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  #81  
Old Posted Aug 7, 2014, 4:00 PM
memph memph is offline
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By the way, how are Danish metro areas defined? I was pretty surprised to see how much the Aarhus metro area included, it would be like if you lumped Woodstock, Tilsonburg, Sarnia, London and St Thomas into one big metro area. Or Windsor-Leamington-Chatham-Wallaceburg. Or maybe even Stratford-Fergus-Kitchener-Waterloo-Cambridge-Guelph-Brantford-Hamilton-Caledonia-St Catharines-Niagara Falls-Welland-Fort Erie-Port Colborne...

Are there any specific commuting criteria or is it more of a subjectively and loosely defined greater economic region?
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  #82  
Old Posted Aug 7, 2014, 6:57 PM
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It would be better to focus on the urban areas definition and forget about metros/CSAs.

What would be the population of Copenhagen, based on the US or Canadian definition of densities at greater than 1000/sq mile?
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  #83  
Old Posted Aug 7, 2014, 7:48 PM
alchemist redux alchemist redux is offline
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Originally Posted by memph View Post
Now, I'm not one of those people that says Toronto is about the same size as Chicago, because the 10,000 square mile area is the only comparison in which Toronto comes close, and the commuter patterns aren't the same.
I agree. I would say that Canada's metros are relatively dense and small in area, not only compared to American metros, but wealthier Northern European metros like Hamburg, Berlin, CPH, Stockholm, Oslo, Helsinki, etc.

Part of the reason for this might be that Canada is automobile dependent, but our planners and policy makers have sort of taken a land use and transportation path that's halfway between auto-friendliness and transit-friendliness. It means that Canadian suburbanites rely quite heavily on cars, but there isn't as much road capacity as in an American metro to ferry them around, nor is there an extensive regional rail system like in Europe to allow long distance commuting. Not surprisingly, Canadian metros have a very steep land price gradient between the central city and the outermost suburbs, some of which can be quite close. For example, a home that is structurally the same in an inner city Vancouver neighbourhood can be 5-8X the price of an almost-identical home in Chilliwack, Vancouver's outermost exurb.
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  #84  
Old Posted Aug 7, 2014, 7:50 PM
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Originally Posted by alchemist redux View Post
I agree. I would say that Canada's metros are relatively dense and small in area, not only compared to American metros, but wealthier Northern European metros like Hamburg, Berlin, CPH, Stockholm, Oslo, Helsinki, etc.

Part of the reason for this might be that Canada is automobile dependent, but our planners and policy makers have sort of taken a land use and transportation path that's halfway between auto-friendliness and transit-friendliness. It means that Canadian suburbanites rely quite heavily on cars, but there isn't as much road capacity as in an American metro to ferry them around, nor is there an extensive regional rail system like in Europe to allow long distance commuting. Not surprisingly, Canadian metros have a very steep land price gradient between the central city and the outermost suburbs, some of which can be quite close. For example, a home that is structurally the same in an inner city Vancouver neighbourhood can be 7-10X the price of an almost-identical home in Chilliwack, Vancouver's outermost exurb.
I don't think you can count Chilliwack as a Vancouver exurb. It's definitely its own city. But yeah, the point stands. As a general rule of thumb, the farther away you get from downtown the cheaper the houses are.
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  #85  
Old Posted Aug 7, 2014, 7:54 PM
alchemist redux alchemist redux is offline
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Originally Posted by GlassCity View Post
I don't think you can count Chilliwack as a Vancouver exurb. It's definitely its own city. But yeah, the point stands. As a general rule of thumb, the farther away you get from downtown the cheaper the houses are.
Yeah, it's definitely its own city, but to make a point I thought about the furthest possible place that people would conceivably live and commute in to Vancouver. That's sort of an approximation of how labour market-based metros are defined.
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  #86  
Old Posted Aug 7, 2014, 8:02 PM
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Originally Posted by alchemist redux View Post
Yeah, it's definitely its own city, but to make a point I thought about the furthest possible place that people would conceivably live and commute in to Vancouver. That's sort of an approximation of how labour market-based metros are defined.
Yeah, I just can't imagine there's very many people that do that! I'd rather live in a more dangerous neighbourhood then face a 2 hour commute each way.
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  #87  
Old Posted Aug 7, 2014, 9:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Again, there are basically only three freeways in Toronto.
No Crawford, there are not "basically only three freeways in Toronto". There are 8 freeways in the city of Toronto's 243 square mile limits. None of those 8 freeways are even in the suburbs, let alone "out in the sticks". In fact, the Allen Expressway is only a 5 or 6 mile drive from the CBD/Financial District.

