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  #21  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2017, 8:27 PM
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since someone brought up Milton, ON:

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Milton, Ontario is Canada's fastest-growing community and a place of opportunity for families, individuals, visitors and investors.
how corporate can you get. who are these investors, I wonder?

Milton from google maps

not a suburban paradise??
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  #22  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2017, 9:57 PM
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Yeah just ignore my point about Milton's density and multifamily housing and just judge it based on a vague aerial picture, and without even comparing it to other places. There plenty of places even just in the Toronto area that are worse than Milton (e.g. Bolton, Georgetown, Lorne Park), but you just want to see everything as either black or white, more power to you. Maybe there is no point trying to reason with you.

North York from google maps

Not a suburban paradise?
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  #23  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2017, 11:16 PM
NorthernDancer NorthernDancer is offline
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Maybe there is no point trying to reason with you.
We learned that long ago.
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  #24  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2017, 4:43 AM
llamaorama llamaorama is offline
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Not Canada, but many fast growing US cities which are largely suburban and decentralized also have booming downtowns. Austin is very suburban, but it's central areas are very important to the whole region's identity and desirability as a place to live. SXSW would never be held in Round Rock. IMO, I think we need to get past the city vs. suburb culture war and consider how the greater metro area benefits when it can accommodate a diversity of places for different kinds of people. There is definitely value in being well-rounded.

Usually smart growth does not mean traditional single family neighborhoods are being banned or sacrified, usually it means that everything else like strip malls and apartments are reconfigured into town centers surrounded by lower density homes with yards. There will always be people who want to rent an apartment. Traditional suburban land use planning doesn't handle the inclusion of multifamily very well. A lot of suburban municipalities zone to keep rental apartments out, or push them into isolated areas. And when they do exist they are complex-style communities that aren't necessarily attractive. Smart growth on the other hand usually means a suburb will include multifamily zoned areas in its plans, as a part of a main street area or a small satellite downtown or neigborhood hub. Urban, even faux urban, apartment developments such as townhome style buildings fronting a street, are usually more attractive and more contemporary than 1970's complexes. And they will age better because they are more open, more modifiable, safer, etc.
Quote:

- Though we have “ethnic enclaves” such as Brampton, Ont., and Surrey, B.C., they are neither exclusive nor cut off from the surrounding community or society. This helps explains why suburban politics is so fluid here. “There’s hope in Canada; we’re not as dug in as the Americans on the blue-red thing,” Prof. Gordon says. “It’s possible for any centrist politician to craft a platform to win in the suburbs.”
What does "centrist" actually mean in this context, and why does immigrant enclaves relate to partisan politics anyways?

A lot of times "centrist" turns out to be some kind of politically correct business conservative. Not someone who actually considers both sides and has a pragmatic opinion.

The problem with the centrist label is that there is more than one axis in the political spectrum. Being socially liberal but fiscally conservative is not some clever compromise between left liberals and right conservatives, it is its own distinct orientation that occupies its very own corner of the graph. You could also be socially conservative but economically left, is that also centrist? See the problem?

Quote:
not a suburban paradise??
Check out the street patterns of those suburban neighborhoods. It's a fused grid layout. There are few cul-de-sacs. Each area inside of the higher order arterials has many ways in and out. Look at the placement of the parks within each residential area. Notice the inclusion of attached housing and multifamily. Also lots are small, there are small setbacks between homes and the street and other homes.

That is better planning than most suburbs. You could probably ride a bike somewhere inside of that area. A bus route might work. In the long term those strip malls fronting the bigger roads could give way to bigger development.

Compare it to this:

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.8252.../data=!3m1!1e3
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  #25  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2017, 6:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doady View Post
Yeah just ignore my point about Milton's density and multifamily housing and just judge it based on a vague aerial picture, and without even comparing it to other places.
Auto-oriented suburban sprawl isn't inherenly"better" if you build apartments on farm fields or pack McMansions two inches apart. If anything, it's worse, because you have the worst of both worlds, and the zoning isn't limiting the crap.

