VIA Rail

[ghYHZ]

Originally Posted by J81

How would those times come down?...….Doable yes but certainly not less than an hours worth of work and most likely more.

Yes perhaps...…. but certainly a lot less time than what you had proposed......

Originally Posted by J81

Its 120 miles roundtrip between Halifax and Truro. It would require hiring two more engineers just to turn the train around after every trip. The trail locomotive would have to face west on arrival into Halifax, run around the train outside the station, run to Truro and back and then run around the train again and then back it into the station and secure it. Thats a full 8 hr shift.

[J81]

Originally Posted by ghYHZ

Yes perhaps...…. but certainly a lot less time than what you had proposed......

I didnt propose that. I was simply illustrating what doing it that way would entail. In fact what i wrote is the reasoning why i dont think VIA would ever do it that way.

[milomilo]

Is building a new wye totally impossible? I see there is an abandoned one at Windsor Junction?

This seems like a very Canadian railway problem, using another country's unwanted equipment in a way and climate it wasn't designed for, relying on a private company's property in an ad hoc way until they decide it isn't in their interest. I'm sure this was all predicted by the people in VIA internally years ago.

[J81]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Is building a new wye totally impossible? I see there is an abandoned one at Windsor Junction?

This seems like a very Canadian railway problem, using another country's unwanted equipment in a way and climate it wasn't designed for, relying on a private company's property in an ad hoc way until they decide it isn't in their interest. I'm sure this was all predicted by the people in VIA internally years ago.

Yes there still a wye at Windsor jct which i also mentioned a few posts ago. Its 16 miles out of Halifax. Long term i think it might be cheaper to pay CN to put the switches back in and return the wye to service.

[milomilo]

Sorry for missing that - yes that seems like an obvious solution to me. Though what is obvious to a layman may not always be practical.

[ghYHZ]

Originally Posted by J81

…….Long term i think it might be cheaper to pay CN to put the switches back in and return the wye to service.

Now that would take longer to turn the Ocean than even the hour to hour and a half you say to turn it in Truro.

Again.....We seem to be going around in circles.

Just modify the equipment for bi-directional use. Couple the F40s back to back and run around the train in Halifax

[esquire]

It's been over 20 years since I took a train to Halifax so I have no real frame of reference for the surroundings, but it's hard to fathom that there is no suitable spot where VIA could buy a few acres of rural or semi-rural land outside of Halifax to build a wye. I mean, they're big but they aren't THAT big. Even if the train has to run in reverse (not backing up, but with units still leading) for 10, 20, 30 miles or whatever, you would think there is someplace that a wye could be built.

The possibility that scrapping a wye could kill the entire service seems hard to believe.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by J81

How would those times come down? Ive been in and out of that wye hundreds of times. Ive put hundreds of trains together. I have a pretty good idea how long it takes to go in and out of Truro yard. Running around the train requires a brake test on the train. Changing the controlling locomotive also requires a whole other set of tests. Its not as quick and simple as everyone thinks. Doable yes but certainly not less than an hours worth of work and most likely more.

Instead of running the locomotives around the train, why not just put one locomotive at each end of the train. That would make the park car less attractive, but it would be better than having passengers transfer at Moncton.

I know VIA Rail says, "The Ocean’s Renaissance equipment cannot be used in a push-pull configuration"ref pg.10, but what are the specific issues? The only issue I can see is with the coaches as the seats face in one direction, but they could be swapped out with HEP coaches, though admittedly that would require the use of a transition car.

It is worded in a confusing way, but here is what VIA said about their solution in their Summary of the 2019-2023 Corporate Plan (pg. 15):

For the Ocean, the loss of the Halifax rail loop will eliminate the use of currently operated Renaissance equipment, which cannot function in push-pull (bi-directional) configuration. Consequently, VIA Rail is planning the following strategic changes:

• Introducing an Eastern Intercity service in the Maritimes between Campbellton–Moncton and Moncton–Halifax to better serve the local market;
• Reconfiguring the consists, and optimizing the cycling and allocation of VIA Rail’s Long-Haul equipment.

While the first point would suggest transferring of passengers in Moncton, that wouldn't require the second point. My guess is that the introduction of an Eastern Intercity service is a red-herring and they will reconfigure the Ocean to allow push-pull operation, but I could be wrong. I guess we will find out for sure on November 1, when VIA's agreement with Halterm expires (unless they get another extension).

