Largest Downtowns/ Business Districts in the US

[SLO]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Fort Worth and Newark are absolutely edge cities. It is true that they have different historical narratives than the Tysons Corners and Costa Mesas of the world, but they currently function alike.

If Fort Worth or Newark aren't edge cities, then what about Stanford, White Plains, New Rochelle and New Brunswick for NYC, or Arlington, Alexandria and Bethesda for DC? All are older cities that were established independent of the core city, yet developed into secondary urban business and transit hubs. Their current role is 100% dependent on the vitality of the center city.

Should these cities not "count" because they happen to be located in a part of the country where many (most?) suburbs were established as independent cities?

I know this has been responded to, but the Fort Worth situation is very unique, perhaps more so than St Paul. FW has its own edge cities, and has as little to do with Dallas as possible. I dont say that to slight Dallas, but to portray the situation and sentiments of the residents of the city. FW refuses to take a back seat, and competes w/Dallas in every way. It is entirely possible that in the next 20 to 30 years Fort Worth passes Dallas in population. Then what, is Dallas an edge city?
And what of the San Francisco bay area? SF, Oakland, San Jose? San Jose is now the largest city of the three.....

[krudmonk]

Originally Posted by SLO

And what of the San Francisco bay area? SF, Oakland, San Jose? San Jose is now the largest city of the three.....

Edge cities around here are Santa Rosa, Vacaville, Stockton, Salinas and cities along those lines. I don't think there absolutely must be only one core city and the rest defining the boundaries.

[relnahe]

It seems from what I'm reading here in these last posts is FT W & Dallas are in more of a DC/Baltimore relationship then a Minneapolis/ST P one.

[antinimby]

Originally Posted by Trae

Fort Worth is not close to being an edge city. I don't know how you see that. Fort Worth was its own bustling town, while Dallas thirty miles away was the same. They both grew together. It isn't like Newark which grew because of NYC. Fort Worth has its own zoo, arts, etc. It is a little more than half the size of Dallas also.

Agreed. Two separate places 30 miles apart cannot be considered interrelated. That's too vast of a distance.

[Minato Ku]

Fort Worth is not an edge city because Dallas and Fort Worth are two cities wich merged into a sole one.
It is the same for Bay area with San Francisco Oakland and San Jose, or in Europe with Ramdstam metro area formed by Amsterdam, Rotterdam and the Haye.

In N.Y metro area, Newark (even if it was an independent city before) was absorbed by N.Y, it is Newark and N.Y wich merged into one metropolitan area. We vcan say that Newark is an edge city.
It is like Saint Denis in France, wich was before an pretty important city and was absorbed by Paris, it could become a district of this city in 2008.

[Marv95]

How can a city be an edge city of NYC when:
It has a pop of nearly 300,000
Basically has its own transit network(NJ Transit's headquarters are located in downtown)
It's 10 miles away in a different state
3rd oldest city in the nation, founded in 1666
Grew inspite of NYC and was one of the largest industrial centers in the nation not too long ago
Has its own entertainment/leisure centers(Prudential Center, minor-league baseball stadium, NJ Performing Arts Center, own museum(s)), own international airport(and seaport)?

If anything, White Plains, Yonkers and maybe JC(which some people confuse for NYC whenever tourists are at the waterfront or Liberty State Park) are edge cities.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Marv95

How can a city be an edge city of NYC when:
It has a pop of nearly 300,000
Basically has its own transit network(NJ Transit's headquarters are located in downtown)
It's 10 miles away in a different state
3rd oldest city in the nation, founded in 1666
Grew inspite of NYC and was one of the largest industrial centers in the nation not too long ago
Has its own entertainment/leisure centers(Prudential Center, minor-league baseball stadium, NJ Performing Arts Center, own museum(s)), own international airport(and seaport)?

If anything, White Plains, Yonkers and maybe JC(which some people confuse for NYC whenever tourists are at the waterfront or Liberty State Park) are edge cities.

I'm not sure why any of those points (some of which are wrong) mean it can't qualify as an Edge City.

