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  #801  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2019, 1:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Uhuniau View Post
It makes a great deal of sense for a great many origin-destination pairings even if it doesn't line up with the official planning orthodoxy of either city.
1. Ontario residents who live on the West Side and attend UQAQ
2. Ontario residents who live on the West Side and are affiliated with a Quebec reserve regiment based at the armory.

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  #802  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2019, 2:08 PM
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It makes a great deal of sense for a great many origin-destination pairings even if it doesn't line up with the official planning orthodoxy of either city.
I with you on this.

I don't get why people think this bridge as a transit connection makes no sense. It literally would connect two hubs, when Tache has LRT on it. People in this town are absolutely strange with their notions of transit networks.
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  #803  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2019, 2:10 PM
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If we ran a line that went over the bridge and then turned right on the spur it could service the federal office complexes. That would make it ideal as a route into Hull for commuters from Ottawa. Still not particularly useful for most Gatineau commutere though, which is why it would make most sense as an OC Transpo project.
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  #804  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2019, 2:17 PM
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If we ran a line that went over the bridge and then turned right on the spur it could service the federal office complexes. That would make it ideal as a route into Hull for commuters from Ottawa. Still not particularly useful for most Gatineau commutere though, which is why it would make most sense as an OC Transpo project.
That would be the only value and would have next to zero ridership in off-peak hours.
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  #805  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2019, 2:18 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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If we ran a line that went over the bridge and then turned right on the spur it could service the federal office complexes. That would make it ideal as a route into Hull for commuters from Ottawa. Still not particularly useful for most Gatineau commutere though, which is why it would make most sense as an OC Transpo project.
Or go the other way and build a road bridge to connect at Bayview so the Rapibus can extend to Bayview. And let Gatineau LRT connect to Rideau. This spreads out the transfers.
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  #806  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2019, 2:20 PM
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It makes very little sense as a transit corridor. Gatineau has already committed to BRT for the rail corridor on the Gatineau side. Gatineau has already committed to surface LRT for its next round of transit upgrades and wants (quite justifiably) a more central connection to Ottawa, and Ottawa still hasn't made any long-term decisions on the future of Line 2. Unless any of those things change there is little chance of using the bridge.

Even if something changes, it is unclear that trying to reuse a century old bridge would be cheaper than building a new one nearby.
I agree. To those who think otherwise, what do transport desire lines indicate?

Transferring thousands at Bayview towards downtown will eventually overwhelm the C-Line. Expanding on single track service with low frequencies is a poor substitute for other ideas.
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  #807  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2019, 2:24 PM
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Or go the other way and build a road bridge to connect at Bayview so the Rapibus can extend to Bayview. And let Gatineau LRT connect to Rideau. This spreads out the transfers.
Where is this bus transfer station going to be built? At the expense of TOD at this key location?
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  #808  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2019, 2:32 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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Originally Posted by acottawa View Post
1. Ontario residents who live on the West Side and attend UQAQ
2. Ontario residents who live on the West Side and are affiliated with a Quebec reserve regiment based at the armory.

End of List
3. The umpty-three hundred Ottawans who work in the god-awful fedgov bunkers in Hull.
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  #809  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2019, 2:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Uhuniau View Post
3. The umpty-three hundred Ottawans who work in the god-awful fedgov bunkers in Hull.
There are many of them for sure, but they would be served as well or probably better* served by rapid transit crossing in some way at Chaudière or Portage.

*Since my sense is that more of them live east as opposed to west and southwest. This is anecdotal I admit, but regardless a significant chunk of them from the east and southeast of Ottawa would have to go several km west, in order to come back several km east to Terrasses and Portage.

This has always been the problem with using the POW for rapid transit: it forces too large of a chunk of potential users to backtrack to get to the main destinations we're claiming to serve. (True of both potential Gatineau users and Ottawa users.)
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  #810  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2019, 2:41 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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That would be the only value and would have next to zero ridership in off-peak hours.
OC Transpo designs and policies everything else around peak hours; what's one more thing?

