Where Is The Rust Belt?

[hammersklavier]

Originally Posted by eschaton

I mean, most tourism in these small towns is drawn from nearby metropolitan areas - people looking for day trips or weekend trips relatively close to home.

Where do people in the three big Ohio cities vacation exactly?

That's a good question! I know that for all four of the Northeast's major metros (NYC, Boston, Philly, Baltimore/DC) there are seaside destinations and hillside destinations, some of which, like Atlantic City, Martha's Vineyard, and the Poconos are shared between different metros, and I would assume that such should exist for any major metropole where feasible. In other words, Sandusky works because it's the seaside destination for all of Ohio (and parts of eastern Indiana as well). So in theory Zanesville, which is in fact within the Columbus CSA, should be a natural tourism destination for Columbus, much as the Catskills are for New York. Perhaps eastern Kentucky is also a draw for people from Cincinnati? But with all three of Ohio's major cities near its edges, you'd've thunk that someplace within the Ohio hill country would've emerged as the Poconos or Lehigh Gorge of the region, wouldn't you?

[JManc]

Originally Posted by Crawford

New Yorkers ski in Vermont, mostly. The snow is slightly more powdery east of Lake Champlain, and the resorts are far more developed. Most of the overnight shuttles to ski resorts are headed to Vermont.

But Whiteface, in the Adirondacks, is an exception. Whiteface, in terms of skiing alone, is probably best in Eastern U.S.

I assume Bostonians are headed to Maine and New Hampshire, moreso than Vermont. Vermont resorts like Killington and Mt. Snow feel like Long Island North.

Gore Mountain in the ADK's is pretty popular as well but yeah, people from Upstate even head over to VT to ski. Killington is a madhouse this time of year.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by hammersklavier

The sad thing here is that the southeastern part of Ohio sits on a geological extension of the Allegheny Plateau and has some potential for tourism, especially older towns that sit in fairly narrow valleys like Zanesville. But AFAIK Ohio's tourism industry (as a whole) is more underdeveloped than Pennsylvania's (which is itself underdeveloped relative to e.g. New York's) and, despite having much of Ohio's natural beauty, its southeast is its least densely settled and least developed in terms of tourism assets and infrastructure. IOW there's a noticeable dearth of Jim Thorpes and Ohiopyles in the area and that hampers the development of a tourism industry.

Yeah, that area is the most scenic overall in Ohio in terms of terrain, and I think college towns like Marietta and Athens are very nice. The issue about its potential for larger-scale tourism based on its natural surroundings is that you can find much more scenic terrain, better outdoor recreation options in nearby WV, PA. You might get more Ohioans in the area visiting by developing tourism there, but you’re not going to get people In appreciable numbers from PA or WV or elsewhere nearby considering that there are simply just better options for those people in their own states nearby or in Virginia or NC, if that’s the type of tourism one is looking for. Ohio’s portion of the Appalachian foothills, while nice, is a rather poor substitute for what one can find in those other areas in the region. For a very surface level comparison, it’s like if I lived near North Carolina’s Outer Banks, why would I drive up to the Jersey Shore for vacation?

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by hammersklavier

In other words, Sandusky works because it's the seaside destination for all of Ohio (and parts of eastern Indiana as well). So in theory Zanesville, which is in fact within the Columbus CSA, should be a natural tourism destination for Columbus, much as the Catskills are for New York. Perhaps eastern Kentucky is also a draw for people from Cincinnati? But with all three of Ohio's major cities near its edges, you'd've thunk that someplace within the Ohio hill country would've emerged as the Poconos or Lehigh Gorge of the region, wouldn't you?

I wouldn’t say a “seaside” destination for all of Ohio... I think it’s mainly Cleveland, Toledo, and western environs and I’m sure visitors from the other metros. A lot of Put In Bay Area tourism is Michiganders too. NE Ohio... eastern Cleveland suburbs to the PA line and down to Youngstown area south largely go to Erie’s beaches at Presque Isle. Its less than an hour away in many cases from eastern OH.