Freeways in the CITY OF TORONTO:

Gardiner Expressway
DVP
404
427
409
401
400
Allen Expressway

That's 8 freeways to serve 2.7 million people, or about 1 freeway for every 340,000 people or so. That's probably about the same number of freeways per capita as large American cities like NY, Chicago, and LA

You simply have no idea what you're talking about saying there are "basically only three freeways" in the city. There are eight. There is no subjectivity here, and it is not debatable.


Quote:
The other ones you're citing are little connectors or not relevant to a discussion of urban land use.
The 427 is the third busiest freeway in North America (http://www.cyclopaedia.es/wiki/Ontario_Highway_427), and connects the airport to the 401 and Gardiner/QEW. It runs through dense areas lined with highrises on both sides. How is it not relevant to a discussion of urban land use?
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  #88  
Old Posted Aug 7, 2014, 9:40 PM
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NorthernDancer - Just so you know, Crawford is never wrong. About anything. Ever.

It's like talking to a toaster.
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  #89  
Old Posted Aug 7, 2014, 11:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthernDancer View Post

Freeways in the CITY OF TORONTO:

Gardiner Expressway
DVP
404
427
409
401
400
Allen Expressway

That's 8 freeways to serve 2.7 million people, or about 1 freeway for every 340,000 people or so. That's probably about the same number of freeways per capita as large American cities like NY, Chicago, and LA
At the very best there are 7, as the 404 and DVP are the same freeway.

Also the Allen and 409 may be expressways, but at a couple km a piece they hardly strengthen the argument.

3 freeways is flat out wrong, but so is 8. In reality the city of Toronto is served by 5 freeways that actually really matter.
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  #90  
Old Posted Aug 7, 2014, 11:42 PM
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Originally Posted by kool maudit View Post
people are free to dislike places. you don't have to be a credentialed authority to deliver a negative opinion. the word "hater" bespeaks a generational problem.
There is a difference however between deciding that you personally dislike a place and taking it upon yourself to write an article claiming that its inhabitants will have unfulfilling lives until they follow your drive-by advice. Imagine the mindset you have to be in to write something like that and believe that it is valuable and constructive (presumably they thought this).

When you take a step back and place a lot of their comments in context they start to look pretty clueless. There's far less surface parking in most large Canadian downtown cores than there was circa 1990, for example. I expect that this trend will continue regardless of how many tourists write articles about how much better Canada would be if it naively imitated Danish urban planning practices.
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  #91  
Old Posted Aug 8, 2014, 12:53 AM
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I don't know why people are so upset? Is the article a little overdone? Yes it is.

But they do make a point. Despite pretty good public transit networks, considering the development and suburbs they serve, many Canadian cities still need to do better than they are in alternative transport.

Canadian's do drive a lot and for a lot of trips that could be completed by alternate modes, if those modes were more attractive.
Canada as a whole is making good strides in promoting and building for alternative transport options. But I don't think we should be upset that someone pointed out that we still have a long way to go.
If we are not challenged, how will we ever improve?
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  #92  
Old Posted Aug 8, 2014, 2:34 AM
NorthernDancer NorthernDancer is offline
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There are eight. You can debate over which ones "matter", which is subjective, but there are eight.
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  #93  
Old Posted Aug 8, 2014, 3:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miketoronto View Post
I don't know why people are so upset? Is the article a little overdone? Yes it is.

But they do make a point. Despite pretty good public transit networks, considering the development and suburbs they serve, many Canadian cities still need to do better than they are in alternative transport.

Canadian's do drive a lot and for a lot of trips that could be completed by alternate modes, if those modes were more attractive.
Canada as a whole is making good strides in promoting and building for alternative transport options. But I don't think we should be upset that someone pointed out that we still have a long way to go.
If we are not challenged, how will we ever improve?
The way I see it, it's like a stranger coming up to you on the street and saying that you're fat and should exercise more. You're very aware of this, but it still pisses you off that some nobody said this. The author seemed to just label their country's urban landscape as objectively better than ours, apparently not understanding that things are different in different parts of the world.
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  #94  
Old Posted Aug 8, 2014, 6:01 PM
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Originally Posted by GlassCity View Post
The way I see it, it's like a stranger coming up to you on the street and saying that you're fat and should exercise more.
Yes, exactly. This would be wrong because it assumes that:

a. the person is fat because they don't exercise
b. the person can exercise but they don't want to
c. the person doesn't exercise a lot

They ignore other reasons why someone may be overweight, such as:

a. genetics
b. the built environment
c. alcoholism
d. depression
e. pregnacy

And so on.