A Hullward extension that terminated at or about Terasses would be place the Museum of Whatever It's Called Under This Government within a 10-min walk of LRT as well. A good chunk of Zibi would be closer to it than to Pimisi. Almost every residence and place of employment on the Island of Hull would be within 1500m. And most importantly, one collision or one two many cm of snow on one of the bridges with bus service wouldn't cripple transit movement across the river any more.
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  #811  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2019, 2:42 PM
Truenorth00 Truenorth00 is offline
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I agree. To those who think otherwise, what do transport desire lines indicate?

Transferring thousands at Bayview towards downtown will eventually overwhelm the C-Line. Expanding on single track service with low frequencies is a poor substitute for other ideas.
Geez. We're back to your FUD? Where's the proof that Bayview transfers are going to "overwhelm" the Confederation Line. Feelings don't count as facts.

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Where is this bus transfer station going to be built? At the expense of TOD at this key location?
A small bus loop is not going to displace lots of TOD. No more than condo visitor lots do. And what this does is separate bus transfers and LRT transfers. Those who are using the Rapibus corridor transfer at Bayview. Those using the Gatineau LRT transfer at Rideau. For anybody from the South working in Gatineau, this would be particularly fantastic. Get a direct bus to virtually anywhere in Gatineau. No additional transfers in downtown Ottawa. This plan would provide a very strong argument to get rid of most STO buses in the downtown core.

The alternative is extending the Trillium Line to Tache or one of the Gatineau LRTs to Bayview. And in all those scenarios, anybody taking the Rapibus corridor anywhere incurs an extra transfer. And all Ottawa riders from the East and West incur an extra transfer.
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  #812  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2019, 2:43 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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I agree. To those who think otherwise, what do transport desire lines indicate?

Transferring thousands at Bayview towards downtown will eventually overwhelm the C-Line. Expanding on single track service with low frequencies is a poor substitute for other ideas.
Who's suggesting that it substitutes for all the other ideas? It stand on its own merit.
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  #813  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2019, 2:46 PM
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*Since my sense is that more of them live east as opposed to west and southwest. This is anecdotal I admit, but regardless a significant chunk of them from the east and southeast of Ottawa would have to go several km west, in order to come back several km east to Terrasses and Portage.

This has always been the problem with using the POW for rapid transit: it forces too large of a chunk of potential users to backtrack to get to the main destinations we're claiming to serve. (True of both potential Gatineau users and Ottawa users.)

The "backtrack" is damn near irrelevant given the speed with which the Confed line can whisk you west to transfer to buses at Lyon or Pimisi or a train at Bayview.

But hey, if backtracking is politically fatal and must be avoided at all costs, can we finally fix bus service along the Rideau-Montreal corridor instead of (A) making it worse, and (B) insisting that everyone east of the Rideau River and north of the Queensway must backtrack to get downtown?
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  #814  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2019, 2:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Truenorth00 View Post
Geez. We're back to your FUD? Where's the proof that Bayview transfers are going to "overwhelm" the Confederation Line. Feelings don't count as facts.



A small bus loop is not going to displace lots of TOD. No more than condo visitor lots do. And what this does is separate bus transfers and LRT transfers. Those who are using the Rapibus corridor transfer at Bayview. Those using the Gatineau LRT transfer at Rideau. For anybody from the South working in Gatineau, this would be particularly fantastic. Get a direct bus to virtually anywhere in Gatineau. No additional transfers in downtown Ottawa. This plan would provide a very strong argument to get rid of most STO buses in the downtown core.
You think rapid transit over the PoW via Bayview would eliminate the need for STO buses in downtown Ottawa?

How is that possible?

Currently Portage to Parliament Hill takes about 5 minutes (almost always less than 10, unless there is an incident). Boarding Line 1 to Bayview, then boarding Line 2 at Bayview towards Hull is going to top that?
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  #815  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2019, 2:48 PM
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There are many of them for sure, but they would be served as well or probably better* served by rapid transit crossing in some way at Chaudière or Portage.

*Since my sense is that more of them live east as opposed to west and southwest. This is anecdotal I admit, but regardless a significant chunk of them from the east and southeast of Ottawa would have to go several km west, in order to come back several km east to Terrasses and Portage.

