Americans Are Moving South, West Again

[dave8721]

Originally Posted by Ryanrule

Any public funds for charter schools should be outright banned.

There, problem solved.

I kind of agree with that. It just doesn't make sense to have what are basically two parallel schools systems running. Pick one way and go with it. Not to mention in Florida at least charter schools opened up a massive new avenue for corruption and scams (only legalized by the legislature, many of whom happen to run charter school companies as their second jobs).

[lzppjb]

Originally Posted by lio45

Everything's a trade-off. I'm sure you could've bought something in the heart of downtown, that something just wouldn't have been a large detached SFH with its own big yard.

The way I read your post, your move to the burbs was actually pretty much a desire, since you desired something that only the burbs could supply, i.e. a reasonably priced nice detached house on a decently large lot. You chose a property in the burbs over any of the many properties Austin had to offer that met your price requirements (probably small condos), which wasn't an unreasonable choice, but still a choice, a choice you made.

You're right. I did want a detached SFH. Austin proper has a lot of them. Just nothing I could afford at the time. I probably could now if I had waited a bit longer. I have absolutely no desire to live in a condo unless it's a vacation home on the beach.

[Centropolis]

rowhouses are very nice if you want outdoor space but dont want the yard BS. i think denver is building a decent number of new ones, so they aren't limited to the midwest and east coast/san fran.

[Lakelander]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

rowhouses are very nice if you want outdoor space but dont want the yard BS. i think denver is building a decent number of new ones, so they aren't limited to the midwest and east coast/san fran.

In my situation, rowhouses/townhomes are an ideal solution for me. Unfortunately, we don't have them in large numbers in the urban core areas of the city I'm currently in. Thousands of them in the burbs. Probably less than 200 units in the core.

[gallo]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

A whole bunch of my suburban neighbors moved here from the city. And it wasn't right after they popped out a baby. It was usually either after their child was a few years older, or their second child was born.

It's all anecdotal, but it's still happening all the time. I love the city, but it's simply a pain in the ass to have young children in the city. There are so many reasons why this is true, but I'm sure that my points here will be drowned out in all the usual suburban-hating catcalls around here that I won't even bother.

As a near-40 urbanist dad of two kids in Lakeview, I don't agree with this at all... it's very easy and convenient to live car-light with a family in Chicago. In multifamily/condo housing no less! Park across the street, train 5 min walk away, school 10 min walk, restaurants, bars and stores nearby, way more playgrounds than you would ever believe if you don't have kids, the lakefront and beaches and all of downtown cultural offerings. It's a hell of a lot harder to have a middle-class urban lifestyle in SF, DC, NYC or Boston because of real estate costs, but Chicago... nope, not hard at all. The pain in the ass is when we have to go to the suburbs for anything, which is maybe 2-3 times a year.

We have kids in about 3/4 of the homes on our block, with millennial renters filling in the other 1/4.

But, in order to do so, you have to get beyond the suburban big new single-family home mindset.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by gallo

As a near-40 urbanist dad of two kids in Lakeview, I don't agree with this at all... it's very easy and convenient to live car-light with a family in Chicago. In multifamily/condo housing no less! Park across the street, train 5 min walk away, school 10 min walk, restaurants, bars and stores nearby,

That doesn't sound too convenient to me. Not many parents are going to be thrilled about lugging kids in car seats down stairs and across a city street, or dealing with neighbors driven crazy by kids footsteps and noise all day, or no reliable local schools, or bar noise until 4 AM waking up the kids.

I know this is largely an urbanist forum, but let's be real. The vast majority of families leave the city because the suburbs are just easier when you have kids. Who the hell would prefer street parking down the block as opposed to an attached garage, or loud neighbors waking up your kids as opposed to dead-quiet suburbia? Kids don't mix with bars, transit, multifamily, etc.

When you have kids your priorities change, at least for the vast majority of households.

[fflint]

Originally Posted by Crawford

I know this is largely an urbanist forum, but let's be real. The vast majority of families leave the city because the suburbs are just easier when you have kids.

Okay--let's "be real." And then let's move on.

Suburbs exist, and people live in them. Skyscraperpage, however, is not a forum about suburbs and the people who live in them--this is, as you and most anyone would admit, largely an urbanist forum.

I'm sure there are all sorts of exciting forums about suburbs and the suburban life, and people who don't want to suffer the horrors of forumers discussing raising children in cities--or not raising children at all--should avail themselves of such forums so the rest of us here can get on with more salient discussions.

[BnaBreaker]

Originally Posted by Crawford

That doesn't sound too convenient to me. Not many parents are going to be thrilled about lugging kids in car seats down stairs and across a city street, or dealing with neighbors driven crazy by kids footsteps and noise all day, or no reliable local schools, or bar noise until 4 AM waking up the kids.