[ghYHZ]

Originally Posted by milomilo

…... relying on a private company's property in an ad hoc way until they decide it isn't in their interest. I'm sure this was all predicted by the people in VIA internally years ago.

I believe the Loop Track is on Crown Land but leased to the current terminal operator.

[Urban_Sky]

Originally Posted by roger1818

A few questions about this. First of all, what is Durham Junction? Is it basically Oshawa station, where GO Transit currently runs on their own parallel track?

Durham Juction is where the GO tracks split from the Kingston Subdivision and Pickering Junction is where CN's North York Subdivision merges into the Kingston Subdivision...

Also, how does VIA's dedicated tracks resolve the bottle necks at Coteau? Some of the old maps seemed to indicate that VIA would switch to CPR's track at de Beaujeu, but newer maps seem to show VIA continuing to use CN's Cornwall Subdivision. If VIA wants to run 17 HFR trains plus 6 regional trains to Kingston via Cornwall (for a total of 23), that is significantly more trains than the current 12 trains a day (6 to Ottawa and 6 to Toronto not via Ottawa).

There are two possible alignments (operated by two different host railroads) between De Beaujeu and Dorval over which these additional trains could be routed...

Similarly at Toronto Union Station, VIA will have 17 HFR trains plus 10 trains from Kingston compared to the current 17 trains a day (10 from Ottawa and 6 from Montreal and 1 originating in Kingston).

As you correctly note, there will be less VIA trains entering the Union Station Rail Corridor (USRC) from the Kingston Subdivision, whereas there is a different access point for HFR trains (Belleville Subdivision), if we assume that passenger trains from Peterborough and beyond would enter the USRC the same way as they always have...

If we want HFR to succeed, those bottle necks need to be resolved. I'm sure there are solutions, I am just not sure what they are.

As far as I am aware, few details have been definitely decided at which point, but there are pragmatic and workable solutions available for all problems...


***

The effect on routes 651 and 22 would be insignificant. It would mean making routes 650 and 39 run later, which would certainly be more of an issue. Of course all of these issues go away with dedicated tracks (assume the issues I previously mentioned are resolved).

Agreed for 651 and 650, but in the case of 22 and 39, you would add substantial switching if you want ahead with your suggestion below, which would largely escalate the travel time of commuters between Montreal and Fallowfield. Also, just as "these issues go away with dedicated tracks", also any commercial need for a night train between Ottawa and Toronto would, as a 5:30 departure would get you into the office before 9am and a 6:30 departure would allow you to arrive in time for a 10am meeting. So why would a business man already part from his family the evening before, if he could just stay with his family until the early morning?

One possible solution would be to run it as a quasi split service as follows:

• Westbound: not only have a train in Montreal a a sleeper car (and maybe a coach) connected to station power (or batteries) in Ottawa that passengers could board earlier in the evening. When the train arrives in Ottawa from Montreal, it picks up the car(s) and carries on to Toronto.
• Eastbound: Have one train from Toronto with an extra sleeper car (and maybe a coach) bound for Ottawa. When it gets to Ottawa, they get dropped off and the train continues on to Montreal.

This way there would only be one train each way but both Ottawa and Montreal have good departure and arrival times.

I had already mentioned this possibility more than a year ago:

Originally Posted by Urban_Sky

Well, if you try to think up a possible schedule, this might be easier to answer: What time do you want to board a night train? At some point between 10 and midnight (i.e. late enough for fine dining, but early enough to go to bed at a decent time). And what time do you want to arrive at your destination?
If you are on business (or returning from a long weekend away), then probably before 9am. So, if the night train departs Montreal at 10pm (on the dot) and it takes 2 hours to travel to Ottawa, then what is the earliest time passengers in Ottawa can check into their cabin and go to sleep? With the train arriving at 8:30 in Toronto (just like it did when the Enterprise ran between January 2000 and September 2005) and having to clear the platform shortly after (because it's rush hour and all these GO trains need a place to stop), passengers might almost get their 8 hours of sleep and a breakfast and a shower).
However, in the opposite direction you would already have to leave the train at 6:30 in Ottawa so that passengers continuing to Montreal can arrive their by 8:30. That means getting up well before 6am, in order to have a shower and breakfast before train arrival.

