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  #21  
Old Posted Oct 12, 2020, 7:17 PM
isaidso isaidso is offline
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Originally Posted by Martin Mtl View Post
Indeed. How is Dubai so relevant beyond the bling-bling ?
Agree. Their placement of Dubai has baffled me for over a decade. It has some of the attributes of an Alpha city but falls far short in lots of other areas. Dubai certainly is held in far higher esteem in the region in which it exists.... and in the UK where this study is based. On the flip side, the downgrade of Sydney from Alpha+ to Alpha makes sense. Alpha is where it should have been the whole time.
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  #22  
Old Posted Oct 12, 2020, 7:35 PM
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Originally Posted by goodgrowth View Post

I find it bizarre that any list of global cities wouldn't have Tokyo in the top tier..
They used to have Tokyo in the top tier alongside New York, Paris, and London. Neither Paris or Tokyo have kept pace with New York and London the last 10-15 years imo. They seem to agree. I'm not shocked that they've downgraded both. Fame and reputation aren't enough to maintain your standing forever.

I think a lot of people have it set in concrete where cities stand and have a hard time accepting that things change over time. We view cities like Tokyo as the pinnacle but a lot of these views were formed in 1980, 1990, 2000. Is it still true today? In 1950, Buffalo and Toronto were equivalent. In 2005, people would compare Toronto to Detroit and below Philadelphia. Things change but often people's perceptions are 20 years behind reality.
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  #23  
Old Posted Oct 12, 2020, 8:02 PM
goodgrowth goodgrowth is offline
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Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
They used to have Tokyo in the top tier alongside New York, Paris, and London. Neither Paris or Tokyo have kept pace with New York and London the last 10-15 years imo. They seem to agree. I'm not shocked that they've downgraded both. Fame and reputation aren't enough to maintain your standing forever.

I think a lot of people have it set in concrete where cities stand and have a hard time accepting that things change over time. We view cities like Tokyo as the pinnacle but a lot of these views were formed in 1980, 1990, 2000. Is it still true today? In 1950, Buffalo and Toronto were equivalent. In 2005, people would compare Toronto to Detroit and below Philadelphia. Things change but often people's perceptions are 20 years behind reality.
Greater Tokyo has 38 million people and a 2 trillion dollar economy... the idea that it hasn't "kept up" is sort of irrelevant when it's already basically at the top..
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  #24  
Old Posted Oct 12, 2020, 8:03 PM
Hali87 Hali87 is offline
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Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
Agree. Their placement of Dubai has baffled me for over a decade. It has some of the attributes of an Alpha city but falls far short in lots of other areas. Dubai certainly is held in far higher esteem in the region in which it exists.... and in the UK where this study is based. On the flip side, the downgrade of Sydney from Alpha+ to Alpha makes sense. Alpha is where it should have been the whole time.
I don't think it's about esteem per se. It seems to mostly be about where mainstream business is most focused.
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  #25  
Old Posted Oct 12, 2020, 8:16 PM
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Vis a vis places like Shanghai and Singapore, Tokyo has indeed slipped from a business perspective.
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  #26  
Old Posted Oct 12, 2020, 8:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Hali87 View Post
I don't think it's about esteem per se. It seems to mostly be about where mainstream business is most focused.
Yes. Whether or not it meets people’s subjective definition of a “great” city, Dubai is the business centre of the Arab world, especially for multinational professional services firms.
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  #27  
Old Posted Oct 12, 2020, 9:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse View Post
If applying this criteria places Dubai at the same level as Paris, Tokyo, Hong Kong and Shanghai, perhaps they need criteria that measures something a bit more relevant.
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Originally Posted by Martin Mtl View Post
Indeed. How is Dubai so relevant beyond the bling-bling ?
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Originally Posted by hipster duck View Post
Yes. Whether or not it meets people’s subjective definition of a “great” city, Dubai is the business centre of the Arab world, especially for multinational professional services firms.
My brother works in Dubai for a professional services firm (or I guess he was, transitioning to Singapore now). Their clients are located all the way from North Africa to Sri Lanka. I think people in North America don't understand how important the city is because they have no connection to that part of the world. Its not just a bunch of oil sheikhs driving around in their Bugattis.

Its also a surprisingly nice city to visit, even for urban snobs.

Also, seems perfectly fine to me that Tokyo is placed below New York and London.

The list seems fine.
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  #28  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2020, 12:07 AM
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Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
That organization didn't put Toronto in the same Group as those cities. Even if they had, it doesn't mean they're equivalent. There's obviously some variation within each group. And it bears repeating that this is only the opinion of that study based on the criteria they deemed relevant. They've been putting this ranking out annually for a very long time. Some of it I agree with, some of it I don't.

Alpha+: Paris, Tokyo, Hong Kong
Alpha: Toronto
I know the organization didn't. I was reacting to you saying it should be in the same category as them.
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  #29  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2020, 1:38 AM
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I spent my childhood in the UAE. My elementary school was in Dubai. Starting elementary school in the early 90s in the GTA, I had to show my principal where it was on a map. She didn't know. And they were worried I might need ESL after my time in British schools.....

Canadians are a bit less ignorant today. But not by much. And it's especially true when it comes to fast developing places in Asia and Africa.

