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  #5741  
Old Posted Sep 27, 2013, 11:52 PM
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Originally Posted by PLANSIT View Post
Haha. I forgot I even came up with that. Though, it was not for the downtown circulator, it was for the 15 minute Rapid service.

Funny thing is, I hate the name MetroRide for the circulator. In fact, I actually prefer, Downtown Circulator! It at least describes the service.

I do really like the livery though! Like those colors a lot.
It's not a circulator at all.. it's an overflow gimmick. It benefits not one single downtown resident at all. It's a suburban service brought downtown so that commuters can still get everywhere as close to RIGHT NOW as they think they are entitled to (and also without having to stand next to darker, less english speaky, less workery people who ride the 16th street shuttle). If you live downtown and want to get somewhere the other 18 hours of the day you're SOL. It's no more a circulator than CPR is a heart.

If you want to brand it as what it actually is call it RTDCommuterBribe
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  #5742  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2013, 3:23 PM
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I'm more excited about Civic Center Station redesign. It's shaping up to be a major improvement. And it's fully funded.
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  #5743  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2013, 4:01 PM
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Originally Posted by PLANSIT View Post
I'm more excited about Civic Center Station redesign. It's shaping up to be a major improvement. And it's fully funded.
Do you have a link? What is changing relative to the current bus station?
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  #5744  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2013, 5:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Brainpathology View Post
How about craning your head slightly westward to what RTD and P3 are doing. Not that the person you're asking would agree.
To Bunt

In the US, IMO, the best government/private hybrids have been in building airports. In terms of excellence of function, the best transportation complex built in Denver in the last 30 years or more, has been DIA ((the issue here is not property plays which involved land from DIA to the former boundary of Denver, but that the project serves (the pre-911 world in particular) airline traffic, ground movements, user access via rubber tired vehicles almost perfectly.))

Historically, on an intra-state and interstate level ,over the last century or so, the best government construction has been related to the movement and storage of of fresh water, and, the processing of waste water. Look beyond the miscalculations in Colorado Basin run off based on a too short a length of time database, and, the development of the water usage has been incredibly efficient.

Nationally the best government/private hybrid in the last 60 or so years has been NASA, particularly related to non-manned space craft.

****************

Regarding the Circulator:

The steel rail system envisioned by RTD is almost completely a downtown Denver development scheme. The object is to get as many commuters and visitors into the DUS-Civic Station axis. This maximizes real estate values, and, generates the greatest increase in tax base worth.

Think of it an early 20th century Manhattan and Brooklyn, with white collar and manufacturing jobs concentrated in the two boroughs and commuters traveling in from suburbs via train, and, the subway providing linkages within the boroughs.

The problem, of course, is that 21st Century Denver cannot become early 20th Century NY because the jobs are dispersed throughout the metro-area. Paradoxically, 21st Century Denver is more like LA, today, where jobs are spread out in concentrations and workers commute to a huge number of locations.

In Denver metro, perhaps 10% of the jobs lie in an expanded downtown area, and, the rest are located in places like the Tech Center, DIA, Boulder, Lakewood, etc., as well as almost evenly dispersed throughout the metro-area, particularly in retail.

The official line of the RTD might be that the spokes actually serve the Tech Center, DIA, Boulder, Lakewood, etc., but, if so, they do so poorly (and will continue to do) poorly as the time factor involved in passing through downtown for commuters will tend to negate the advantages of public transportation for cross metro commutes.

(A friend of mine remarked that the build out will produce an almost ideal commute world only for someone living in Lodo, near DUS. When the system is completed, could work in Boulder, Lakewood, at DIA, and, at the Tech Center and have quick commutes anywhere. Another reason for a downtown apartment condo..... Yup, serves the needs of the metro-area.)

Great transportation systems accept this transportation need and deal with it via rail loops, same seat through service, and, platform to platform transfers, all of which could have been provided in the build out as ample right-of-way and downtown rail yard land was available.