Back in the days, this issue was solved by setting off cars at an intermediary station in the middle of the night and letting passengers stay on board until a more reasonable time and by letting them board earlier in the evening before the car is picked up again in the middle of the night. One such train is shown in the April 1950 CN timetable as trains 57 and 58, with train 58 leaving Montreal at 19:20 and setting off a sleeper car in Riviere-du-Loup at 2:10, where passengers can detrain until 7am while the train continues to Metis Beach and train 57 picking up the Sleeper car again in the evening at 23:35 (with passengers being able to board in Riviere-du-Loup from 9pm onwards), before arriving in Montreal at 6:25:

Source: CN 1950-04-30 timetable (p.14)

Unfortunately, such an operation is no longer realistic nowadays and the European Commission has recently released a 228-page long report which provides and analyses many reasons why night trains are close to extinction in Europe (and beyond)...

The problem is that you would need to do extensive switching four times per day (once to detach the Ottawa sleeper from the rear of the Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal night train, once to switch it away from the platform after all Sleeper passengers have left, then to bring the Ottawa sleeper to the platform in Ottawa and finally to switch it to the rear of the Montreal-Ottawa-Toronto night train), which means that the wish to let Sleeper passengers sleep longer would bind at least one crew member (for the switching), two Sleeping car attendants (one for each direction), one locomotive (for the switching) and of course the two Sleepers (one for each direction) - all incurring incremental costs which would be avoidable if no car would be set off and picked up in Ottawa...

Originally Posted by roger1818

As an added benefit, there would be a late night train from Montreal to Ottawa, which some might find useful. It would also (post HFR) result in an early morning train from Peterborough to Toronto.

One does not need to operate a night train to change the timing of any evening trains. Also, I would always assume that the night train would run via Kingston (to also create an evening run from Montreal and/or Ottawa to Kingston and a morning run in the opposite direction) rather than Peterborough...

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

As I understand it, the former Corridor night trains would wait at stations throughout the route.

I haven't noted down the timings at intermediary stations, such as Brockville or Belleville, but I have linked all

Maybe a thru train from Windsor-QC is in order. It is long enough that the overall time would be over the night. Depending on needs, another one that goes between Toronto-Montreal via Ottawa does make sense as well.

Roger1818 clearly seems to root for timetable scenario #8b (i.e. replacing trains 22/39/650/651, but departing Montreal and Toronto later than trains 39 and 650 currently). Which timetable scenario are you talking about? Please either name one of the scenarios which I have presented or describe your own scenario in a similar way as I have described all of those I've presented (i.e. with approximate times for all major stations). It is far too easy to promise ideal timings simultaneously for all stations across a route as long as you don't have to specify a timetable which exposes the painful trade-offs you try to ignore...


***

Originally Posted by J81

Actually more than half have had their traction motors replaced to the point where almost all have had their traction motors replaced. As far as running around the train i stated in my post exactly what you said. Just outside the station in Halifax there is a place to run around the train. You still have to run to Truro to turn the train around as the Ren coaches face only one way.

Originally Posted by J81

You cant turn the train at Truro while occupied with passengers unless an exemption was granted to have passengers on board the train on Non Main Track.

You could get everybody off the train at Truro while the train wyes which would be an annoyance. But then the other issue is running around the train. It could be done in Truro yard provided there are two empty tracks to use but that was a rarity when i used to go in there. Not sure about now. Youre talking an hour to hour and a half job doing it like that though.

Okay, so you do identify 3 different options, which would all avoid truncating the Ocean in Moncton:

1. Wye either train #14 or #15 in Turo without passengers on board
2. Wye either train #14 or #15 in Truro with passengers on board, provided a waiver for all or part (e.g. those which are mobility-reduced) of the passengers can be obtained
3. Modify the consists so that it can be operated bidirectionally all the way between Montreal and Halifax

Can you think of any issues which could not be addressed by either of these options?

Originally Posted by J81

Those “Golden Aged” tourists are the ones who most likely would be unhappy with the RDCs yes. I couldnt care less honestly. Its a 4 hour trip.

This again leaves me puzzled: whereas you do acknowledge that Sleeper Class is the only thing which keeps the Ocean remotely viable, it doesn't bother you the slightest to abandon a large proportion of its ridership...?

