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  #21  
Old Posted Jul 9, 2014, 11:32 PM
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Originally Posted by POLA View Post
And there's the rub. You are giving up something to have that car. Namely, cold hard cash!
"Freedom ain't free"

A car brings freedom to explore one surroundings that PT simply doesn't - even if one can technically get to a point with PT the time and effort it takes is usually a lot more than with a car..

I love going to the woods and while PT does cover them here it's still a long trip in terms of time compared to by car and that affects one mentally too..

After we got a car me and my gf goes out to the woods a lot more than when we had to rely on buses and trains to do so..

Now I can be in the nearest woods in less than 15min - by PT that would take me nearly an hour.. that to me is worth a lot of "cold hard cash"
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  #22  
Old Posted Jul 9, 2014, 11:51 PM
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Cars represent freedom for many. One can go anywhere/anytime they want, transport goods and fellow passengers.
Unless they cost more than someone can reasonably afford.
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  #23  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2014, 2:54 AM
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How in the hell did the authors choose the locations for their accessibility maps? I can't figure out that San Francisco locale at all--it's not City Hall, its not downtown...
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  #24  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2014, 3:18 AM
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Originally Posted by ukw View Post

Summary: Public transit is a bit of a waste, given that biking seems more efficient within city limits, while driving is more efficient in the suburbs.
Except for the problem that the more people drive cars, the less efficient both driving and transit becomes, while the more people use transit, the more efficient both transit and driving become.

The more people drive, the worse traffic congestion gets and this slows down both cars and buses, and the lack of transit ridership means there's not enough riders to support a good network with decent frequency. With enough riders there can even be enough to warrant rail infrastructure like subway and commuter rail.

Not to mention that higher car use causes development patterns to become lower density due to the need for wider roads and space for parking. And lower density means greater distances to travel, aka the need for more powered transportation. And the lower the density, the harder it is to cover by transit.

Summary: High automobile use is a waste since except for slight gains with carpooling, they get less and less efficient (in terms of infrastructure, space, and energy cost) with greater numbers of travelers.
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  #25  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2014, 3:24 AM
Leo the Dog Leo the Dog is offline
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Originally Posted by POLA View Post
Exactly, it's the "perception of free" that makes people choose cars. Once someone owns a car, they think of every trip they make as free without realizing that the costs associated with owning a car. Seriously, if you think cars are so great and represent "freedom" that still doesn't make a case for owning a car, but rather that there should be better taxi service and more short term rentals made easy (a la zipcar).
People (responsible ones) know what the cost of operating a vehicle is and it's silly to think they they wouldn't. Taxis are the most expensive mode of transportation. $3 flag drop plus $3.50/mile. May as well own a car.

I never said cars were cost free, I said they represent freedom to many...As in, no reliance on unreliable public transportation. There's no Sunday schedule for cars. Try taking the subway to the mountains to go hike/camp. Try hauling groceries for a family of 4 on a crowded bus with no seating.

Time is money. I'd rather spend a lil more money upfront to drive a vehicle than rely on public transportation that would quadruple my commute time every single day.
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  #26  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2014, 3:27 AM
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Unless they cost more than someone can reasonably afford.
Of course. Therefore they should not purchase a car, but maybe they'll strive to own a car someday by working more to save to purchase in the future.
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  #27  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2014, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by 240glt View Post
If it weren't for him driving anyways, I would take the bus. It stops just down the block from our house and lands me right at my office door 20 minutes later. He works funny hours sometimes so I take the bus 2-3 times a week, I don't mind it except when I liss it by 30 seconds, and I have to wait 15 minutes for the next one. That's irritating, and in the winter I'd rather not do it. I'd also consider biking however with no shower or changing facilities (we are working on that though) it makes it unpleasant given the dip down & then back up out of the river valley to get to downtown.
Buses only come every 15 minutes (especially since I am assuming this is during rush hour)? That is not good transit service. That's quite bad, actually.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo the Dog View Post
People (responsible ones) know what the cost of operating a vehicle is and it's silly to think they they wouldn't. Taxis are the most expensive mode of transportation. $3 flag drop plus $3.50/mile. May as well own a car.

I never said cars were cost free, I said they represent freedom to many...As in, no reliance on unreliable public transportation. There's no Sunday schedule for cars. Try taking the subway to the mountains to go hike/camp. Try hauling groceries for a family of 4 on a crowded bus with no seating.

Time is money. I'd rather spend a lil more money upfront to drive a vehicle than rely on public transportation that would quadruple my commute time every single day.
Where do you live that there is no traffic and you can find cheap and easy parking everywhere you go? Again, I don't think your situation is applicable here.