NJ Transit is centered around Manhattan, not Newark. Manhattan is easily the biggest rail and bus destination in the NJ Transit network. Newark isn't even #2, it's the #3 destination after Manhattan. Penn Station Manhattan gets almost 10 times the Newark Penn Station numbers (same goes for the bus), and that's not counting the fact that half the people going to Newark are just transferring to the PATH trains to Manhattan.

Newark is seven miles from Midtown Manhattan. If anything, it isn't an Edge City but more of a Sixth Borough.

It didn't grow in spite of NYC, it grew because of NYC. Newark grew as a huge transportation and shipping center, based on it's location just to the west of the nation's (historically) largest seaport. It's vitality today is tied to it's share of what is now the nation's second largest seaport and Newark Airport, which are obviously attributable to NYC.

The seaport is only partially in Newark (it's also in NYC, Elizabeth and Bayonne) and has nothing to do with the city of Newark itself. The airport also has nothing to do with Newark. It's older than LGA or JFK and closer to Manhattan than JFK and was historically NYC's #1 airport.

It certainly isn't the third oldest city. Off the top of my head, NYC, Boston, Providence, New Haven and many others are older.

Newark no longer has 300,000 residents. Not sure why this would disqualify it as an edge city. Jersey City will be larger than Newark in a few years, yet you think that it qualifies as an edge city.

Not sure what minor league baseball teams and a museum have to do with edge city status. Edge Cities don't have sports or other diversions? Suburbs can't have sports? Better not tell half the sports franchises in the U.S. The Dallas Cowboys aren't really in Dallas? The Stade de France isn't in Paris? I think most would differ.

Also not sure why the fact it's in another state matters. There are more people living in the suburban NJ portion of the NY MSA than the suburban NY and CT portions combined. If anything, suburban NY and CT matter less, as they are further from Manhattan and have smaller populations. According to you, MD and VA aren't part of metro DC because they are in different states? Arlington and Tysons Corner aren't Edge Cities of DC because they are not officially in the District? The Northeast has small states so these situations are typical.

Originally Posted by antinimby

Agreed. Two separate places 30 miles apart cannot be considered interrelated. That's too vast of a distance.

I dunno. They can be pretty interrelated if they are well connected by highways and suburban development fills up most points in between. I don't think it makes the smaller city a suburb though.

Breaking this down bit by bit, I will address why so many of these points are flawed, and I can use the example of one suburb alone to explain how, for some of your examples, this isn't only a Newark scenario.

Originally Posted by Marv95

How can a city be an edge city of NYC when:
It has a pop of nearly 300,000

Suburbs that are completely dependent on the growth of a central city can grow quite large. Take for example, Mississauga, an edge city and very large suburb of Toronto. Note the population and skyline. Its "suburban downtown" was farmland merely a couple of decades ago and was built around a shopping mall.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mississauga,_Ontario

Originally Posted by Marv95

Basically has its own transit network(NJ Transit's headquarters are located in downtown)
It's 10 miles away in a different state

Check the link for Mississauga. You will also see that it has its very own Mississauga transit, but is also connected to the commuter rail network that serves Toronto. Kind of similar to Newark in this regard, but rail replaces subways. Although in the same province, parts of Mississauga can be about 25-30 miles from downtown Toronto. There are plenty of examples of multi-state/province metros across this continent and around the world. East St. Louis is in Illinois. The Gatineau area, part of Ottawa's metro, is in Quebec while Ottawa itself is in Ontario. Parts of suburban Cincinnati are in Northern Kentucky, etc etc.

Originally Posted by Marv95

3rd oldest city in the nation, founded in 1666
Grew inspite of NYC and was one of the largest industrial centers in the nation not too long ago

Perhaps your only valid point. And it did achieve some critical mass before being absorbed by the NY region. This is why I consider it to be it's own city, heavily integrated with the NYC region, not just a suburban edge city.

Originally Posted by Marv95

Has its own entertainment/leisure centers(Prudential Center, minor-league baseball stadium, NJ Performing Arts Center, own museum(s)), own international airport(and seaport)?

Ummm, can't most of these things be found in the suburbs? (especially airports)

[Cirrus]

San Jose is now the largest city of the three.....

Only because of meaningless lines on maps. In the real world, San Francisco is still the center of the Bay Area.