[J81]

Originally Posted by Urban_Sky

Okay, so you do identify 3 different options, which would all avoid truncating the Ocean in Moncton:

1. Wye either train #14 or #15 in Turo without passengers on board
2. Wye either train #14 or #15 in Truro with passengers on board, provided a waiver for all or part (e.g. those which are mobility-reduced) of the passengers can be obtained
3. Modify the consists so that it can be operated bidirectionally all the way between Montreal and Halifax

Can you think of any issues which could not be addressed by either of these options?


This again leaves me puzzled: whereas you do acknowledge that Sleeper Class is the only thing which keeps the Ocean remotely viable, it doesn't bother you the slightest to abandon a large proportion of its ridership...?

Im sure you can find the numbers somewhere as you are a stats guy but in my experience the number of passengers who use the sleepers all the way to Halifax is not a significant number.

Modifying the consists to run bidirectionally from Montreal means getting rid of the Renaissance equipment all together as the coaches are not bidirectional. Just look at the Corporate plan Roger1818 just quoted an excerpt from. These ideas are right in that plan.

[J81]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Instead of running the locomotives around the train, why not just put one locomotive at each end of the train. That would make the park car less attractive, but it would be better than having passengers transfer at Moncton.

I know VIA Rail says, "The Ocean’s Renaissance equipment cannot be used in a push-pull configuration"ref pg.10, but what are the specific issues? The only issue I can see is with the coaches as the seats face in one direction, but they could be swapped out with HEP coaches, though admittedly that would require the use of a transition car.

One on each end is the same as running 2 back to back and running around the train at the end of the day. Running around the train in Halifax is not a big deal and takes less time than going around the loop at Halterm.You still have to do the required tests and You want the engines together on a train that long for numerous reasons anyway.

As VIA has stated the Ren consists are not bidirectional so until they come up with an idea to replace them pulling the train backwards out of Halifax to Montreal isnt going to happen. This is why i think the Ocean going to 2 days per week and terminating in Moncton is a likely scenario as it allows the Ocean to be run with a single HEP consist thus allowing VIA to finally scrap the ren equipment.

[ghYHZ]

Here's the hybrid consist that's currently running on the Ocean. It is using Budd Coaches instead of Rens.....and if you disregard the Cabins for 1 (old style Duplex Roomettes) in the Chateau Sleepers and the Dome seats in the Park......you have a bi-directional train. Just run the F40s back to back and drop the Park.

Ocean w/b on March 4th

two F40s
one Budd Baggage
three Budd Coaches
one Ren Transition
one Ren Service Car
one Ren Diner
one Ren Service Car
two Ren Sleepers
one Ren Transition
three Budd Chateau Sleepers
one Budd Park Car

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by J81

Its 120 miles roundtrip between Halifax and Truro. It would require hiring two more engineers just to turn the train around after every trip. The trail locomotive would have to face west on arrival into Halifax, run around the train outside the station, run to Truro and back and then run around the train again and then back it into the station and secure it. Thats a full 8 hr shift. Also, the busiest time of the day for freight traffic on the Bedford sub is between 1800 and 1000. So getting a slot from CN to run to Truro and back just to turn the train could be problematic not to mention expensive. These are not insurmountable problems but They’re expensive and can be avoided and thats why i feel some changes to the service are coming. In the long run if thats what VIA does decide to do it would be cheaper to pay CN to put the switches back in at Windsor Jct which is only 16 miles out of Halifax.

I also think connecting in Moncton is annoying and will probably drive away some people but not many. If they run the RDC or whatever consist they scrounge up everyday it could actually increase the total number of PAX. This idea has been floated for about 5 years now so its not new.

Whatever VIA decides to do things will be different.

Originally Posted by ghYHZ

The idea to turn the Ocean at Truro as originally posted here and on the Cdn Public Transit Forum was to turn the train either on the way to Halifax (while occupied) or when it reached Truro on the way to Montreal the next day. Sure it will run backwards one way or the other for 64 miles....but that's only a small portion....an hour and a half of the total trip. Plus.....I'm guessing 30 to 40 minutes to wye at Truro

Actually, what I meant is that an RDC or other train that can run both directions connects Halifax to the Ocean in Truro. The Ocean would tie up in Truro and be pointing the right way to go to Montreal.

[ghYHZ]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Actually, what I meant is that an RDC or other train that can run both directions connects Halifax to the Ocean in Truro. The Ocean would tie up in Truro and be pointing the right way to go to Montreal.

How do you think they would supply, service and recrew the Ocean in Truro. There are no facilities there.