Zanesville’s surroundings and are nothing like the Catskills though, nor the Poconos, etc.

[Razor]

Originally Posted by pj3000

Thanks for the Pennsylvania compliment and I'm glad you enjoyed your drive, but I-81 to I-476 would definitely not even rank in the top 100 scenic routes through PA.

Oh, I really need to see more then!.Western Penn,.My standards are set high too. Yanno, having the Canadian shield, the boreal forest and the gazillions of lakes as my personal Bench mark. The part of Penn that I did see, left a good impression, so I can only imagine..

[jpdivola]

Presque Island alone averages 4.2 million visitors annually, and tourism in the Erie region is a billion-dollar business with some 16.6k jobs in the sector (as of 2016). Contrary to what you're suggesting, Erie's tourism sector is, in fact, at minimum, an appreciable fraction of the Lake Erie Islands'.

The reason why should be obvious. Presque Isle is the closest beach to Pittsburgh, PA, and environs.[/QUOTE]

In a way, it's too bad Presque is in Erie PA. If it were 20 miles north or south it could support a cute little tourism town. It could be an Eastern great lakes draw like South Haven or Saugatuck.

[jpdivola]

Presque Island alone averages 4.2 million visitors annually, and tourism in the Erie region is a billion-dollar business with some 16.6k jobs in the sector (as of 2016). Contrary to what you're suggesting, Erie's tourism sector is, in fact, at minimum, an appreciable fraction of the Lake Erie Islands'.

The reason why should be obvious. Presque Isle is the closest beach to Pittsburgh, PA, and environs.

In a way, it's too bad Presque is in Erie PA. If it were 20 miles north or south it could support a cute little tourism town. It could be an Eastern great lakes draw like South Haven or Saugatuck.

[pj3000]

If it were 20 miles north, it would be in the Lake. And if it were 20 miles south, it wouldn’t be on Lake Erie.

Cute, little tourist towns on the lakes are plentiful. Cities with actual beaches are not.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by pj3000

Cute, little tourist towns on the lakes are plentiful. Cities with actual beaches are not.

that might be a difference between lake erie and lake michigan's eastern shore.

all of the touristy lake towns along michigan's west coast (new buffalo, st. joeseph, south haven, saugatuck, grand haven, etc.) have actual beaches, and giant sand dunes in many places, to boot.

in fact, the beaches/dunes are actually the main draw that makes those towns touristy in the first place.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by pj3000

I wouldn’t say a “seaside” destination for all of Ohio... I think it’s mainly Cleveland, Toledo, and western environs and I’m sure visitors from the other metros. A lot of Put In Bay Area tourism is Michiganders too. NE Ohio... eastern Cleveland suburbs to the PA line and down to Youngstown area south largely go to Erie’s beaches at Presque Isle. Its less than an hour away in many cases from eastern OH.

So I don't know how we're defining "a lot" but I've never heard of a Michigander going to Ohio for Great Lakes beaches. I mean, that doesn't make sense, unless your family has a legacy cottage or something. Lake Erie has a less-than-stellar rep. in Michigan (which may not be entirely fair).

Michiganders, overwhelmingly, go Up North for lakes/beaches. They don't go south for such things. Ohio's big attraction is Cedar Point.

[edale]

Originally Posted by pj3000

Right, the Lake Erie Islands is a popular place, being situated between Detroit and Cleveland, and with Cedar Point there too, they get a bunch of tourism (boating/partying it seems mainly)... which is what I imagine is Sandusky‘a major industry. So it’s kinda funny to have heard him basically claim that Erie (which is obviously much larger presently and historically than Sandusky, and undeniably prime rustbelt) wouldn’t have a sognificant tourism industry. It all stemmed from an Ohioan feeling slighted because Pennsylvania is commonly perceived as a more scenic, more naturally beautiful state, with its rustbelt cities potentially being better situated than Ohio’s to benefit from their natural surroundings.