Canada has much more authoritative regional planning and restrictions on "regular" suburban sprawl but it isn't clear how that contradicts the article's claims. Wouldn't that pretty much support the contention that growth is concentrated on the periphery? If you had super-NIMBY, scattershot-type development, there would be much less growth on the periphery.
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  #26  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2017, 6:14 AM
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Originally Posted by dc_denizen View Post
Also, the latter point I think it has more to do with immigrants to Canada being mostly middle class, and often from commonwealth countries with ties to the UK.
Immigrants to Canada do tend to be wealthier and better educated than those that go to the US but the last point hasn't been true for decades. Canada and the US draw from every corner of the world. Immigrants to the US are more heavily skewed to latin America while immigrants to Canada are more heavily skewed to Asia.
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  #27  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2017, 9:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by llamaorama View Post
Check out the street patterns of those suburban neighborhoods. It's a fused grid layout. There are few cul-de-sacs. Each area inside of the higher order arterials has many ways in and out. Look at the placement of the parks within each residential area. Notice the inclusion of attached housing and multifamily. Also lots are small, there are small setbacks between homes and the street and other homes.

That is better planning than most suburbs. You could probably ride a bike somewhere inside of that area. A bus route might work. In the long term those strip malls fronting the bigger roads could give way to bigger development.

Compare it to this:

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.8252.../data=!3m1!1e3
Frisco, TX and Plano, TX (Dallas suburbs) seem similar to these Toronto burbs. That Atlanta suburb is an outlier in how these new areas are developed in most US exurbs these days. (and Atlanta was always an outlier with its massive lots and forested leapfrog sprawl).

Frisco, TX

vs

Brampton, ON

of course nobody on SSP is extolling Dallas suburbia.
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  #28  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2017, 9:52 PM
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Compare the population density of Frisco vs. Brampton and the difference is immediately obvious.
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  #29  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2017, 11:35 PM
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Brampton gets a slight boost from a growing 40% south Asian population (large families, basement apartments w/ inlaws and grandparents, etc) and a couple of areas like this.

otherwise Plano+Frisco+Arlington TX+Irving TX (newer, sort-of master planned Dallas suburbs) look very similar tom Brampton. Relentlessly modern exurban/suburban (with plenty of new multifamily thrown in, it should be said).

do you disagree? IMO if this area is 'urbanizing', you could make the same statement about Frisco or Plano or any number of newer suburbs across the sun belt.

this is not dense multi-family development
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  #30  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2017, 12:07 AM
NorthernDancer NorthernDancer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dc_denizen View Post
Brampton gets a slight boost from a growing 40% south Asian population (large families, basement apartments w/ inlaws and grandparents, etc) and a couple of areas like this.

otherwise Plano+Frisco+Arlington TX+Irving TX (newer, sort-of master planned Dallas suburbs) look very similar tom Brampton. Relentlessly modern exurban/suburban (with plenty of new multifamily thrown in, it should be said).

do you disagree? IMO if this area is 'urbanizing', you could make the same statement about Frisco or Plano or any number of newer suburbs across the sun belt.

this is not dense multi-family development

Again, look at the density. Brampton is not only way denser than Frisco, it's probably denser than any city in Texas period.