[Urban_Sky]

Originally Posted by J81

Im sure you can find the numbers somewhere as you are a stats guy but in my experience the number of passengers who use the sleepers all the way to Halifax is not a significant number.

You say that in your experience the number of sleeper passengers traveling all the way to/from Halifax is not a significant number, my two round trips during peak season in 2018 suggest the opposite. You can check your own anecdotal evidence against that of other rail enthusiasts, I have access to the actual figures...

Modifying the consists to run bidirectionally from Montreal means getting rid of the Renaissance equipment all together as the coaches are not bidirectional. Just look at the Corporate plan Roger1818 just quoted an excerpt from. These ideas are right in that plan.

You understand that the Renaissance cars are inherently incompatible with bidirectional operations, I understand that their current configuration doesn't support bidirectional operations...

Originally Posted by J81

As VIA has stated the Ren consists are not bidirectional so until they come up with an idea to replace them pulling the train backwards out of Halifax to Montreal isnt going to happen. This is why i think the Ocean going to 2 days per week and terminating in Moncton is a likely scenario as it allows the Ocean to be run with a single HEP consist thus allowing VIA to finally scrap the ren equipment.

You believe the problem to be very complex and you therefore anticipate that a solution will have to look very different from the Status Quo to be valid, I think that the problem is much simpler than you believe it to be...

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by ghYHZ

How do you think they would supply, service and recrew the Ocean in Truro. There are no facilities there.

I didn't think of that, but, I imagine that those services could be still done through Halifax as it is close enough.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by ghYHZ

Here's the hybrid consist that's currently running on the Ocean. It is using Budd Coaches instead of Rens.....and if you disregard the Cabins for 1 (old style Duplex Roomettes) in the Chateau Sleepers and the Dome seats in the Park......you have a bi-directional train. Just run the F40s back to back and drop the Park.

Ocean w/b on March 4th

two F40s
one Budd Baggage
three Budd Coaches
one Ren Transition
one Ren Service Car
one Ren Diner
one Ren Service Car
two Ren Sleepers
one Ren Transition
three Budd Chateau Sleepers
one Budd Park Car

Could the Park car be retrofitted to a cab car such that when needed, it can be run from that end?

[Urban_Sky]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I didn't think of that, but, I imagine that those services could be still done through Halifax as it is close enough.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Could the Park car be retrofitted to a cab car such that when needed, it can be run from that end?

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by J81

Durham jct is where the GO sub and Kingston sub ( not Cornwall sub ) converge. Its just west of Pickering jct where the York sub comes onto the Kingston sub. The GO sub runs from Durham jct to Oshawa station parallel to the Kingston sub.

Originally Posted by Urban_Sky

Durham Juction is where the GO tracks split from the Kingston Subdivision and Pickering Junction is where CN's North York Subdivision merges into the Kingston Subdivision...

Thanks for the clarification. That's what I thought, but I wasn't sure.

Originally Posted by Urban_Sky

There are two possible alignments (operated by two different host railroads) between De Beaujeu and Dorval over which these additional trains could be routed...

Yes. One on CP's Winchester/Vaudreuil Subdivisions and the other on CN's Kingston Subdivision. My point is that while earlier HFR maps suggested the use of the former (note it has HFR bypass Coteau and has a new station in Dorion), newer HFR maps suggest the use of the latter (instead it has HFR merge with the current shared tracks at Coteau).

Originally Posted by Urban_Sky

As you correctly note, there will be less VIA trains entering the Union Station Rail Corridor (USRC) from the Kingston Subdivision, whereas there is a different access point for HFR trains (Belleville Subdivision), if we assume that passenger trains from Peterborough and beyond would enter the USRC the same way as they always have...

I had interpreted you talking about a bottle necks at Union Station as being in the station itself (lack of platforms) not the USRC.

Originally Posted by Urban_Sky

As far as I am aware, few details have been definitely decided at which point, but there are pragmatic and workable solutions available for all problems...

I realize nothing has been finalized, but there does seem to have been a clear evolution west of Montreal at least..

Originally Posted by Urban_Sky

Agreed for 651 and 650, but in the case of 22 and 39, you would add substantial switching if you want ahead with your suggestion below, which would largely escalate the travel time of commuters between Montreal and Fallowfield.