Pittsburghers and other western Pennsylvanians are a prominent tourist group to the Erie área, but so are people from western NY and northeastern Ohio (because the beaches in Erie are FAR superior than what one can find in their own states) and southern Ontario. All one has to do is take a look at the license plates around Erie in the summertime especially to get.ñ very basic idea of how tourism contributes to the economy in a very rusty city like Erie.

Lol, no that's not what it stemmed from at all. You were trying to make the case for PA to be included in the conversation about rural areas that are more vibrant and cosmopolitan than they'd otherwise be because of tourism from large proximate cities. That's just not the case, even if you'd like to claim it to be so. Western PA is much more similar to what you'd find in Ohio than what you'd find in Western Mass. And the Lake Erie Islands are a much larger natural attraction than anything I can think of in Western PA. Erie is a larger city than Sandusky, and I have no doubt that locals there enjoy the strand of beach in the summer, and that the economy of Erie is supported by some regional tourism. But I'd wager that little old Sandusky in ugly Ohio gets way more tourists and tourism income than Erie and the other towns in Western PA. I mean, I've been to Warren, PA, and though it is very pretty, it's a depressed town (just like scores of similar towns in Ohio) and it's certainly not anybody's definition of cosmopolitan.

It is annoying to see Western Pennsylvanians try to distance themselves from Ohio and act like they're somehow superior, when most metrics would clearly suggest otherwise. I mean, for being in such a great natural setting, both in terms of beauty and being the state's only stretch of great lake coast line, Erie has historically been pretty underwhelming, no? It's like 1/3 the size of Toledo, which people around here apparently have no problems calling out for being ugly and sad. One of those throwing stones in glass houses types of situations, I think.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

that might be a difference between lake erie and lake michigan's eastern shore.

all of the touristy lake towns along michigan's west coast (new buffalo, st. joeseph, south haven, saugatuck, grand haven, etc.) have actual beaches, and giant sand dunes in many places, to boot.

in fact, the beaches/dunes are actually the main draw that makes those towns touristy in the first place.

Yeah, Lake Erie was/is the "industrial" Great Lake. It was never the cute, little beach town type of setting... more like mills, shipping, factories, railroads, etc. I mean, you obviously have the big industrial production places like Detroit, Toledo, Cleveland, Erie, Buffalo ringing the southern shore, but even the smaller places like Sandusky, Ashtabula, Conneaut, Dunkirk, etc. were industrial centers. It was right in the heart of American industrial might. Cities and towns were there for a purpose... and it wasn't for vacation

Originally Posted by Crawford

So I don't know how we're defining "a lot" but I've never heard of a Michigander going to Ohio for Great Lakes beaches. I mean, that doesn't make sense, unless your family has a legacy cottage or something. Lake Erie has a less-than-stellar rep. in Michigan (which may not be entirely fair).

Michiganders, overwhelmingly, go Up North for lakes/beaches. They don't go south for such things. Ohio's big attraction is Cedar Point.

I wouldn't think they go to Ohio for the beaches either, since Ohio's actual beaches are relatively few, small, and far inferior to Michigan's. And the western portion of Lake Erie isn't good terms of water quality, so I can't imagine people really wanting to do much beach time there. I was just saying that people from Detroit area seem to frequent Put-in-Bay, Lake Erie Islands, Cedar Point, etc.... for the boating, amusement park, "party atmosphere". That's what I've heard at least.

[edale]

Originally Posted by hammersklavier

That's a good question! I know that for all four of the Northeast's major metros (NYC, Boston, Philly, Baltimore/DC) there are seaside destinations and hillside destinations, some of which, like Atlantic City, Martha's Vineyard, and the Poconos are shared between different metros, and I would assume that such should exist for any major metropole where feasible. In other words, Sandusky works because it's the seaside destination for all of Ohio (and parts of eastern Indiana as well). So in theory Zanesville, which is in fact within the Columbus CSA, should be a natural tourism destination for Columbus, much as the Catskills are for New York. Perhaps eastern Kentucky is also a draw for people from Cincinnati? But with all three of Ohio's major cities near its edges, you'd've thunk that someplace within the Ohio hill country would've emerged as the Poconos or Lehigh Gorge of the region, wouldn't you?