I know this is largely an urbanist forum, but let's be real. The vast majority of families leave the city because the suburbs are just easier when you have kids. Who the hell would prefer street parking down the block as opposed to an attached garage, or loud neighbors waking up your kids as opposed to dead-quiet suburbia? Kids don't mix with bars, transit, multifamily, etc.

When you have kids your priorities change, at least for the vast majority of households.

Either you're joking, or you don't actually live in New York City.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by gallo

As a near-40 urbanist dad of two kids in Lakeview, I don't agree with this at all... it's very easy and convenient to live car-light with a family in Chicago. In multifamily/condo housing no less! Park across the street, train 5 min walk away, school 10 min walk, restaurants, bars and stores nearby, way more playgrounds than you would ever believe if you don't have kids, the lakefront and beaches and all of downtown cultural offerings. It's a hell of a lot harder to have a middle-class urban lifestyle in SF, DC, NYC or Boston because of real estate costs, but Chicago... nope, not hard at all. The pain in the ass is when we have to go to the suburbs for anything, which is maybe 2-3 times a year.

We have kids in about 3/4 of the homes on our block, with millennial renters filling in the other 1/4.

But, in order to do so, you have to get beyond the suburban big new single-family home mindset.

sounds like a parallel life, except i'm up in edgewater.

our 6-flat on a gorgeous tree-lined street consists of 5 younger middle class families with a total of 8 children ranging in age from newborn to 10, and one older childless gay couple. the playground at the end of our block, daycare a 5 minute walk away, lots of stores and restaurants close by, the beach a 10 minute walk away, and grandma and grandpa's home only 5 blocks away all make for a wonderful place to raise a family. we have a car, but it's rarely used, we walk everywhere. it's such a nice way to live. i feel truly blessed to be able to live the life that i'm living.

i mean, we get to walk to the fucking beach!

whenever we want!

#livingthedream

[Vlajos]

Originally Posted by gallo

As a near-40 urbanist dad of two kids in Lakeview, I don't agree with this at all... it's very easy and convenient to live car-light with a family in Chicago. In multifamily/condo housing no less! Park across the street, train 5 min walk away, school 10 min walk, restaurants, bars and stores nearby, way more playgrounds than you would ever believe if you don't have kids, the lakefront and beaches and all of downtown cultural offerings. It's a hell of a lot harder to have a middle-class urban lifestyle in SF, DC, NYC or Boston because of real estate costs, but Chicago... nope, not hard at all. The pain in the ass is when we have to go to the suburbs for anything, which is maybe 2-3 times a year.

We have kids in about 3/4 of the homes on our block, with millennial renters filling in the other 1/4.

But, in order to do so, you have to get beyond the suburban big new single-family home mindset.

This. As a father in Chicago, it is not at all difficult to have a family in the City. Our neighborhood is filled with kids that go to the local CPS school (my family included), magnet schools, Catholic Schools and fancy private schools. There is a trade off in terms of yard and house size. This is why most people who leave the city, move to the suburbs. Very few do it because they want to. It's a trade off for a larger home and yard.

[bobdreamz]

Originally Posted by Crawford

That doesn't sound too convenient to me.Not many parents are going to be thrilled about lugging kids in car seats down stairs and across a city street, or dealing with neighbors driven crazy by kids footsteps and noise all day, or no reliable local schools, or bar noise until 4 AM waking up the kids.

I know this is largely an urbanist forum, but let's be real. The vast majority of families leave the city because the suburbs are just easier when you have kids. Who the hell would prefer street parking down the block as opposed to an attached garage, or loud neighbors waking up your kids as opposed to dead-quiet suburbia? Kids don't mix with bars, transit, multifamily, etc.

When you have kids your priorities change, at least for the vast majority of households.

It's possible. Having grown up in West New York City & Union City , N.J across from Manhattan I lived in a 3- story building and walked to school everyday which was 8 blocks away.
We didn't own a car until I was 11 years old so it was irrelevant. My father worked in Manhattan so he took the bus & train to work and everything else was within a 1 mile walking distance for me on a daily basis.

How different is it to be lugging kids in car seats down stairs in a two story house in the suburbs also?

[Qubert]

Originally Posted by ardecila

This doesn't surprise me honestly. America is always about private industry giving people what they want. The recession, harsh as it was, was not enough to reset consumer preferences because most people burned by the recession preferred to blame Wall Street fat cats instead of their own poor financial decisions to buy too much house for too much money too far away from jobs and services.

Ongoing gentrification in the big cities, however, will do the job. The wealthy are almost always the first to glom onto new trends and then set the desires for the rest of America. Housing preferences take decades to change, but other than that they're just like fancy cupcakes or froyo.