That's the same problem with these ladies. It's not wrong to say Canada is too car dependent, it's what they describe as the solutions that's wrong. Does Canada really have a serious problem with car culture, or excess freeways and parking, even in our downtowns?

They are tourists, and it is a European perspective, so I can understand why they write the things they do. But I also think you all should know better than to simply accept their words, or respond with equally hyperbolic questions like "why people are so upset?" just because someone dares to criticize their criticisms.
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  #95  
Old Posted Aug 9, 2014, 11:17 PM
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Coincidentally, Google Maps was just updated with some new aerial imagery for some Canadian cities. Here's the view of Halifax's downtown area. It's a matter of opinion I guess whether this qualifies as vast swaths of parking, but it is pretty pedestrian-friendly since the streets are narrow, the blocks are short, and there's a lot of stuff packed into a small area. There's also a lot of new construction happening so I think the city will be better in a few years as surface parking is replaced with more buildings.

Halifax doesn't actually have any highways in the urban core. There is an interchange that was designed for a highway that was never built but the city is planning to tear it down. That will provide a big opportunity to improve the downtown area.


maps.google.com
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  #96  
Old Posted Aug 12, 2014, 12:02 PM
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In other words, that couple wants us to be more like Danes without bothering to understand why car culture is so prevalent here. Canada isn't a tiny speck of a country like Denmark and predictably this country developed quite differently. Cars have always been more of a necessity in Canada, and by extension, far more deeply rooted in our culture.

Expecting Canada to be like Denmark is ridiculous and insinuating that Canada isn't a sustainable 1st world nation due to our love of the automobile is both condescending and off the mark. Canada is far more self sufficient in practically every product segment than Denmark. In our city cores, we have the density to make transit viable. In these places car ownership and use it quite low.

I live in downtown Toronto, gave up my car, and walk everywhere.... but that couple can go buzz off. Do we go to Denmark and complain about all the bicycles and tell Danes they should be more like Canada?
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  #97  
Old Posted Aug 12, 2014, 8:50 PM
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On a nation wide basis transit use at least for work trips in Canada is about the same or slightly higher than France in mode share percentage.

What kills Canada is the walk/bike share percentages and non work trip percentages for transit use. This is where we perform worse than European countries.

On a nation wide basis including rural areas, 12% of Canadian's take transit to work. This is of course higher in cities. France is also in the 10 - 12% range.
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  #98  
Old Posted Aug 18, 2014, 6:26 AM
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I think the letter if fake!
Quote:
An open letter to the people who hold power and responsibility in Canada,

My girlfriend and I (Danish) were tourists in your country for 5 weeks this summer. We had the most incredible adventure and met the most wonderful Canadians, who welcomed us warmly into their homes. Apart from these people, who sincerely do your nation credit, our overwhelming memory of Canada is one of cars, traffic, parking and the related obesity and unfulfilled communities. It is an impression that we have since shared with other tourists who have visited Canada.

Before arriving in Canada we had a genuine impression of a clean, healthy and sustainable first world country. Upon arrival in Toronto we were horrified to see great oceans of car parks deserting the landscape and 12 lane high ways, rammed packed with huge SUVs, with people going no where. A greater shock came when we discovered that this kind of infrastructure is not reserved just for the sprawl surrounding towns and cities but that highways actually run through city centres too. As humans trying to enjoy Canada’s major cities (Toronto, Montreal, Quebec City, Ottawa and Halifax) we were treated like second class citizens compared to cars. The air was dirty, and the constant noise from horns and engines was unpleasant.

An observation that was especially noticeable in Halifax was the sheer amount of land in the city centre given to parking. Ginormous swaths of prime locations for living (parks, shops, cafés, market squares, theatres, playing fields etc – human activities which are key to quality of life) concreted over as homes for an ever increasing number of SUVs (most trucks and SUVs we saw contained only one person. The most SUVs we saw in a row were full of singular people driving through Tim Hortens). We asked the Canadians that we met how they felt living in such a car culture, here are a few of their responses:

- ‘Trying to solve traffic problems by building more roads is like trying to solve obesity by buying bigger trousers.’ Ottawa

- ‘It’s only 10km to my work place. I would love to cycle, it would only take 30 minutes but it is simply not possible. I don’t feel safe. Instead I park and sweat, meaning after 25 minutes stuck in traffic I drive my car to the gym and waste another 25 minutes of time I could spend with my family.’ Quebec City

- ‘I hate cars in the city so much that I actually find myself slowing down as I cross the road, in a tiny effort to exert my authority as a human being over all that metal.’ Toronto

- ‘It seems to me that birds fly, fish swim and humans walk. Except in North America where you are expected to drive-everywhere. You wouldn’t put a fish in a submarine!’ Montreal