On the GWC survey.... I'm honestly surprised that Canadian cities score so highly. Especially Toronto. I get that Toronto has sort of specialized in mineral extraction finance. But it seems more Alpha- than Alpha. And Montreal seems closer to a Beta+ city to me, with some global organizations based there and only a slightly lead in certain global fields (like AI as an example).
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  #30  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2020, 2:06 AM
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^ That was my thought too. Looking at the other cities in their respective categories, I would place Toronto in Alpha - and Montreal in Beta+ as you suggest. The idea that Montreal is above Rome and Washington is bizarre, as is the fact that Toronto is equivalent to Los Angeles.
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  #31  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2020, 2:48 AM
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Originally Posted by le calmar View Post
^ The idea that Montreal is above Rome and Washington is bizarre, as is the fact that Toronto is equivalent to Los Angeles.
No more so than Vancouver being as important as Washington DC and more important than nearby Seattle.
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  #32  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2020, 3:32 AM
Zeej Zeej is offline
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I'd agree with the above. I'd drop just about every Canadian city by one sub tier. Maybe keep Edmonton and Ottawa where they are.

They update this ranking about every two years - rankings are fun but should be taken with a grain of salt. Realistically, it probably takes at least a decade for a city to realistically make a jump from a Beta to a Beta+ (for example), if not more as perception often takes time to catch up with reality.

That being said, it's nice that our cities are getting the recognition from probably the most referenced global city think tank.
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  #33  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2020, 4:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Martin Mtl View Post
Indeed. How is Dubai so relevant beyond the bling-bling ?
Dubai is a business centre for a large area, it has strong ties to all of Africa, the Middle East, South Asia and South-East Asia. Paris is a business centre for France and some former french colonies.
I feel SSP really doesn't seem to understand what Dubai is? it's a city built on trade first and foremost, That means it's the centre for a vast trading network.
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  #34  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2020, 6:26 AM
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Originally Posted by theman23 View Post
The list seems fine.
Does it?

Let's close the thread then.
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  #35  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2020, 7:41 AM
ZTrade ZTrade is offline
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The list is OK up to Beta- then it gets murky.

My personal opinions based on experiences and their criteria.

Toronto: I'm OK with where it is. Sure it's not LA but viewing the list closer, it appears the sub categories are ranked too. Mumbai would be the only other one in the list I would agree is more relevant today. Toronto needs a stronger public transportation network and to continue the current momentum of growth (pre-covid) to make it to Alpha+ over the next decade or more.

Montreal: Drop it to Beta+ or Beta, it isn't the powerhouse it once was.

Vancouver: Drop it to Beta. I don't know as much about Vancouver as I do the above but it doesn't strike me at the same level of the likes of Cairo, Atlanta (over double the metro population), Denver or Copenhagen.
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  #36  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2020, 8:47 AM
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Originally Posted by ZTrade View Post
I don't know as much about Vancouver as I do the above but it doesn't strike me at the same level of the likes of Cairo, Atlanta (over double the metro population), Denver or Copenhagen.
A large proportion of Canada's mining and forestry companies are based in Vancouver - I think this might be a big part of it.
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  #37  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2020, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by ZTrade View Post

Vancouver: Drop it to Beta. I don't know as much about Vancouver as I do the above but it doesn't strike me at the same level of the likes of Cairo, Atlanta (over double the metro population), Denver or Copenhagen.
Atlanta yes, the rest, debatable. Vancouver could reasonably be on the same tier if we are going by global connectivity, its proximity to Asia and the investment dollars that funnel through the city in resource projects as noted above probably help the argument. That Seattle is ranked below is the real head scratcher there, they should at least be on the same tier.

This list has sort of been the "gold standard" of city ranking list and is oft ridiculed but still cited all the time. Academic and general publications use terms like "Alpha city" in reference to this list. It's worth debating, disparaging and disagreeing with many of the placements on the GaWC, but it's just too commonly referenced of a publication to ignore. Someone even bothered to put the whole list with links and ranking changes on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Globalization_and_World_Cities_Research_Network


I took an Urban Studies class in the early 2000s where we had studied this list and yes, I recall Tokyo used to be in the same tier as NY/London and Dubai was nowhere near Alpha territory. So the list does evolve over time and some cities get dropped entirely. As I mentioned in another thread it was a nice mini point of validation to see Saskatoon make its first entrance, though I was hoping for the (Canadian) Hamilton and Victoria.
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  #38  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2020, 1:03 PM
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Every time this list is posted there's a flurry of discussion about how garbage it is because X city is either too high / too low. It's measuring a very specific metric that doesn't necessarily line up with what an urbanist would look for in a city, or even how important a certain city is within a local context. But it does align closely enough that it's taken as a list describing just this.
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  #39  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2020, 2:29 PM
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People mistake this list as some sort of ranking of cities on urban quality or something to that effect. It's not. It's about a given city's place in the global economic pecking order. By those measures I do think it overranks Canadian cities a bit.
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  #40  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2020, 2:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Nite View Post
I feel SSP really doesn't seem to understand what Dubai is? it's a city built on trade first and foremost, That means it's the centre for a vast trading network.
A lot of Westerners think of Dubai as some oil wealth paradise for Arabs and wealthy whites from elsewhere. In reality, it's the premier trading hub for the Middle East and often for South Asia as well.

If Mumbai or Karachi were better cities and India and Pakistan run by more functional and less corrupt governments, Dubai might be less important. But that's not the case. So a lot of business between Europeans and Indians is done in Dubai. This is something North Americans really don't understand. The closest analogy is maybe Taiwan and China.
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