Mid Sized Cities/Metros

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by Minato Ku

An isolated city often feels bigger than its size because it is the big hub over a large territory.

Brazil is a very good place to study this phenomenon. As the country has a huge number of cities ranging between 100,000 and 500,000 inhabitants, you can pick up several examples of cities with the same size, but with very distinct hinterlands, which has a direct impact of how a city looks like.

[Razor]

Originally Posted by isaidso

We seem to be saying the same thing. Canada has long been a more outward looking nation out of necessity, we don't have a large captive domestic market/population. 4 big cities? By US standards we have perhaps 6, but cities here need to act as regional centres even if they don't have a big population. Take Halifax for example. It's far more cosmopolitan than Portland, Maine despite having roughly the same population.

You see the same phenomenon going from the US to China. A US metro of 5 million+ will already start taking on a cosmopolitan feel. In China you have to go to a metro far larger than that to get the same thing.

In conclusion, a city of 500,000 in Canada, the US, and India are not going to have the same level of influence because of the demands placed upon them. Halifax, Nova Scotia might only have 400,000 but it still ranks as the biggest city in the region. By extension, it's home to the east coast navy, the coast guard, home to the region's principal international airport, a centre for medical, research, etc. It has a big port. It goes on and on. If Halifax were in New England, it would be just another city.

This isn't a knock against the US, but just the way things are.

Yes so true..It's all relative.

Along the same lines, you can take a minor U.S say a city like Syracuse NY, and had it been a Canadian city it would be considered a fairly major one. Same with a city like Toledo. Maybe Vancouver, had it been an American city, would be at the same level of importance of a Sacramento or Cincinnati. Up here it's almost like a Chicago. It's hard to guage these "what if" scenerios accurately though, especially when you base it purely on population..For example,and other posters have alluded to already anyways,Montreal is far more important to Canada then say Seattle is to the U.S..Same with say Calgary as compared to Louisville. See the Scandinavian countries and Ireland as well. Their major cities aren't that large, but Dublin may as well be NYC.

[Centropolis]

something that has perplexed me. are housing prices a barrier to entry re: property ownership in canada? i mean unless you are at least gen x and have been riding the ride? ive seen fixer-upper 1970s houses in metro toronto on cable shows for 600k canadian, whereas 300,000 us will get you a rehabbed 3 bed spacious upper middle victorian here. it's a weird difference. perhaps average entry level pay is like 100k in toronto.

[Beedok]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

something that has perplexed me. are housing prices a barrier to entry re: property ownership in canada? i mean unless you are at least gen x and have been riding the ride? ive seen fixer-upper 1970s houses in metro toronto on cable shows for 600k canadian, whereas 300,000 us will get you a rehabbed 3 bed spacious upper middle victorian here. it's a weird difference. perhaps average entry level pay is like 100k in toronto.

Debt. Way way way too much debt. Lots of rented out basements and whatnot too.

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by Beedok

Debt. Way way way too much debt. Lots of rented out basements and whatnot too.

what suprises me i guess is not so much that housing prices are high, hell they are in europe, but that canada (appears) to combine that with a property ownership culture, too. a lot of us in the states have been paying off debt over the past few years.

my ex and i were sort of urban pioneers and bought a nice brick house that didnt need rehab for well under 100k and were never underwater, but i'm shy to buy again. i rent a two story 1890s house, now.

[Nouvellecosse]

The US has very high properly prices too in its most desirable areas, so there really isn't much difference there. In fact the most desirable places in the US like Manhattan probably have higher prices than the most desirable places in Canada.

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

The US has very high properly prices too in its most desirable areas, so there really isn't much difference there. In fact the most desirable places in the US like Manhattan probably have higher prices than the most desirable places in Canada.

the midwest has 66 million people, so there's a huge difference.

[Nouvellecosse]

Sorry I fail to see the connection. What does population size have to do with desirability?

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Sorry I fail to see the connection. What does population size have to do with desirability?

the difference is a monumental amount of variablity.

go for a big drive, some day, on this continent. el paso is cool.

[NorthernDancer]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

something that has perplexed me. are housing prices a barrier to entry re: property ownership in canada? i mean unless you are at least gen x and have been riding the ride? ive seen fixer-upper 1970s houses in metro toronto on cable shows for 600k canadian, whereas 300,000 us will get you a rehabbed 3 bed spacious upper middle victorian here. it's a weird difference. perhaps average entry level pay is like 100k in toronto.

The average price for a single home in Toronto is close to $1 million now:

http://www.thestar.com/business/real...to_965000.html

Average price of single home in Toronto shoots up 13% to $965,000

It’s a record likely to be shattered by summer: The average sale price of a detached home in the City of Toronto hit $965,670 in April.
That number is expected to exceed $1 million over the coming weeks

A decade ago, the average detached house in the 416 region sold for just $486,489.
The April number pushes Toronto further into the stratosphere of Canada’s priciest real estate market, Vancouver. There, the average detached sold for close to $1.2 million in April, a drop from the record $1.36 million it recorded in February.

[The ATX]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

Quite true - cities with 1-1.5M in Canada (Calgary, Edmonton and Ottawa) hold a national importance which bigger cities like Columbus, Providence and Cincinnati don't come close to in the US. I believe the cause is just that there aren't many large cities and that Canada has only about 1/10th of the US's population.