I have a grocery store one block from my house, and another another 3 blocks away. We also have delivery groceries. I live in a household of 3 and we don't go through that many groceries anyways. And, I prefer fresh so I shop several times a week. Where are ya'll living that you don't have a grocery close? Not an urban area I guess.

Public transportation is quite reliable where I live. And really, the main point is that it's cool to own and operate a car if your financial situation is straight. You (not you Leo, other people) got a 100k in your brokerage account? Own a house or other assets? Cool, go enjoy your car. But if you don't have a lot of money stashed you better save that 8k a year from car ownership. Even just do it for a few years and you will have a nice roth IRA or a downpayment for a house. We are quite comfortable and car free by choice. But it kills me when people can barely afford their rent, have CC debt etc and talk about how they need their car (short of some rural area where it is ABSOLUTELY necessary).

And bet you won't ever see me on the side of the road getting a dui test or any member of my family being injured in a car accident (number one cause of death for toddlers)

Last edited by Eightball; Jul 10, 2014 at 1:30 PM.
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  #28  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2014, 2:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse View Post
Except for the problem that the more people drive cars, the less efficient both driving and transit becomes, while the more people use transit, the more efficient both transit and driving become.

The more people drive, the worse traffic congestion gets and this slows down both cars and buses, and the lack of transit ridership means there's not enough riders to support a good network with decent frequency. With enough riders there can even be enough to warrant rail infrastructure like subway and commuter rail.

Not to mention that higher car use causes development patterns to become lower density due to the need for wider roads and space for parking. And lower density means greater distances to travel, aka the need for more powered transportation. And the lower the density, the harder it is to cover by transit.

Summary: High automobile use is a waste since except for slight gains with carpooling, they get less and less efficient (in terms of infrastructure, space, and energy cost) with greater numbers of travelers.
Thank you. I totally agree.

Also I want say that if someone enjoys traveling by car instead of by transit or other sustainable modes (if available), then good for you, the more power to you.

But if you're an environmentalist or someone that advocates for green/earth friendly products but chooses not to ride transit/bikes-- just don't say anything, sshh! It's like Dr. Phil, an overweight "doctor" writing a diet book to lose weight or someone that claims to be non-judgemental but criticizes everyone.

Last edited by Perklol; Jul 11, 2014 at 9:12 AM.
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  #29  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2014, 3:53 PM
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what nobody likes is a 40 mile commute in shitty trafffic. everybody likes rolling down to the beach in their cool car though. its just a matter of how the tool is used. reliance on a vehicle because you live far away from services is where you get into trouble, hence we are mostly urbanists around here and dont have that problem. ive found skateboards with big cushy wheels fill the gap between cycling and walking distances. its walking that sucks, not driving.
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  #30  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2014, 8:35 PM
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Buses only come every 15 minutes (especially since I am assuming this is during rush hour)? That is not good transit service. That's quite bad, actually.
Yes, our bus service is generally quite poor. I am right on the cross town route that takes me from home to my office downtown, the run itself is quite good but the frequency is terrible. We just moved to this house (50's inner suburbs) last year. Prior to that we lived in my old house (wartime inner city) which I currently rent out, it is a four minute walk to our LRT, and a 3 minute ride to my office. When transit was easy and convenient I used it all the time (and still owned two cars) now that transit is inconvenient, I use it a lot less.


Quote:
Where are ya'll living that you don't have a grocery close? Not an urban area I guess.
I've still got a grocery, dry cleaners, coffee shop, health store a two minute walk from the house in a little strip mall down the street. Good enough to pick up something for dinner or what have you.

Quote:
Public transportation is quite reliable where I live. And really, the main point is that it's cool to own and operate a car if your financial situation is straight. You (not you Leo, other people) got a 100k in your brokerage account? Own a house or other assets? Cool, go enjoy your car. But if you don't have a lot of money stashed you better save that 8k a year from car ownership. Even just do it for a few years and you will have a nice roth IRA or a downpayment for a house. We are quite comfortable and car free by choice. But it kills me when people can barely afford their rent, have CC debt etc and talk about how they need their car (short of some rural area where it is ABSOLUTELY necessary).
Being car free is just fine too, but it is silly when people use it as a badge of honour. We're not rich by any means, but very comfortably well off, and we can afford two cars (plus I have a vintage Volvo as my summer toy.. but I don't even count that one, it gets driven maybe a thousand k's a year) Obviously some people can't. But I'd bet that the vast majority of the cars on the road are owned by people who are not one paycheque away from living on the street.

Where did you get that $8k figure from ? While you can spend that, or a lot more on a car per year, you can also spend a lot less.