Desire for urbanity WILL percolate down to the average Joe. It already has, to some extent, but our cities are not prepared to handle this. Zoning codes do not allow for population growth in existing urban centers and do not allow for new urban centers to be created in suburban/rural areas. Transportation policy in much of the country still pushes roads over public transit, and real urbanity is geometrically impossible if everyone has to drive everywhere. Given these facts, it's no surprise that costs for urban living are skyrocketing and even people with an urban preference are forced to seek cheaper housing in sprawlsville.

I'd rather have the wealthy in cities and let the average joe decide for themselves where they would want to live. Yes, it sounds elitist, but in the end I'm more concerned with making cities better places than wither or not they are "popular" or not. Bigger is not always better.

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by Crawford

That doesn't sound too convenient to me. Not many parents are going to be thrilled about lugging kids in car seats down stairs and across a city street, or dealing with neighbors driven crazy by kids footsteps and noise all day, or no reliable local schools, or bar noise until 4 AM waking up the kids.

I know this is largely an urbanist forum, but let's be real. The vast majority of families leave the city because the suburbs are just easier when you have kids. Who the hell would prefer street parking down the block as opposed to an attached garage, or loud neighbors waking up your kids as opposed to dead-quiet suburbia? Kids don't mix with bars, transit, multifamily, etc.

When you have kids your priorities change, at least for the vast majority of households.

See I think this is a huge perception, and in a lot of cases (like my own) simply not a reality. My wife and I are raising a family in Fitler Square (Philly) - an affluent row home neighborhood, with a stable school, and your typical list of big city kid amenities: parks, playgrounds, ballfields, bball/tennis/hockey courts, children's play studio/theatre - all within a few minutes walk.

Within 1 block (100 foot radius) from my front door are the following amenities: supermarket, CVS, 7-11, 2 coffee-shops, 3 brunch spots, 2 pubs, 2 pet stores, 2 hair salons, byob, dry-cleaner, camp store, children's play theatre, organic food store, a large gym, hardware store, pizza shop, Thai place, a bicycle shop, Ritas water ice, a take out beer place, and middle-eastern food spot.

So let's compare a simple task with kids between where I live - and my friends in the suburbs to determine which lifestyle is more "convenient": going to CVS to pick up diapers w/ 2 kids.

City:
I put my infant in a baby bjorn.
The toddler walks better than I do.
We descend 2 steps from our row home, walk about 75 feet down the block to the CVS.
Buy Diapers. Return home, walk up 2 steps, take infant out of Bjorn. Done.
Total Time: 5minutes

Suburbs:
You need the car seat/stroller. So you have to lug the stroller out of your house, down your drive way and into your car. You have to then lug your infant (in the car seat) out of the house and lock it into your car. You then have to strap your toddler into their carseat.
You then drive 5-10minutes.
You park in a parking lot. You need to get your stroller out. Pull the baby car seat out and place it in the stroller. Then get your toddler out. You then walk 40feet into the CVS.
After purchasing your diapers. You need to walk 40 feet back to the car, place the infant car seat in the car. Fold the stroller up and put it back into your car. Then strap your toddler into their car seat.
You then drive 5-10minutes home.
Pull into drive way and then you have to lug your infant (still in car seat) BACK inside. Lug your stroller back in-side- and then make sure Toddler is in safe.
Total Time: 30+minutes

Rinse and repeat that for almost anything in the suburbs. Want to go to a park/playground that's not within walking distance? Rinse and repeat. Want to go to brunch in town? Rinse and repeat.

Frankly, what i've found, is that my suburbanite friends with young children - don't really do that much. Like, at all. Except watch a shit-ton of Netflix at night after work. Especially M-F. So is that lifestyle really more convenient, or have they just simplified?

One last point - as a family raising their kids in the city - everyone we're surrounded by is raising their kids in the city. The notion that no one does this (even if it seems odd) - is absurd. At little league games, at the park, at the school playground, at kids soccer games, at the cafe - it's all families doing what we're doing.

It seems that you're surrounded by suburbanite friends/family - and that's the circle you're in. I'm only surrounded by urbanist families so it's a totally different outlook/perspective.

[Leo the Dog]

Originally Posted by bobdreamz

It's possible. Having grown up in West New York City & Union City , N.J across from Manhattan I lived in a 3- story building and walked to school everyday which was 8 blocks away.
We didn't own a car until I was 11 years old so it was irrelevant. My father worked in Manhattan so he took the bus & train to work and everything else was within a 1 mile walking distance for me on a daily basis.

How different is it to be lugging kids in car seats down stairs in a two story house in the suburbs also?

Of course its possible, but for an overwhelming majority of American families prefer to raise their children outside of urban centers, whether its a financial decision (better ROI) or better schools, or better lifestyle etc. This isn't to say that inner-city living can't be done right or that families don't exist in inner-cities...of course they do.