Two separate places 30 miles apart cannot be considered interrelated. That's too vast of a distance.

Nonsense. Los Angeles and San Bernardino are 60 miles apart, but if you think the latter would exist in anything resembling its current form without the former then I've got a bridge to sell you.

Dallas and Fort Worth may well be separate. I'm not famliar enough with the region to know. But there's way more to the equation than distance alone.

Fort Worth is not an edge city because Dallas and Fort Worth are two cities wich merged into a sole one.

Small towns and medium-sized cities are merged into larger ones all the time. Alexandria, VA is older than Washington, DC and was itself a major city decades before anyone ever dreamed of the District of Columbia, and yet TODAY Alexandria functions as an uptown-variety Edge City.

A history of independence is meaningless in the context of CURRENT regional interdependence.

How can a city be an edge city of NYC when:
It has a pop of nearly 300,000…

See above regarding historical independence versus contemporary interdependence.

If anything, White Plains, Yonkers and maybe JC(which some people confuse for NYC whenever tourists are at the waterfront or Liberty State Park) are edge cities.

Who said they’re not?

[L41A]

Originally Posted by pj3000

No... all of Manhattan is basically a "downtown" when one compares it with any other American city. The entire island is a completely urban mix of commercial, residential, and industrial development with unrivaled density. This type of urban density is only found in other US cities' "CBDs", "downtowns", or whatever else you want to call urban clusters. True, cities like Atlanta and Houston may have multiple "downtowns". But there are large breaks of suburban development between them. Obviously, this is not the case in Manhattan... any "breaks" in the Manhattan skyline are areas that are far more urban (and more like a true downtown) than any existing business district area of Atlanta, Houston, LA, etc. If you still think that other cities' business districts should be combined if Manhattan is considered as a whole for a more accurate comparison, then I guess we should also combine downtown Brooklyn (actually much of Brooklyn), portions of Queens, the Bronx, and maybe even Jersey City as well. Bottom line is, there is no comparison.



Totally false. You're just making stuff up. Newark was founded in 1666, completely independent of New York. Five miles was a hell of a long way away back in those days, and was still a large distance throughout the 1800s, when Newark rapidly developed as an independent industrial and shipping center.

I agree with the general context of what you are saying.

However, in defense of the previous comments concerning Atlanta, Alleystreet only mentioned three areas (Downtown, Midtown and Buckhead) which are all in the city of Atlanta. There are no large breaks of suburban development between Downtown Atlanta and Midtown Atlanta as you imply. Due to the large homes and mansions in the residential section of Buckhead, I see your point between Buckhead and the Downtown/Midtown areas.

However, Alleystreet didn’t named two other prominent business districts in metro Atlanta namely Perimeter Center and Cumberland which are truly surrounded by suburban environments. I know we all love our own city. But some of us do get a little picky in trying to be greater, bigger, more dense, etc than the next place. NYC is great. I absolutely love it and it is amazing place. It does ignite your senses (good and bad) like no other place. It is like the church steeple to all American cities imo. But to say, that another place does not compare when in fact that’s what you are doing is disingenuous if not also arrogant.

[travelinmiles]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

Only because of meaningless lines on maps. In the real world, San Francisco is still the center of the Bay Area.




Dallas and Fort Worth may well be separate. I'm not famliar enough with the region to know. But there's way more to the equation than distance alone.

Small towns and medium-sized cities are merged into larger ones all the time. Alexandria, VA is older than Washington, DC and was itself a major city decades before anyone ever dreamed of the District of Columbia, and yet TODAY Alexandria functions as an uptown-variety Edge City.

A history of independence is meaningless in the context of CURRENT regional interdependence.

Historically, Fort Worth and Dallas were much closer in population, some of this is why there is a split in Interstate 35. FW was already a major city. It wasn't until the 60s and 70s that Dallas boomed and Fort Worth had a harder time adjusting to a service economy. There was even a point in time when the two had separate media markets. The two have grown together however, they both have their own suburbs, transit systems, even looking at a highway map they both have separate wheel and spokes networks connected by east-west highways.