Quote:
And bet you won't ever see me on the side of the road getting a dui test or any member of my family being injured in a car accident (number one cause of death for toddlers)

I've never had a DUI either. And those who know us, know that we definitely like to drink That one just falls under "responsibility".. and I know plenty irresponsible of car-less people too, just like I know irresponsible people who own cars

It boils down to money and time. I can go out and make more money, but there is no way for me to make more time. So time is the more valuable commodity, to me anyways. Having a car may not save any money, but it saves a tonne of time. So that would be the answer to the question posed in the header of this thread
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  #31  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2014, 8:38 PM
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I hardly think that these maps can be taken as a literal illustration of the comparative advantage of car travel, as the article implies. This would only be true under the assumption that each person travels to every area of his city with equal probability; however, this is almost never true. For any of those maps, I'm sure that most of the red areas are unlikely destinations to begin with. For example, the average Philadelphian is much more likely to be traveling to Center City than to the Northeast or Southwest Philadelphia. The fact that a car will get you somewhere the fastest is meaningless if you wouldn't go there anyway.
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  #32  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2014, 9:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Muji View Post
I hardly think that these maps can be taken as a literal illustration of the comparative advantage of car travel, as the article implies. This would only be true under the assumption that each person travels to every area of his city with equal probability; however, this is almost never true. For any of those maps, I'm sure that most of the red areas are unlikely destinations to begin with. For example, the average Philadelphian is much more likely to be traveling to Center City than to the Northeast or Southwest Philadelphia. The fact that a car will get you somewhere the fastest is meaningless if you wouldn't go there anyway.
Agreed.

Analysis of information concerning movement is "viewed from above, down" at a 2 dimensional map where movement is confined to defined space.

The easiest way to get information is through data mining, however, data mining is limited by the availability of research material at what cost, and, by the amount of material that is unavailable to the person data mining, due to user costs, firewalls and passwords.

Cars provide freedom of movement unequaled in human history. For the first and only time in human history masses of people have the freedom to choose where they wish to go in real time ("Do I want to go here, nah!")

Cars (almost always) provide protection from the weather.
Cars provide the maximum transportation freedom for the physically handicapped.
Cars provide many of the elderly with mobility in excess of 100 meters.
Cars provide private places to talk to lovers, friends, children, and, spouses.
Cars provide small groups of people with a shared intimacy. Think vacations with the family.

These truths are undeniable.

The issue, IMO, over the next couple of decades will be that a significant portion of the population of adults will not be able to afford to drive cars. I believe that the PERCENTAGE of the population who will not be able afford to drive a car might double or even triple by 2035.

While that statement sounds threatening, the percent of people who will use cars will still be close to 70% of those who are of age and healthy enough to drive.

Will the new users like having to use public transportation? Most will not like the change, and very likely will be ashamed for months about HAVING to use buses, and steel rail public transportation.

The vast majority of those who have grown up with and around private automobiles will never WANT to stand in a crowded vehicle, smell people they would rather not, and, avoid eye contact.

I just believe that this change in the US transportation mix is inevitable as a result of fundamental changes that continue in the Nation's economy

How soon will related Black Swans hit? How much damage will occur to the economy as a result is anyone's a guess. However, too much information defining debt service risk is being published to believe a serious reduction in the wealth of most people will NOT occur. Such reductions will force people to drive less, or not at all, when the choice is between driving and food. Most people would rather eat well, and, drive less than almost starve and drive cars. (even at $10.00 lb of 95% lean, not driving a car could buy a lot of higher quality hamburger per month.)

I therefore believe that the US really has no choice, but to deal with a weaker economy and become less POV dependent. What we will build will steadily become more efficient, less dramatic, and more Spartan than similar facilities being built outside the US.

Hopefully, we will not have to use a laser transit and straight line demolish after acquiring property via imminent domain. All depends on how long before we react with purpose.

Nothing idealist about it.
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  #33  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2014, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Leo the Dog View Post
Taxis are the most expensive mode of transportation. $3 flag drop plus $3.50/mile. May as well own a car.
No, a brand new car is still more expensive then using taxis/zipcars/PT. Not only are cars expensive they cost you even when you don't use them. That car in your garage is slowly depreciating while you sleep.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo the Dog View Post
Try taking the subway to the mountains to go hike/camp.
Again, if you live in the a suburban style city, fine. But if you live in a transit rich city, rent a car. No one in New York should own a car because of that occasional "trip the mountains."