- ‘I am obese. My children are overweight and most of the people who live around here. I am surrounded by fast food chains, car parks and highways. I would love to ditch the car. My neighbourhood doesn’t even have sidewalks.’ Levis

As we explored more of the country we tried to console ourselves that at least a few cities were making an effort to make life liveable for humans – small local businesses, cycle infrastructure and pedestrianised streets. However, it felt like a token gesture rather than a genuine effort to make Canada a healthy, happy and sustainable country. Pedestrians were squeezed onto narrow pavements and forced to stop every 100m to cross the road, bike lanes were little more than paint on the ground for the cyclists to help protect the parked cars lining every street. We heard that the mayor of Toronto, Rob Ford, is actually tearing up bicycle lanes to make way for more cars!

Walking and cycling are human activities that bring great life, health and economy to communities. Streets that prioritise cars over humans are bad for business, bad for health (mental, social and physical), unsafe and break down communities. I write this letter to appeal to you to take radical steps to transform Canada into the healthy, happy and sustainable country we were expecting. You are a nation of the most fantastic people, we know because we met them everywhere! As citizens they deserve much, much better. Come on Canada! When tourists visit Canada make sure they remember it for for its parks rather than parking.

Sincerely yours,
Holly Chabowski
Denmark
There's absolutely nothing in that letter that to me makes it sounds like it's written by a Dane ( as if the name "Holly Chabowski" didn't make that pretty clear to begin with ) - sounds like it's written by a person from North America to me ( native in English and using terms and expressions and gramma you wouldn't see from a Dane )

So I'm guessing that if they are indeed from "Denmark" it must be some of the small cities of that name located in either the US or Canada ( I'm guessing the latter ) and why they used Denmark as a place of supposed origin is probable because they don't know anything about it ( Denmark is as sprawly as it comes - Copenhagen itself has a lower pop density than Los Angeles and only the Norwegians beats us in single family homes afaik )

I'm not going to say we don't have good bike and PT infrasturture here in inner cities - but that doesn't mean the car isn't the obvious choice for most transportation around the nation ( why the Government pays for one's gas when commuting to and from one's job ) anyone spending a bit on Google maps can see just how autocentric we are


Danes visiting North America will likely be supprised by the inner city parking lots and vehicle sizes, but by no means shocked - after all we do have TV ( with lot sof US and Canadian made TV shows ), motorways and suburban lifestyle here - it's not like we expect Canada to be a forest filled with Mooses and lumberjacks..

So to me the letter looks like it's fake - most likely written by a local Canadian wishing for change and hoping ( and apperently succeeding ) that pretending to be foreign would get more attention..


Edit: I did a search - there's no person of that name in the entire Kingdom..
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  #99  
Old Posted Aug 18, 2014, 2:33 PM
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Originally Posted by FREKI View Post
I think the letter if fake!


There's absolutely nothing in that letter that to me makes it sounds like it's written by a Dane ( as if the name "Holly Chabowski" didn't make that pretty clear to begin with ) - sounds like it's written by a person from North America to me ( native in English and using terms and expressions and gramma you wouldn't see from a Dane )

So I'm guessing that if they are indeed from "Denmark" it must be some of the small cities of that name located in either the US or Canada ( I'm guessing the latter ) and why they used Denmark as a place of supposed origin is probable because they don't know anything about it ( Denmark is as sprawly as it comes - Copenhagen itself has a lower pop density than Los Angeles and only the Norwegians beats us in single family homes afaik )

I'm not going to say we don't have good bike and PT infrasturture here in inner cities - but that doesn't mean the car isn't the obvious choice for most transportation around the nation ( why the Government pays for one's gas when commuting to and from one's job ) anyone spending a bit on Google maps can see just how autocentric we are


Danes visiting North America will likely be supprised by the inner city parking lots and vehicle sizes, but by no means shocked - after all we do have TV ( with lot sof US and Canadian made TV shows ), motorways and suburban lifestyle here - it's not like we expect Canada to be a forest filled with Mooses and lumberjacks..

So to me the letter looks like it's fake - most likely written by a local Canadian wishing for change and hoping ( and apperently succeeding ) that pretending to be foreign would get more attention..


Edit: I did a search - there's no person of that name in the entire Kingdom..
I believe the author is a British person who lives as an expat or something in Copenhagen with her Danish girlfriend.
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  #100  
Old Posted Aug 18, 2014, 4:03 PM
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"‘I am obese. My children are overweight and most of the people who live around here. I am surrounded by fast food chains, car parks and highways. I would love to ditch the car. My neighbourhood doesn’t even have sidewalks.’" Levis

Maybe the solution is to buy bigger trousers.
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