Community Development - Blatchford

[kcantor]

Originally Posted by 240glt

Let the bungling begin!

http://edmontonjournal.com/news/loca...ver-blatchford

in addition to the comparable cost of heating you need to allow for the fact that distributed water will provide air conditioning from the same system so a true comparable needs to include cooling as well as heating costs. On a combined basis that cost will be less than the sum total of the two as an internally distributed system will have the capability of moving heat from the south side of a building to north side achieving simultaneous heating and cooling. for that reason alone i see no advantage and potential disadvantages to the chosen warm and hot two pipe system.

as an outsider with a dangerous amount of some knowledge when it comes to these things, it looks like the selected option is intended to allow the homeowner to get away with a nominally less expensive installation by uploading and doubling the complexity of the base system.

it’s also unclear to me how that additional cost will be recovered and from who as they're talking about a new utility company without disclosing who the ratepayers would be and whether the rest of the city will end up subsidizing blatchford.

[240glt]

^ I agree, but one one point of clarification: the cooler pipe doesn't provide air conditioning perse, it removes heat from liquid cooled condensers. From there the heat needs to be removed from the liquid. Heat pumps will work fine for heating or cooling at a constant water temperature of, say 10c (I'd have to break out the old college books to verify that number exactly) so if the concern is to provide both heating and cooling within a building simultaneously a single pipe system should work just fine. Providing two pipes at slightly different temperatures may save a few dollars here & there to the end user but at a much higher capital cost, with more maintenance. So I don't see the benefit of that

[kcantor]

Originally Posted by 240glt

^ I agree, but one one point of clarification: the cooler pipe doesn't provide air conditioning perse, it removes heat from liquid cooled condensers. From there the heat needs to be removed from the liquid. Heat pumps will work fine for heating or cooling at a constant water temperature of, say 10c (I'd have to break out the old college books to verify that number exactly) so if the concern is to provide both heating and cooling within a building simultaneously a single pipe system should work just fine. Providing two pipes at slightly different temperatures may save a few dollars here & there to the end user but at a much higher capital cost, with more maintenance. So I don't see the benefit of that

i think we're saying the same thing - i know the cooler pipe isn't what is providing the cooling...

if the concern regarding the use of a single pipe system is that it will be overwhelmed by the heat being removed under some circumstances, i don't see the benefit in doubling up the entire system to deal with than instead of dealing with it on a building by building basis by using local heat exchangers to lower the temperature of the return liquid.

again, this might be coming from someone who doesn't know enough to know what he doesn't know but i don't see the benefit of doubling the construction and maintenance costs of the entire system to deal with this circumstance.

to me, it would make more sense to abandon the redundant pipe in the ground (or use it as a localized bypass for maintenance or replacement work on the main system) that to build more of a more complicated system than needed rather than just admitting there's a better approach to finish what we started than we first thought.

[240glt]

A single loop shouldn't have problems loading up I wouldn't think unless the heat sink (source) isn't big enough. Regardless of how it is piped, any water going to a heat pump will be on the supply side



That temperature should stay relatively constant regardless of what load they're pulling out of the buildings, if the system is sized correctly.

I'm betting the worry is that they won't have the heating capacity in the winter. Given our abundance of natural gas, either a co-gen system to supplement the supply water with heat in the winter (and generate electricity) would work, or just put boilers in the buildings.

I'm still waiting for someone to do something truly spectacular... A natural gas co-gen system that provides electricity year round, waste heat to heat buildings in the winter and run absorption chillers for cooling in the summer. Now we actually have effective heating and cooling for buildings year round, and we can cool or heat whenever we want. Low grade waste heat perfect for parkades and sidewalks, and warmer condenser water to make heat pumps run super efficient in winter... far more efficient than they'll run on the proposed two loop system

[s211]

Originally Posted by 240glt

^ I don't know why you'd use geothermal in Vancouver, with it's temperate climate air to air heat pumps should work just fine.

Because Westbank (Vision Vancouver's Campeau), coupled with Henriquez (Vision Vancouver's Erickson).

[mintzilla]

With such a large focus on green tech I hope the focus isn’t lost on the basics with this development.

Building orientation, tree cover, wind blocks, pedestrian/cycling accessibility, ease of delivery / garbage collection/ proper lrt/bus depot integration, mixed use design etc.

These things will all make a hell of a lot more difference in the carbon footprint than an ill fated geothermal system.

[kcantor]

Originally Posted by s211

Because Westbank (Vision Vancouver's Campeau), coupled with Henriquez (Vision Vancouver's Erickson).

that's only part of the reason... i think the bigger reason is that vancouver has had central steam/water distribution throughout the downtown core for more than a century and the new integrated system will be an expansion of that. the key to making it work - and it's still conceptual - won't be the system on its own and the fact much of the plant and distribution is in place already but the fact that that system will come with a large paying customer base from day one. without both of those things, i doubt anyone could make it work - including gillespie and henriquez - but with it, the overall concept might prove viable...

[240glt]

^^ I agree with this. There are so many ways this development could be made better without breaking the bank on such things as vacuum tube garbage shoots and geothermal space conditioning.