There is a big draw in the Appalachian Foothills in Ohio called Hocking Hills. It's really beautiful, and only a little over an hour from Columbus, maybe 1.5 hours from Cincy. It mostly attracts campers and day hikers, though. Very pretty spot:





Clevelanders and Toledoans go to Put In Bay and the islands a ton in the weekends in the summer...very popular place. I've never heard of an Ohioan going to Erie, PA for a lake vacation for what it's worth. Beyond those big spots, most Ohioans I know who stay regional for vacations either go up to Michigan (especially Harbor Springs and the Traverse City area) or down to lakes in Kentucky and Tennessee (Cumberland and Norris lakes are both ~4 hour drives from Cincy and lots of people have lakehouses there...longer season than Michigan and the Great Lakes). Red River Gorge is a popular hiking and camping spot in KY, too. But a lot of people, just as I'm sure is the case in other parts of the Midwest and interior east, go down to Florida or the Carolinas for vacations.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by pj3000

Yeah, Lake Erie was/is the "industrial" Great Lake. It was never the cute, little beach town type of setting... more like mills, shipping, factories, railroads, etc. I mean, you obviously have the big industrial production places like Detroit, Toledo, Cleveland, Erie, Buffalo ringing the southern shore, but even the smaller places like Sandusky, Ashtabula, Conneaut, Dunkirk, etc. were industrial centers.

you get heavy industry on lake michigan too, but things got more segregated east vs. west.

starting at the bottom of the lake in NW indiana, you have very rusty towns like michigan city, gary, and hammond, and then you continue through chicago, and up into old lake ports like waukegan, kenosha, racine, and then into milwaukee.

but going up the other side of the lake, the michigan side got most of the sand, and hence the better beach towns.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by edale

Lol, no that's not what it stemmed from at all. You were trying to make the case for PA to be included in the conversation about rural areas that are more vibrant and cosmopolitan than they'd otherwise be because of tourism from large proximate cities. That's just not the case, even if you'd like to claim it to be so. Western PA is much more similar to what you'd find in Ohio than what you'd find in Western Mass. And the Lake Erie Islands are a much larger natural attraction than anything I can think of in Western PA. Erie is a larger city than Sandusky, and I have no doubt that locals there enjoy the strand of beach in the summer, and that the economy of Erie is supported by some regional tourism. But I'd wager that little old Sandusky in ugly Ohio gets way more tourists and tourism income than Erie and the other towns in Western PA. I mean, I've been to Warren, PA, and though it is very pretty, it's a depressed town (just like scores of similar towns in Ohio) and it's certainly not anybody's definition of cosmopolitan.

It is annoying to see Western Pennsylvanians try to distance themselves from Ohio and act like they're somehow superior, when most metrics would clearly suggest otherwise. I mean, for being in such a great natural setting, both in terms of beauty and being the state's only stretch of great lake coast line, Erie has historically been pretty underwhelming, no? It's like 1/3 the size of Toledo, which people around here apparently have no problems calling out for being ugly and sad. One of those throwing stones in glass houses types of situations, I think.

It had nothing to do with rural areas. This was always about rustbelt cities which may benefit economically from being in or in relative proximity to scenic areas which tourists travel to (be they from large proximate cities or not). And I never mentioned anything about any rustbelt city being more "vibrant and cosmopolitan" because of it. I focused on economic impact to a rustbelt city, period.

Someone mentioned that rustbelt cities in western Mass, upstate NY, and PA probably have better outlooks for that than rustbelt cities in Ohio or Indiana. I think Toledo and Fort Wayne might have been cited as example. And it's probably true. I brought up Erie because it is a poster child for the rustbelt given its continual gradual decline since the 1960s, yet the economy is still supported significantly by tourism simply because it has good beaches (for the Great Lakes). Without that tourism dollar, it might look a little bit more like Youngstown say (and I'm not suggesting that Erie is that far off from that). You brought Ohio's Lake Erie Islands into it, which is good. I think, if we consider Sandusky to be a rustbelt city, that it absolutely qualifies as a location in the discussion.