Agreed regarding train 39. For train 22, it would just be a matter of uncoupling the last car(s) on the train, which could probably be done in the 10 minutes it is stopped in Ottawa. Not really much different from what is done with trains 50/60 and 52/62.

Originally Posted by Urban_Sky

Also, just as "these issues go away with dedicated tracks", also any commercial need for a night train between Ottawa and Toronto would, as a 5:30 departure would get you into the office before 9am and a 6:30 departure would allow you to arrive in time for a 10am meeting. So why would a business man already part from his family the evening before, if he could just stay with his family until the early morning?

Two thoughts.

1. Getting up to catch an early morning train makes for a long day and having to go to bed early at home to rest up for it effectively results in just as much (if not more) time away from your family as catching a late night train.
2. The target market isn't so much business travellers, as it it tourists who want to be time (and cost) efficient and travel while they sleep.

Originally Posted by Urban_Sky

The problem is that you would need to do extensive switching four times per day (once to detach the Ottawa sleeper from the rear of the Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal night train, once to switch it away from the platform after all Sleeper passengers have left, then to bring the Ottawa sleeper to the platform in Ottawa and finally to switch it to the rear of the Montreal-Ottawa-Toronto night train), which means that the wish to let Sleeper passengers sleep longer would bind at least one crew member (for the switching), two Sleeping car attendants (one for each direction), one locomotive (for the switching) and of course the two Sleepers (one for each direction) - all incurring incremental costs which would be avoidable if no car would be set off and picked up in Ottawa...

Ottawa station has 4 through platform tracks plus 4 single ended platform tracks (2 in each direction). As a result, the station has far more capacity than needed, so I don't see why the sleeper cars couldn't be just left there all day (from when they get dropped off in the eastbound train in the morning to when they get picked up in the evening). Thus the only switching that would be needed is to couple it to the train in the evening. In theory, that could be done by backing the train from Montreal onto the

As for the car attendants, doesn't each car need an attendant anyway?

Originally Posted by Urban_Sky

One does not need to operate a night train to change the timing of any evening trains.

Agreed. I'm just saying that it isn't all that bad change to the schedule. As I have said before, post HFR, these are timings that might be valuable.

Originally Posted by Urban_Sky

Also, I would always assume that the night train would run via Kingston (to also create an evening run from Montreal and/or Ottawa to Kingston and a morning run in the opposite direction) rather than Peterborough...

Possibly, if that would be a preferred time slot along the Lakeshore. The advantage of routing via the HFR route is that VIA isn't limited to the number of trains they run in a day, so it doesn't have to replace another departure.

Originally Posted by Urban_Sky

Roger1818 clearly seems to root for timetable scenario #8b (i.e. replacing trains 22/39/650/651, but departing Montreal and Toronto later than trains 39 and 650 currently).

I'm not convinced it would be a better option than the status quo, but feel it would be the best option (especially operated as I suggested) IF overnight service was brought back prior to to the introduction of HFR (unlikely). After HFR, it would definitely be worth serious consideration.

Originally Posted by J81

Modifying the consists to run bidirectionally from Montreal means getting rid of the Renaissance equipment all together as the coaches are not bidirectional. Just look at the Corporate plan Roger1818 just quoted an excerpt from. These ideas are right in that plan.

Getting rid of the Renaissance equipment all together because the coaches are not bidirectional is like throwing the baby out with the bathwater. The Ocean typically uses one or more of each the following types of cars:

• Baggage,
• Coach,
• Service,
• Dining,
• Sleeping,
• Transition, and
• Park

Just because the Renaissance Coach (and the Park) cars are not bidirectional, doesn't mean they can't use any of the other type of cars.

Originally Posted by J81

One on each end is the same as running 2 back to back and running around the train at the end of the day. Running around the train in Halifax is not a big deal and takes less time than going around the loop at Halterm.You still have to do the required tests and You want the engines together on a train that long for numerous reasons anyway.

Fair enough.

Originally Posted by J81

As VIA has stated the Ren consists are not bidirectional so until they come up with an idea to replace them pulling the train backwards out of Halifax to Montreal isnt going to happen. This is why i think the Ocean going to 2 days per week and terminating in Moncton is a likely scenario as it allows the Ocean to be run with a single HEP consist thus allowing VIA to finally scrap the ren equipment.

It is a possibility, but I wouldn't rule out them re-configuring the train sets used to allow it to be bidirectional.