For property development profit reasons, this was not done nearly as well as it could have been done and should have been done. Choices, bottom line, were made deliberately, and, were made in response to money and power.

The Circulator is a response to the larger number of commuters who will pour into Downtown via DUS and Civic Center Connections, as well as to spread a diluted 16th Street Mall 'effect' over a larger area. The 16th Street Mall usage during rush hours runs at saturation, as is, and, the movement of Market Street Bus traffic to the DUS bus station combined with additional rail traffic on the DUS light rail and heavy duty commuter lines will put a huge number of commuters at the north end of the Downtown Axis who will need to move south. Nothing more- (you are correct in your analysis.)

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7QE9...7300AF8A6624BB

This shows an excellent bus station/rail station combination, with buses running parallel to the ground floor of a multi-level train station in Osaka, Japan. The Station, like most great train stations, is a through tracked station with the terminal running parallel to, and, over, the tracks. The bus station lies on one side, has one multilane axis point, is one way, and, exits at an intersection, permitting multidirectional exit.

A side note: the Japanese have the practice of running a full or near full bus (and train) schedule for commuter traffic throughout the business day. For this reason, the buses shown in this video, have few passengers. This will not be the case during rush hours.
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Last edited by Wizened Variations; Sep 28, 2013 at 5:17 PM.
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  #5745  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2013, 11:07 PM
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I'm going to be a total butthead here for a minute.. I haven't been on / used 15th street since the completion of the bike lane. My question is, why did we half ass this? Actually more like tenth ass this.. I know I'm going to get flamed from the bicycle extremists here but this bothers me and I like my bike infrastructure..

Now I'm going to put up photos and bitch about every single one..

This is the entrance driveway to the 550 15th street hotel. What do these bikes mean? How is this directing traffic? Oh, why aren't these bikes painted green?



Are we getting encouraged to ride on the sidewalks here? What? I don't understand what this means! Not painted green!!



Is this saying I can turn down Welton, or is it saying 'this is the bike lane'?



Let's look at these two pictures carefully. There are two different bike symbols that are two different sizes. How is this consistent?





Last but not least, any other city in their right mind would have painted the whole lane green! Did we only have one bucket of paint? This looks so thrown together, I'm kind of embarrassed of it. I'm not going to join the crowds and praise this thing.. Oh, and it's on the wrong side of the road.. I understand phase 2 will have bollards which is great but the street markings look awful.

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  #5746  
Old Posted Sep 29, 2013, 11:34 PM
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Picture 1: Just lets cars pulling in and out of hotel know that bikes are crossing.

Picture 2: Again, just lets cars pulling in know there are bikes crossing. The little left turn arrow marking was there previously and put in by the hotel.

Picture 3: Turn queue box. See below for link to educational flyer showing how it works. These are used in various forms throughout the country.

Picture 4-5: One is a Sharrow (space shared with cars) and one designates the bike lane (separate facility). Again, standard throughout the country.

Picture 6:
Quote:
Last but not least, any other city in their right mind would have painted the whole lane green! Did we only have one bucket of paint?
Not necessarily true. Many cities use a similar strategy of not painting the entire facility. The approach used here is to try and only use the green in "conflict" areas. And it's not paint; it's a thermoplastic applied with a big blow torch.

Quote:
Oh, and it's on the wrong side of the road..
We've talked about this numerous times. The right side has too many conflicts with the numerous buses. It would get pretty messy with bikes and buses trying to use the same space. Putting a bike facility on the left is common in these circumstances. Again, there are multiple examples around the country of left-side bike facilities.

There will always be a bit of a learning curve when anyone introduces new facilities in a place where they haven't been used before. As the city builds more of these facilities, understanding of them will increase.

