipal authority owns sufficient surrounding land to receive addition income via rentals and/or out right land purchase.

Financing major improvements (as well as the original cost) are done through Wall Street crafted bond issues, whose ultimate payoff responsibility ends up with the municipal tax payer if payments cannot be met. This also applies to covering the spread between operating budget and income received via the airport- tax payers that back the municipal entity are responsible for paying off budget deficits.

*******************

Airlines have had a history of volatility since the first oil crunch in the early 1970s. As fuel costs tend to the largest operating expense, profits and loses tend to follow the price of aviation fuel.

Consequently, since then, profits and losses have followed irregular cycles where debt is accumulated during high fuel cost times, and, profit is made when the price falls.

On top of that lies bankruptcy options, where as debt accumulates, whether through purchasing aircraft, and/or fuel cost increases, existing debt can be renegotiated or even written off. In addition, as the increased effects of debt service trap airline companies, the value of the stock drops.

When a third party purchases a given airline, the buyer, particularly if the buyer is another airline, has the opportunity to renegotiate gate fees and other payments with airports. This cost reduction then tends to go to reducing the debts incurred in the purchase price.

There is a system en place, that works very well. The CEOs in the industry through their lobbyists at the Federal level have been able to effectively separate "extra services" from ticket price, enabling bean counters to extract maximum profit.

IMO the major problem is that Wall Street has been able to create a short term profit centric culture while the passenger airline business is a capital intensive industry that is extraordinarily sensitive to fuel price swings*. What all this leaves us, is an industry which alternates between debt accumulation and reducing debt service costs while generating a profit. If tax laws benefit capital accumulation (within the US) and monies could be saved for a "rainy day" the airline (and almost all other) industry would be radically improved.

*I understand that for every $1 increase in the price of crude oil, fuel expense increases $1,000,000,000 for the airline industry.
__________________
Good read on relationship between increasing number of freeway lanes and traffic

http://www.vtpi.org/gentraf.pdf

Last edited by Wizened Variations; Mar 8, 2014 at 7:56 PM.
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