[krudmonk]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

Only because of meaningless lines on maps. In the real world, San Francisco is still the center of the Bay Area.

The real world, huh? I don't think the argument was made that SJ (or Oakland) was the center of the region, just distinguishing between it and an edge city. I hope that quells your monstrous rage.

[Jersey Mentality]

Originally Posted by Crawford

I'm not sure why any of those points (some of which are wrong) mean it can't qualify as an Edge City.

NJ Transit is centered around Manhattan, not Newark. Manhattan is easily the biggest rail and bus destination in the NJ Transit network. Newark isn't even #2, it's the #3 destination after Manhattan. Penn Station Manhattan gets almost 10 times the Newark Penn Station numbers (same goes for the bus), and that's not counting the fact that half the people going to Newark are just transferring to the PATH trains to Manhattan.

Newark is seven miles from Midtown Manhattan. If anything, it isn't an Edge City but more of a Sixth Borough.

It didn't grow in spite of NYC, it grew because of NYC. Newark grew as a huge transportation and shipping center, based on it's location just to the west of the nation's (historically) largest seaport. It's vitality today is tied to it's share of what is now the nation's second largest seaport and Newark Airport, which are obviously attributable to NYC.

The seaport is only partially in Newark (it's also in NYC, Elizabeth and Bayonne) and has nothing to do with the city of Newark itself. The airport also has nothing to do with Newark. It's older than LGA or JFK and closer to Manhattan than JFK and was historically NYC's #1 airport.

It certainly isn't the third oldest city. Off the top of my head, NYC, Boston, Providence, New Haven and many others are older.

Newark no longer has 300,000 residents. Not sure why this would disqualify it as an edge city. Jersey City will be larger than Newark in a few years, yet you think that it qualifies as an edge city.

Not sure what minor league baseball teams and a museum have to do with edge city status. Edge Cities don't have sports or other diversions? Suburbs can't have sports? Better not tell half the sports franchises in the U.S. The Dallas Cowboys aren't really in Dallas? The Stade de France isn't in Paris? I think most would differ.

Also not sure why the fact it's in another state matters. There are more people living in the suburban NJ portion of the NY MSA than the suburban NY and CT portions combined. If anything, suburban NY and CT matter less, as they are further from Manhattan and have smaller populations. According to you, MD and VA aren't part of metro DC because they are in different states? Arlington and Tysons Corner aren't Edge Cities of DC because they are not officially in the District? The Northeast has small states so these situations are typical.

NJ Transit is not centered around Manhattan, that sounds ridiculous, NJ Transit shares a couple station in Manhattan thats about it. If anything its centered around New Jersey. It is not made for the people of Manhattan, it is made of the use of New Jersey residents. And beside from that Newark does have a separate subway system aside from NJ Transit and PATH.

Also Newark didn't not grow because of New York, it did grow in spite of it. If NYC was not there, then Newark would be the dominate city in that region, if not that nation. Also Newark's ports handle more cargo then those in NYC, we have the airport and the Turnpike here for easier access for transport. Newark was really a city on its own long ago before there was a PATH or a Holland or Lincoln Tunnel. From 1666 till the mid to late 1800s Newark was just a large city near New York, it has never been and may never be a bedroom community of New York City. Some of the towns around it have been turned into bedroom communities. But if anything its location near New York have hurt it. Companies locate to New York, dont you think Newark has a tough time attracting and retaining business that would otherwise re-locate to Manhattan or over look Newark all together? You cannot sit up there and say if NYC wasnt there then Newark would be less significant. It would still have an airport, and a seaport, it would have still been the center of New Jersey's intense industry, and the regional center of North Jersey.

[Segun]

^ man that that quote by Cirrus had so much anger, I could see steam erupting from it. Look at the venemous use of "in the real world" and the strategic comma seperating the two volatile attacks.

[totheskies]

Like other threads, the term "edge city" can be looked upon as quite vast, and (in my view) it's just dependent on the history of the town, and what other functions the city has. Form-wise, many people would mistake a place like San Jose to be an edge city because of its looks, and how spread out it is.