15th St. Bikeway Educational Flyer (PDF)
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  #5747  
Old Posted Sep 30, 2013, 12:04 AM
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Thank you for the clarification. Obviously I didn't know all of that.. I still think this would look better if the whole thing was painted green. I'm not budging on that one. It just looks incomplete and cheap but that's just my opinion
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  #5748  
Old Posted Sep 30, 2013, 12:30 AM
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Thank you for the clarification. Obviously I didn't know all of that.. I still think this would look better if the whole thing was painted green. I'm not budging on that one. It just looks incomplete and cheap but that's just my opinion
No worries.

I think the vertical separation will, in most cases, negate the need for green throughout. The flex-posts will assume the role of visual and physical identifier of space. They will really tie the whole thing together.
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  #5749  
Old Posted Sep 30, 2013, 12:31 AM
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I totally agree with you. Half-assed came to mind when I rode down it the first time. Not befitting at all of a bike-friendly city like Denver. Maybe this is just temporary, and they'll do a better job when they add the barrier between the lane and traffic? And the fact that it stops short of Lodo and doesn't continue to the Platte trails and into Lower Highland are also big fails, but again maybe that's a future phase?
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  #5750  
Old Posted Sep 30, 2013, 12:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Zmapper View Post
Do you have a link? What is changing relative to the current bus station?
The station is getting a complete makeover. The final design concepts are not public yet, but when they are, I'll be sure to post the renderings. And like I mentioned before, the project is funded and ready to roll once design is complete. It'll be a nice improvement.
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  #5751  
Old Posted Sep 30, 2013, 12:36 AM
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Originally Posted by BG918 View Post
I totally agree with you. Half-assed came to mind when I rode down it the first time. Not befitting at all of a bike-friendly city like Denver. Maybe this is just temporary, and they'll do a better job when they add the barrier between the lane and traffic? And the fact that it stops short of Lodo and doesn't continue to the Platte trails and into Lower Highland are also big fails, but again maybe that's a future phase?
Yes, future phases. Much, much more complicated (read many trade-offs, design complexities, limited ROW, etc.) into Highlands. There will be additional facilities to connect to Cherry Creek Trail in future phases as well.
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  #5752  
Old Posted Sep 30, 2013, 4:19 AM
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Originally Posted by PLANSIT View Post
The station is getting a complete makeover. The final design concepts are not public yet, but when they are, I'll be sure to post the renderings. And like I mentioned before, the project is funded and ready to roll once design is complete. It'll be a nice improvement.
If it's funded, then it's public. Don't make us put in a CORA request.
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  #5753  
Old Posted Sep 30, 2013, 1:35 PM
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There will always be a bit of a learning curve when anyone introduces new facilities in a place where they haven't been used before. As the city builds more of these facilities, understanding of them will increase.
This reminds me of the administration sound bites on the new health care law. "Obamacare isn't complicated; you're just an idiot."

I learned back in school that good signage requires no explanation. If it does, you need to re-work it. C work at best.
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  #5754  
Old Posted Sep 30, 2013, 1:52 PM
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The fact that this is a two-phase project is what I find most ridiculous.
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  #5755  
Old Posted Sep 30, 2013, 2:42 PM
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I learned back in school that good signage requires no explanation. If it does, you need to re-work it.
This is what I was going for. Nobody visiting our fair city is going to go find educational materials on the 15th Street bike lane. They're just going to scratch their head and go ummmm what am I supposed to do here? Why is it only green in some spots?

The funny thing about all of this is that I saw more people using the right side of 15th versus the bike lane side. I was amused.
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  #5756  
Old Posted Sep 30, 2013, 3:58 PM
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I think it's fine. Especially if more phases are coming including physical barriers. I was reminded this weekend when I was in Denver for a family emergency that having things to complain about and improve is a great luxury.

There is nothing to complain about where I am now; because nothing is going on.
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  #5757  
Old Posted Sep 30, 2013, 4:41 PM
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bit of a jumbled mess...painting it all would at least unify it - glad we have it, but this needs work.
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  #5758  
Old Posted Sep 30, 2013, 4:44 PM
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Personally I hate the all green bike lanes. To me it's visually tacky and IMO it doesn't really add anything. Honestly I like what they did on 15th using the green sparingly where a bike and car are likely to conflict, and the brick paint color as the divider.