This has always been the problem with using the POW for rapid transit: it forces too large of a chunk of potential users to backtrack to get to the main destinations we're claiming to serve. (True of both potential Gatineau users and Ottawa users.)
This speak more to why a single transit connection across the river makes no sense. You need at least one on either side of downtown.
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  #816  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2019, 2:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Uhuniau View Post

But hey, if backtracking is politically fatal and must be avoided at all costs, can we finally fix bus service along the Rideau-Montreal corridor instead of (A) making it worse, and (B) insisting that everyone east of the Rideau River and north of the Queensway must backtrack to get downtown?
I am nothing but supportive for this gripe of yours that you put forward - a lot. But not really related to my point.
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  #817  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2019, 2:56 PM
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You think rapid transit over the PoW via Bayview would eliminate the need for STO buses in downtown Ottawa?
In conjunction with Gatineau's two other LRT lines connecting at Rideau.

Look at this picture.

https://i.redd.it/88saqr6k3gt11.png

Now imagine the orange and purple lines both terminating at Rideau and interlining through downtown gatineau/Hull. And imagine the Rapibus coming across to connect at Bayview. Rideau becomes the LRT transfer hub. And Bayview becomes the Rapibus transfer hub. I presume we'll see most Gatinois use the LRT and change at Rideau. Whereas more Ottawa residents will transfer on to the Rapibus at Bayview.

If you're coming from the East and working at Portage, you transfer to the STO LRT at Rideau. If you're coming from the South or West and work at Portage, you get a high frequency bus from Bayview.

Coming from the anywhere and work along the Rapibus corridor? Go to Bayview and transfer directly to the Rapibus.

Gatineau resident working in downtown Ottawa? Transfer at Rideau. Or if we have the tolerance for it, allow a handful of bus to start at St.Joseph/Tache onto the POW and into downtown Ottawa.

There's one simple conclusions here.

1) You can't build a system that reduces transfers without more than one river crossing.

2) You can't completely eliminate backtracking.

Last edited by Truenorth00; Sep 20, 2019 at 3:06 PM.
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  #818  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2019, 2:57 PM
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Geez. We're back to your FUD? Where's the proof that Bayview transfers are going to "overwhelm" the Confederation Line. Feelings don't count as facts.
Your opinion is no more based on fact than mine. At least I ask questions about impacts. How many people use Rapibus to reach downtown Ottawa today or in 10 years, 20 years? What is the impact of transferring those people onto the C-Line? Who is going to pay for the extra trains needed to service those people?

Where are peak period Rapibus buses going to be laid up before entering service? We see that at each of the main transfer stations on the C-Line today.

Today, Bayview is being used mostly for students coming and going from Carleton and for staff coming and going to Tunney's Pasture. Obviously others as well but in smaller numbers. These travel patterns will begin to change with the Riverside South extension. It will change much more if Rapibus passengers were to transfer there instead of what is happening today. Has the latter ever been seriously studied? You can't just do such things without understanding potential impacts.

And that is without considering the impacts on the passengers themselves, which you don't seem to consider as worthy of consideration. Is two transfers to reach downtown in peak hours a good idea in a city the size of Ottawa? If we re-introduce express buses to Bayview, to lower the number of transfers to one, then the bus loop has to be bigger.

Last edited by lrt's friend; Sep 20, 2019 at 3:08 PM.
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  #819  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2019, 2:58 PM
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The "backtrack" is damn near irrelevant given the speed with which the Confed line can whisk you west to transfer to buses at Lyon or Pimisi or a train at Bayview.
I don't see how this would be a worthwhile improvement over what is there now, and even less over what it will be when the STO takes its routes off Wellington-Rideau and puts them on the freer-flowing (we hope) Albert-Slater corridor.
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  #820  
Old Posted Sep 20, 2019, 3:01 PM
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In conjunction with Gatineau's two other LRT lines connecting at Rideau.
Well yeah, eventually.

I am not dead set against using PoW for rapid transit. I just don't think it makes sense as a Phase 1, Phase 2 or even maybe Phase 3 option.

And by that time as others have said the bridge may no longer be salvageable for heavy use.

If we get to the point of building a new crossing for rapid transit, it's far from a certainty that we'd build it at that location.
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