And no one is "distancing" themselves from Ohio. The point is that given the natural amenities of Ohio or Pennsylvania, I think any knowledgeable person would choose Pennsylvania. Call it geographic luck, but Pennsylvania is considered to be a much prettier place than Ohio... so maybe its rustbelt cities might have an advantage in that department.

[hallelujah]

Every state that Ohio touches is the rust belt.

[Shawn]

Originally Posted by pj3000

This is one of the tough parts about "rustbelt revival". It takes a long time. 30-40 years of decline aren't undone in 10. While eds & meds is constantly touted in rustbelt cities as evidence of revival, it simply cannot account for the huge employment numbers and wage levels that were once present for many decades from large-scale manufacturing. And "specialized manufacturing" is just positive spin on "small manufacturing".

The economic advances are relative, and they don't fully filter down to the municipal (city and county in the case of Springfield/Chicopee/Holyoke and Hampden) level. Touting broad regional numbers can make things sound a lot better than they actually are. I would say that Springfield is in the category of "resurging Rust Belt cities"... given what's going on in the overall region... with much of that resulting from the Knowledge Corridor initiative since the early 2000s, which you mention. But it's still Rust Belt, and economic indicators from the Fed illustrate that. The area was hit really hard by manufacturing losses and was in a low, low place by the 1990s... it's gonna take some time. For one example (though a majorly indicative one), per capita incomes and poverty levels are still low and high, respectively... still fully at "Rust Belt" city levels.

Totally, and I didn’t mean to give the impression that Springfield is doing amazingly well. It’s not, especially relative to metro Boston all of two hours away. But it has two major advantages many other Rust Belt cities don’t: 1.) it’s in Massachusetts, a state which isn’t squeamish about budgeting state tax money to help cities and towns, and 2.) New England rust is older rust (textiles) and there’s been extra time to polish it off. We started tanking in the 40s and 50s as our textiles and furniture manufacturing left for the South, whereas heavy manufacturing left other parts of the Rust Belt in the 60s-80s. Your point about time needed is spot in.

[dc_denizen]

Does Pittsfield have any manufacturing industry left? At one point it was a huge GE center as I recall.

I was thinking of tourist towns (formerly industrial) like Pittsfield, not Springfield to compare to smaller rust belt towns

Erie by the way has wabtec (formerly ge) main locomotive manufacturing plant. In fact they just shut down a factory in Idaho to work to Erie

In our globalized world who knows how long this lasts but it’s amazing to me that this thread can discuss Erie in the context of presque isle tourism multiple times without bringing up the locomotive plant

[dc_denizen]

Originally Posted by edale

Clevelanders and Toledoans go to Put In Bay and the islands a ton in the weekends in the summer...very popular place. I've never heard of an Ohioan going to Erie, PA for a lake vacation for what it's worth. Beyond those big spots, most Ohioans I know who stay regional for vacations either go up to Michigan (especially Harbor Springs and the Traverse City area) or down to lakes in Kentucky and Tennessee (Cumberland and Norris lakes are both ~4 hour drives from Cincy and lots of people have lakehouses there...longer season than Michigan and the Great Lakes). Red River Gorge is a popular hiking and camping spot in KY, too. But a lot of people, just as I'm sure is the case in other parts of the Midwest and interior east, go down to Florida or the Carolinas for vacations.

lol, we must have been the exception but growing up in ne Ohio we went go presque isle a lot, as a beach day trip

Generally vacation meant driving to the UP or Ontario though , I think that’s the typical Ohio plan. Rarely if ever went south

[Buckeye Native 001]

Clevelanders might not go south, but there's an old joke about Cincinnatians knowing their ways around places like Florida's Gulf Coast, Myrtle Beach and even Gatlinburg better than their hometown...