That 2 story suburban house probably has an attached garage inside the house, thats quite different from a 5 minute walk a couple blocks away.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Londonee

See I think this is a huge perception, and in a lot of cases (like my own) simply not a reality. My wife and I are raising a family in Fitler Square (Philly) - an affluent row home neighborhood, with a stable school, and your typical list of big city kid amenities: parks, playgrounds, ballfields, bball/tennis/hockey courts, children's play studio/theatre - all within a few minutes walk.

You're a hard-core committed urbanist, and from your response there is nothing that would have you move to the suburbs. Philly could sink into the Delaware River and turn worse than Camden and you would come up with reasoning why it works for you. But you simply aren't typical. That's fine, and it's awesome you like the city. We need more people like you.

But there's no way you're going to convince most people that it's easier to live with neighbors above and below you who hear every stomp and scream, crappy schools, far more street noise, much smaller living spaces, cars parked down the block (in January snowstorms, no less), no outdoor space, rowdy nightlife, less safety, more expensive childcare, fewer mommies and kids as neighbors, etc. It just isn't convenient for the vast majority of people. Most people don't live in the suburbs because they love it; it's just much easier with kids.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Leo the Dog

Of course its possible, but for an overwhelming majority of American families prefer to raise their children outside of urban centers, whether its a financial decision (better ROI) or better schools, or better lifestyle etc. This isn't to say that inner-city living can't be done right or that families don't exist in inner-cities...of course they do.

That 2 story suburban house probably has an attached garage inside the house, thats quite different from a 5 minute walk a couple blocks away.

Yeah, I'm not saying it isn't possible. In fact I'm planning on doing it. But frankly I'm a lot better off than most families, I'm planning on one kid, and even for me it will be a big challenge.

[Eightball]

+ a million to Londonee's and Bob Dreamz's posts.

[the urban politician]

Maybe I'll try too. Steely, Gallo and Vlajos are tempting me.....

[PHL10]

Originally Posted by Crawford

You're a hard-core committed urbanist, and from your response there is nothing that would have you move to the suburbs. Philly could sink into the Delaware River and turn worse than Camden and you would come up with reasoning why it works for you. But you simply aren't typical. That's fine, and it's awesome you like the city. We need more people like you.

But there's no way you're going to convince most people that it's easier to live with neighbors above and below you who hear every stomp and scream, crappy schools, far more street noise, much smaller living spaces, cars parked down the block (in January snowstorms, no less), no outdoor space, rowdy nightlife, less safety, more expensive childcare, fewer mommies and kids as neighbors, etc. It just isn't convenient for the vast majority of people. Most people don't live in the suburbs because they love it; it's just much easier with kids.

It sounds like I only live a few blocks from Londonee but urban living isn’t as homogeneous as your broad strokes paint it. You keep talking about noise between living units. I live in a rowhome and don’t have that problem. Further my entire block is full of middle class families – I would say half go to private and half go to public schools. It sounds like you live in a college dorm if that is such a big worry.

While I appreciate that we urban families are in the minority, it doesn’t mean that our choices are somehow eccentric or not logical. That’s basically what you are saying about Londonee. I don’t tell suburban families how they are crazy that they live in the burbs but they generally seem to feel a lot more free in judging me and my family about our choices, which is why I find your criticism strange. Considering you are a self professed urbanist, I find your whole argument a bit….I don’t know…insecure or defensive? Did you marry a chick who won’t stay in the City after kids or something?

Londonee, I go to the Walgreens and not the CVS for diapers if that gives you a clue to my location.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by PHL10

It sounds like I only live a few blocks from Londonee but urban living isn’t as homogeneous as your broad strokes paint it. You keep talking about noise between living units. I live in a rowhome and don’t have that problem. Further my entire block is full of middle class families – I would say half go to private and half go to public schools. It sounds like you live in a college dorm if that is such a big worry.

There is no way to live in an urban environment and not have neighbors annoyed by your kids screaming/footsteps unless you're very wealthy. If you live in a multifamily property, you will have neighbors pissed off at you. Simple as that.

If you live in a rowhouse, you are either wealthy or not in a prime neighborhood, and you will either have neighbors or lots of steep steps and narrow spaces to navigate. None of this sounds ideal for children. Suburban houses are typically built for children, and built for how families live today.

Originally Posted by PHL10

Londonee, I go to the Walgreens and not the CVS for diapers if that gives you a clue to my location.

This isn't an issue anywhere. People typically don't go to the corner store these days for diapers. That's what Amazon and diapers.com are for. It's hardly easier to be lugging giant boxes of baby crap down the street in January than having Amazon Prime deliver to doorstep, regardless of city or suburb.