The turn queue boxes should eventually be as self explanatory as a turn lane is in a car. I remember taking drivers ed in a city that had few turn lanes -this was after mostly growing up in a city that had a plethora of turn lanes-, and I was shocked at the amount of people who grew up in the area that were confused by the turn lanes when we were practicing. Unfortunately turn queue boxes for bikes are also rare so it takes some getting used to for those who haven't used them before, and maybe better signage initially is necessary to help with that.

I use the 15th street bike lane frequently and I also notice people still riding on the right, but most of the time it's either A) People who actually like weaving in and out of cars or B) Clueless tourists on b-cycles who are just as likely to ride the wrong way on a sidewalk. Riding on the right also seems much more frequent on the weekends when more casual riders come downtown so I think the people who use 15th most often get used to it and stay on the left more. A left side bike lane is not intuitive for people not already used to riding on the left downtown, but I think it will work over the long term. There's some degree of learned behavior whether it's driving, biking or walking to say everything should be 100% intuitive off the bat is an unrealistic expectation. As intuitive as possible should be the goal, and as has been noted the right side has major bus utilization.

My criticisms of the 15th st bike lane would be:
1) The lack of the physical barrier is making the 15th st bike lane as useless during rush hour as the bike lane on Champa (I know it's coming but still obnoxious)
2) The confusing intersection at Lawrence with the turn queue box, the queue jump to get to the right side of 15th, and the straight options. I turned right onto Lawrence using the queue jump the first time because that's visible before the turn queue box.
3) The drop off zone in front of Brooks tower. Prior to this bike lane that drop off zone was rarely used. Now it's magically overflowing with cabs/cars who frequently double park in the bike lane. To my knowledge no drop off zone was taken away nearby so it's interesting to see a bike lane encouraging usage of a drop off zone. It would be nice if that double parking issue could be mitigated somehow.

Last edited by bobg; Sep 30, 2013 at 4:56 PM.
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  #5759  
Old Posted Sep 30, 2013, 5:00 PM
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PLANSIT's answers to Ryan's questions are good. But there are some things about it we should talk about:

1. The red is unusual, but it's an interesting experiment. The normal way to do a buffer like that is just with white hashes. But maybe the red will be better, since it's more solid and different. I'm OK w/ it.

2. Do we know why they haven't put up some flexposts? I don't see any reason not to. Yes, you'd have to leave them out at the left turn mixing zones, but that's OK.

3. Speaking of the left turn mixing zones, they're OK in principle, but the design is weird. The standard way to do that looks like this (left instead of right, but you get the idea). Cycletrack design is still an emerging field and there are alternate mixing zone designs floating around out there. But the advantage of the standard one is it makes it completely clear that car drivers are supposed yield before entering the bike lane. The Denver design looks like any regular lane, so it's easier for drivers to forget bikes are there and merge over at higher speeds without looking to yield. It's not as good.
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Last edited by Cirrus; Sep 30, 2013 at 5:16 PM.
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  #5760  
Old Posted Sep 30, 2013, 5:10 PM
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Regarding paint: There are three options if you want to paint a bike lane green: You can either use cheap regular paint, crosswalk paint, or StreetBond.

Cheap regular paint wears off in a matter of weeks if cars drive over it with any regularity. So if you want to use it, you have to limit where you paint to places cars will never (or very rarely) pass over. Otherwise it's a complete waste of time.

Crosswalk paint doesn't wear off quite so quickly, but it's more slippery than asphalt, which is a big problem for cyclists. You cannot paint an entire bike lane with crosswalk paint unless you want 50 bike accidents a day, followed quickly by a class action lawsuit.

The StreetBond stuff is ideal. It's durable and high-friction. But it's also more expensive. Most cities that use this only do it at intersections, driveways, mixing zones, and queue boxes.

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