So as a proportion of the population, multiply Canadian cities by ten:
Toronto at 50M
Montreal at 40M
Vancouver at 25M
Ottawa, Calgary and Edmonton at 10-15M
Winnipeg, Quebec City and Hamilton at 7M
...
Thunder Bay at 1M


And for us Canadians to get an idea of American cities, divide them by ten:
New York at just under 2M
LA at 1.5M
...
Boston at 400k
...
Charlotte and Salt Lake City a whopping 90 000 inhabitants - America's Belleville or Chilliwack

I kid, but it does show you just how concentrated Canada's population is in its big cities compared to the US.

That's a good way to put the population differences into perspective.

[Metro-One]

Yeah but even that is not as clear cut, what about nations where over 50% of their population live in one city?

Take South Korea for example. It has a national population of 50 000 000 people (much less than many suspect I think).

Metro Seoul (the largest city) is a massive 25 000 000 people.

So then, using the strategy above, if South Korea were the USA:

Seoul = 160 000 000 people.... kind of a silly way to measure the importance of cities.

It is an interesting method of thought, and does add some insight, but it also goes off the rails at a certain point.

How about Iceland

Within nations themselves same sized metros can have completely different cultural impacts, vibes, etc...

Las Vegas is a perfect example, one of the most famous cities on the planet, but in the USA it is the 30th largest metro area. Even in Canada it would be #4. But, it sure has an amazing amount of fame throughout the world!

[Xelebes]

Originally Posted by seaJ

In fact, being Canada's ONLY large west coast city you'd think Vancouver would be a cultural/business powerhouse..being that it would attract folks from all over Canada looking for a west coast outpost. Funny how that's not the case..

Vancouver is a cultural powerhouse. In Canada. For what that is worth. Economic powerhouse is a different issue but that may be due to the lack of manufacturing base it developed. It doesn't have the benefit of the connections to New York or London (Toronto and Montreal (the latter breaking its ties in the Revolution Tranquille) managed to keep strong ties to London.) Perhaps the new capital from Hong Kong may mean that Vancouver develops what it has been missing.

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Yeah but even that is not as clear cut, what about nations where over 50% of their population live in one city?

Take South Korea for example. It has a national population of 50 000 000 people (much less than many suspect I think).

Metro Seoul (the largest city) is a massive 25 000 000 people.

So then, using the strategy above, if South Korea were the USA:

Seoul = 160 000 000 people.... kind of a silly way to measure the importance of cities.

It is an interesting method of thought, and does add some insight, but it also goes off the rails at a certain point.

Oh for sure! It's just an interesting way of getting people from one country to understand the demographic importance of cities in another. A city of 1M means something very different to an American than to a Canadian. But of course, it doesn't take regional importance, worldwide recognition or 'vibe' into account.


Just a fun party trick

Oh, and an American Reykjavik would be just shy of 200M hab. and an Icelandic NYC would be a town of 20 000 inhabitants.

[hipster duck]

I agree that a Canadian city of 1 million will invariably feel bigger and be more important than an American city of 1 million. This would apply across the board, regardless of a city's age or where it is.

Edmonton and Calgary feel bigger than Hartford or Providence, despite the latter two being several centuries older, and with extensive historic areas.

The big exception to this, of course, is New Orleans.

New Orleans is the littlest big city in North America. It's a city that has had an outsized influence on American culture, and was so culturally fertile particularly because of its early metropolitan qualities: an old port, and melting pot of Creole, French, Black, Italian, American Indian, English, Spanish cultures; kids growing up with allegiances to specific city neighborhoods and quadrants (normally this only happens in the very biggest cities, like Brooklyn or Boston).

If you don't count things like Fortune 500 headquarters, population and how many places you can fly to from the airport, New Orleans is a big city. Bigger than any Canadian city other than Toronto or Montreal.

Basically, what I wrote about Venice earlier applies to New Orleans. The 2 even have some uncanny resemblances, being both carved out of uninhabitable swampland with a pervasive sense of ecological fragility and weathered beauty.

[Austinlee]

Originally Posted by NorthernDancer

The average price for a single home in Toronto is close to $1 million now:

http://www.thestar.com/business/real...to_965000.html

Average price of single home in Toronto shoots up 13% to $965,000

This is a shame considering how FUCKING BIG Canada is and how relatively small the population is!

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by Austinlee

This is a shame considering how FUCKING BIG Canada is and how relatively small the population is!

Just because we have the space doesn't mean we want to sprawl all over it...

[NorthernDancer]

Originally Posted by Austinlee

This is a shame considering how FUCKING BIG Canada is and how relatively small the population is!

The size of the country if of no relevance. People want to live in the city of Toronto because it's a desirable place to live. Hence the average single family home is around $1 million.

[Beedok]

Originally Posted by Austinlee

This is a shame considering how FUCKING BIG Canada is and how relatively small the population is!

I suppose we should relocate millions to the tundra and shield.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Razor

Yes so true..It's all relative.

Along the same lines, you can take a minor U.S say a city like Syracuse NY, and had it been a Canadian city it would be considered a fairly major one. Same with a city like Toledo. Maybe Vancouver, had it been an American city, would be at the same level of importance of a Sacramento or Cincinnati. Up here it's almost like a Chicago. It's hard to guage these "what if" scenerios accurately though, especially when you base it purely on population..For example,and other posters have alluded to already anyways,Montreal is far more important to Canada then say Seattle is to the U.S..Same with say Calgary as compared to Louisville. See the Scandinavian countries and Ireland as well. Their major cities aren't that large, but Dublin may as well be NYC.

Indeed.