At the last Northlands ARP meeting it was brought up by many area stakeholders that this is exactly what they don't want done on the south lands, closest to 112th ave. Nobody wants grandiose schemes and expensive, feel-goody gimmicks. As David Staples put it, most succinctly, Less Blatchford, More Greisbach please

[s211]

Originally Posted by kcantor

that's only part of the reason... i think the bigger reason is that vancouver has had central steam/water distribution throughout the downtown core for more than a century and the new integrated system will be an expansion of that. the key to making it work - and it's still conceptual - won't be the system on its own and the fact much of the plant and distribution is in place already but the fact that that system will come with a large paying customer base from day one. without both of those things, i doubt anyone could make it work - including gillespie and henriquez - but with it, the overall concept might prove viable...

The irony is that Gillespie bought Central Steam and is now trying to get a monopoly on other district utility systems here.

[Coldrsx]

Development of Phase 1 overlay

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ly-tToHcpAI

[s211]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

Development of Phase 1 overlay

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ly-tToHcpAI

"custom designed streets"?

Was "artisanal" already taken?

[Hardhatdan]

Please be good Blatchford.
Please be interesting.
Please be unique.

[rapid_business]

Originally Posted by s211

"custom designed streets"?

Was "artisanal" already taken?

Custom design standards (widths primarily) that are allowed due to governing Blatchford document. Applies to connecting streets primarily apparently.

[s211]

Originally Posted by rapid_business

Custom design standards (widths primarily) that are allowed due to governing Blatchford document. Applies to connecting streets primarily apparently.

That's honestly the worst grasping of straws if the City somehow thinks this truly sets Blatchford apart from the rest of the city.

Ask any potential future resident of the area whether "custom designed streets" are honestly one of their defining desired features, and I can practically guarantee that 99.9% of people would give one of those "huh?" looks.

[rapid_business]

Yeah, it shouldn't be used as a marketing feature/tagline. It will show nice though and feel nice from a pedestrian standard, but it's not something you can market effectively with the exception of to a group of urban planners.

[s4.audios]

Disagree, I think it's a great marketing feature. Urban planning is very important when attracting customers to a community. Just look at how much success Griesbach has had, both in sales and awards. And the design of the streets there is definitely different from most of the new communities being built.

Maybe the actual wording used could have been better, but it definitely intrigues me.

[Coldrsx]

Construction update
Last year was another productive year of construction at Blatchford and we are gearing up for a busy 2018!

The construction work in 2017 was focused on getting the site ready for homebuilders in the first phase of development on the west side of the community. Work included connecting Blatchford to existing utilities outside the site and installing underground utilities, including the piping for the District Energy Sharing System, which will provide environmentally-friendly heating, cooling and hot water to the homes. The first portion of paving also began last year with the very first road in Blatchford now complete!

Here are just a few construction highlights from 2017:

8,400 metres of water mains, storm and sanitary sewers and distribution piping for the District Energy Sharing System were installed
1,400 metres of curb and gutter were constructed
121,000 tonnes of concrete and asphalt was recycled for re-use on the site
175 metres of road was paved

What's Next?
The chance to live in Blatchford is getting closer as we continue our builder selection process. Last year, we started a two step competitive process to find builders who share our vision and can deliver beautiful and energy-efficient buildings. We are excited to announce that 27 builders expressed interest in being a part of the first phase of the community. We are now preparing to move forward with the second part of the selection process to secure builders for the very first homes.


Learn more about the first stage of development

At the same time as we move forward with builder selection, we will be continuing construction at the site. This year, work includes installing the geo-exchange field under the future stormwater pond and the construction of the first Energy Centre for the District Energy Sharing System. We will also complete installing utilities, paving roads and building sidewalks in the first stage and will start on the landscaping work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZOL...ature=youtu.be

[EdmTrekker]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

Construction update
Last year was another productive year of construction at Blatchford and we are gearing up for a busy 2018!

The construction work in 2017 was focused on getting the site ready for homebuilders in the first phase of development on the west side of the community. Work included connecting Blatchford to existing utilities outside the site and installing underground utilities, including the piping for the District Energy Sharing System, which will provide environmentally-friendly heating, cooling and hot water to the homes. The first portion of paving also began last year with the very first road in Blatchford now complete!

Here are just a few construction highlights from 2017:

8,400 metres of water mains, storm and sanitary sewers and distribution piping for the District Energy Sharing System were installed
1,400 metres of curb and gutter were constructed
121,000 tonnes of concrete and asphalt was recycled for re-use on the site
175 metres of road was paved

What's Next?
The chance to live in Blatchford is getting closer as we continue our builder selection process. Last year, we started a two step competitive process to find builders who share our vision and can deliver beautiful and energy-efficient buildings. We are excited to announce that 27 builders expressed interest in being a part of the first phase of the community. We are now preparing to move forward with the second part of the selection process to secure builders for the very first homes.


Learn more about the first stage of development

At the same time as we move forward with builder selection, we will be continuing construction at the site. This year, work includes installing the geo-exchange field under the future stormwater pond and the construction of the first Energy Centre for the District Energy Sharing System. We will also complete installing utilities, paving roads and building sidewalks in the first stage and will start on the landscaping work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZOL...ature=youtu.be

Since your not quoting the source, did you issue this as you use the word "we".

[Coldrsx]

I thought it might be obvious. Alas.

www.edmonton.ca

[Coldrsx]

@blatchfordyeg