If population density doesn't do it for you, look at other stats. As of the 2011 census (2016 numbers aren't out yet), Brampton had a public transit commute share of 10.8%. I wouldn't be surprised if that's higher than any city in Texas as well. Or look at the percentage of housing units that are in 5+ story buildings.
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  #31  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2017, 12:16 AM
NorthernDancer NorthernDancer is offline
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Originally Posted by dc_denizen View Post

this is not dense multi-family development
That's not even Brampton Funny coincidence though, I have friends that live in theat neighbourhood.
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  #32  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2017, 12:19 AM
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it's denser yes (for the reasons I mentioned, regarding south Asian family sizes and a couple of high rises), and bus transit is probably more frequent than in Dallas.

but the fact remains: the built environment is relentlessly suburban (making bus travel an ordeal I imagine) and, from the ground looks exactly the same as the north Dallas suburbs (with more trees).

the amount of 'fronting' and homerism on this site is something to behold...
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  #33  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2017, 12:23 AM
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Originally Posted by dc_denizen View Post
the amount of 'fronting' and homerism on this site is something to behold...


We were arguing about Brampton, and you linked to a Streetview saying "this is not dense multi-family development" that wasn't even Brampton!

You literally cannot get more stupid or ignorant than that! Who cares if that's not "dense multi-family development"? We were talking about Brampton. The area that you showed is not Brampton.
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  #34  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2017, 12:25 AM
NorthernDancer NorthernDancer is offline
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Originally Posted by dc_denizen View Post
making bus travel an ordeal I imagine
Stick to statistics or places you have first-hand experience with rather than Google Maps or what you "imagine". You're making an absolute fool of yourself.

And quit linking to Caledon as evidence that Brampton is not dense multi-family development. Or maybe you were hoping no one would notice the area you linked to is not Brampton?

You're judging places based on Google Maps and accusing others of "homerism" and "fronting". That's hilarious. If you think Brampton and Frisco are in any way similar, back it up with some statistics. Not your opinion based on Google Maps/Streetview.
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  #35  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2017, 12:28 AM
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Well, it's close enough to Brampton to illustrate my point.

also, I hope you take public transit there when you go visit...
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  #36  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2017, 12:46 AM
NorthernDancer NorthernDancer is offline
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Originally Posted by dc_denizen View Post
Well, it's close enough to Brampton to illustrate my point.
No. You linked to an area other than Brampton hoping no one would notice. Unfortnately for you, the rest of us are a lot smarter than you.

Your insistence that Brampton is in any way similar to Frisco has not been backed up be a single statistic. Your entire life experience seems to be based on Google Maps. I suggest you get out and see the world rather than exploring it through Google Maps.

You also say that Brampton has a "couple" of highrises. It has 69 completed buildings of 12 stories or more.

If you have proof that Brampton and Frisco are similar, go ahead and post it. "I would imagine" is not proof, or even evidence. Every available metric shows that they are not remotely similar in density, transit ridership, or any other metric related to their urban form.

Last edited by NorthernDancer; Jun 12, 2017 at 7:35 AM.
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  #37  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2017, 12:49 AM
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Originally Posted by NorthernDancer View Post
If you think Brampton and Frisco are in any way similar, back it up with some statistics. Not your opinion based on Google Maps/Streetview.
Brampton and Frisco are basically the same thing, but Brampton is the Canadian version of new sprawl and Frisco is the U.S. version.

Any differences are basically explained by lower affordability in Canada and stronger Canadian regional planning.
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  #38  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2017, 12:53 AM
NorthernDancer NorthernDancer is offline
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Brampton and Frisco are basically the same thing
Except they aren't similar at all by any metric that measures density, transit ridership, percentage of people living in highrises, etc. They both have cul-de-sacs. That's about where the similarities end.
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  #39  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2017, 3:00 AM
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The maps show Brampton being much denser. Equalize the scale and it's obvious.
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  #40  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2017, 4:24 AM
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Population Density:
Brampton (2016) - 5,772/square mile
Frisco (2017) - 2,682/square mile

Public Transit Commute Share:
Brampton (2011) - 10.8%
Frisco (2015 5-year estimate) - 0.3%

Completed Highrises (12+ stories):
Brampton - 69
Frisco - 1

------

Brampton's transit commuter share is not only many times higher than Frisco, it's more than twice as high as the city of Dallas (4.2%).

Brampton and Frisco are not remotely similar by any metric.
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