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Originally Posted by Wizened Variations View Post
Cars provide freedom of movement unequaled in human history
I'd like to take this oft-repeated statement to task. I think we mistake speed for freedom. What exactly does “freedom” mean when we talk about mobility? I would argue that what this means is the removal of barriers to one’s mobility. Barriers can exist physically (a wall) and conceptually (private property). I think it is safe to say that time and money are also barriers that can limit our movement. So, while a car extends the range in which one can move, it comes at the cost of other barriers such as the fact that driving requires one have a car in the first place, drive on certain roads, obey certain laws, etc. Not exactly “freedom”. I would say that the only form of mobility that is truly free is walking. If you can’t walk from one side of your city to the other safely, then you are not truly free.
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  #34  
Old Posted Jul 10, 2014, 11:03 PM
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Originally Posted by rcdc
yes, when the weather isn't too hot, cold, raining, snowy, windy, etc.
Yes, when you're youngish, fit and don't have children
yes, when you're not carrying anything heavy or bulky
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Originally Posted by Via Chicago View Post
+1

id love to live in a city where i can bike year round but thats just not realistic here. and yes i realize there are die hards here that do it but im not quite that insane.
Wait, its not possible to bike during the winter? Really?

https://flic.kr/p/94ahsQ

https://flic.kr/p/7ovS8n

https://flic.kr/p/4zfqtG
sorry, I cant properly encode the images now.

pics courtesy of Colville-Anderson of copenhagenize.com

They also have studded snow tires for bicycles!
http://www.biketiresdirect.com/search/studded-tires
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  #35  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2014, 12:06 AM
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I bike whenever reasonable.

That means when I'm working those ridiculously insane days at the office where I get there at 4 am and don't leave until 8pm, I'm driving my goddamn car.

I love riding my bike to work because it's 20 minute ride on relatively flat land and it's nice to get exercise, but it's not always realistic to do so and I feel no shame in driving to work when it's necessary and/or convenient.

Also I drive a 13 year old Honda that runs like a dream and requires little to no maintenance. Sure insurance and registration fees suck, but in reality, my time is worth money, and cars allow me to get places faster, it's always a trade off, and it's one I'm willing to make. Nothing in this world is free, and it really depends on how much you value your own time whether or not you're a public transportation die hard. Personally, I prefer to not spend cumulative months of my life waiting for buses and trains. I use public transit when it makes sense. Am I going to be out drinking? then public transit is a great option. Am I going to an event where parking is going to be onerous and/or expensive? once again, PT makes sense. Am I going out to Tomales Bay to eat some delicious oysters and enjoy nature? Fuck the bus I'm driving my goddamn car.
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  #36  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2014, 12:21 AM
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unless you live in a uber dense, top tier metro, owning a car is usually no big deal in the city. and some new cars are cheap. a 2014 ford fiesta S goes for 14k. big deal. being able to electively use (or not use) a vehicle is a great situation. setting yourself up to rely on it because you live too far away from services is the bad choice.
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  #37  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2014, 12:35 AM
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Originally Posted by gtbassett View Post
I bike whenever reasonable.

That means when I'm working those ridiculously insane days at the office where I get there at 4 am and don't leave until 8pm, I'm driving my goddamn car.
Obviously there are some scenarios where it isn't convenient to bike. I never cared for biking in pouring down rain with 50 mph winds. But what exactly is it about an odd work schedule that makes biking so onerous? Your region have a shortage of bike lights or something?
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Last edited by Nouvellecosse; Jul 11, 2014 at 9:14 PM.
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  #38  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2014, 12:41 AM
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How in the hell did the authors choose the locations for their accessibility maps? I can't figure out that San Francisco locale at all--it's not City Hall, its not downtown...
The San Francisco map is baffling. How are they getting to the western end of Balboa fastest by transit? I've ridden the 31 many times - using their methodology I don't understand how that trolleybus could be "faster" than a car.
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  #39  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2014, 8:40 AM
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I think a lot of people here are making this out to be a lot more of a false dilemma than it really is. First off, if you live in the US outside of the maybe 3-4 cities with good public transit you are going to need a car if you want to be able to get most places. However there is a big difference between needing a car and ALWAYS using a car. For example, if it's a nice day you can walk or bike to close location with no hassle (it's not as though a bike is any significant expense even if you only use it a few months a year). The same is true for public transit in the area. If it's not that good then there are likely many places it can't get you, but there are also likely many places it CAN get you and you can use it to get to those places instead of driving. I don't think it's viable at all to tell people not to own a car, but I do think it's viable to tell them to only use it when they have to.
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  #40  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2014, 1:21 PM
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I haven't owned a car in 5 years. I walk, bike and take transit everywhere. I rent a car when I need one. But eventually I'd like to get a car just to have. This would allow me to take trips easier to far places. But I'd rarely ever use it in the city like most of my friends here in chicago.
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