A place like Arlington is in my mind the definitive edge blob. It just sucks up the space between Dallas and Fort Worth and sprawls between each cities' suburbs. Yet due to city boundaries, it's population is over 300,000 people. But it doesn't have the economic or government importance of even a place like Little Rock (which has 100,000 fewer in its city population). Even Houston's largest suburb of Pasadena has at least the lion's share of the industrial workforce, and therefore warrants a necessity for someone to want to live there. Not meaning to just hate on Arlington exclusively, but it's not my kind of town.

[totheskies]

Originally Posted by travelinmiles

Historically, Fort Worth and Dallas were much closer in population, some of this is why there is a split in Interstate 35. FW was already a major city. It wasn't until the 60s and 70s that Dallas boomed and Fort Worth had a harder time adjusting to a service economy. There was even a point in time when the two had separate media markets. The two have grown together however, they both have their own suburbs, transit systems, even looking at a highway map they both have separate wheel and spokes networks connected by east-west highways.

Exactly. This is also why D/FW is owned equally by the two cities, but they also retain their own airports. It's unique though that Meacham still has the status of "International airport" but way more commercial flights are out of Dallas Love Field.

[Cirrus]

The real world, huh? I don't think the argument was made that SJ (or Oakland) was the center of the region, just distinguishing between it and an edge city. I hope that quells your monstrous rage.

Lines on a map and the population of surrounding sprawl are meaningless to the edge city discussion. In this context the City of San Jose should be thought of more like a county. Downtown San Jose is certainly an edge city, and it's likely other activity centers in San Jose qualify as well.

We can talk about that, or you can continue to take sarcastic jabs at me in response to your homer pride and failure to understand the concept. Your choice.

Historically, Fort Worth and Dallas were much closer in population, some of this is why there is a split in Interstate 35. FW was already a major city. It wasn't until the 60s and 70s that Dallas boomed and Fort Worth had a harder time adjusting to a service economy. There was even a point in time when the two had separate media markets. The two have grown together however, they both have their own suburbs, transit systems, even looking at a highway map they both have separate wheel and spokes networks connected by east-west highways.

None of that proves that Fort Worth doesn't function as an edge city to Dallas. Leesburg, VA has a historic downtown, its own transit system, its own circumferential highway, surrounding bedroom communities that you could call Leesburg suburbs, its own newspaper, yadda yadda yadda, yet there’s not a soul in Leesburg who would ever claim it would look like it does without Washington and the rest of Northern Virginia near by.

I don’t know how you tell the difference between a twin city and an edge city, but I don’t think any of the reasons you listed are valid.

Here’s another complication to add to the equation: Downtowns Los Angeles and (especially) Phoenix aren’t particularly distinguishable from regional edge cities in LA or Phoenix. Does that mean those downtowns qualify? What do you call it when there’s NOT a dominant primary district, and even the largest is simply one among many?

Yet another reason why I prefer the term Activity Center.

[totheskies]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

Lines on a map and the population of surrounding sprawl are meaningless to the edge city discussion. In this context the City of San Jose should be thought of more like a county. Downtown San Jose is certainly an edge city, and it's likely other activity centers in San Jose qualify as well.

We can talk about that, or you can continue to take sarcastic jabs at me in response to your homer pride and failure to understand the concept. Your choice.

None of that proves that Fort Worth doesn't function as an edge city to Dallas. Leesburg, VA has a historic downtown, its own transit system, its own circumferential highway, surrounding bedroom communities that you could call Leesburg suburbs, its own newspaper, yadda yadda yadda, yet there’s not a soul in Leesburg who would ever claim it would look like it does without Washington and the rest of Northern Virginia near by.

I don’t know how you tell the difference between a twin city and an edge city, but I don’t think any of the reasons you listed are valid.

Here’s another complication to add to the equation: Downtowns Los Angeles and (especially) Phoenix aren’t particularly distinguishable from regional edge cities in LA or Phoenix. Does that mean those downtowns qualify? What do you call it when there’s NOT a dominant primary district, and even the largest is simply one among many?

Yet another reason why I prefer the term Activity Center.

Have you been to both Dallas and Fort Worth???

[cabasse]

...well, i'm headed down to detroit's activity center. (ha ha)

i was actually replying with the same thing segun said above, but he said it for me.