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  #1881  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2020, 2:47 PM
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Originally Posted by milomilo View Post
I'm not sure how you came to those conclusions about VIA from that video, but the important takeaway was that high frequency of service where it is useful is what is important. Not having a 500 ton train serve a handful of people on an arbitrary route once a day.

A daily service is not useful, even if it was on time. Who would use that? The occasional student moving or another low income person visiting someone? You can't generate a self sustaining income on that, certainly not enough to justify the capital expenditure required to make the railway reliable.
The biggest issue is that people look at the entire line as what most people must travel. I we did that for the Corridor, we would think that most people are going to be traveling from Windsor to Quebec city. That is not the case. So, lets look at the routes not as a ride from end to end, but serving those in between. That person hopping on in the middle of nowhere in northern ON isn't likely heading to Toronto or Vancouver.

By having a daily round trip, it means that you can do the business you need to do and come home without having to wait the extra day.

Having a daily also will help make it more reliable as the track owners will have a daily plan. The over siding length trains have a scheduled daily time. With a daily passenger train, they should be able to plan it better. It should be able to stay on time better.
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  #1882  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2020, 4:49 PM
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Originally Posted by swimmer_spe View Post
By having a daily round trip, it means that you can do the business you need to do and come home without having to wait the extra day.
Who? Anyone with money will drive, because it will be faster, more convenient and probably cheaper, especially as a group. Business travelers will fly or rent a car. So you're left with students and others without enough money to buy a car. Which isn't many people, and not a lucrative market. Plus a daily train is useless for day trips, it has to be an overnighter and it might be even worse if the departure times aren't convenient. It will be impossible to schedule a round trip that serves more than a handful of destinations along the line with a useful pair of arrival/departure times.

As always, if you are going to spend the money on public transit for a single train per day, you would be better off spending less money for multiple buses, which would be faster, more reliable, more convenient and cheaper.
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  #1883  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2020, 4:53 PM
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Originally Posted by MolsonExport View Post
The whole ticketing, boarding, etc. process at Via seems so inefficient and archaic, compared to what I have experienced in most European and Asian countries.
It's unbelievably shit. I don't understand it, does no-one who runs Canada ever visit other countries, or have they and think the way we do some things is better? There are many quirks like this which don't exist elsewhere and have no reason to continue. Our communofascist laws in regards to the distribution and consumption of alcohol is another example.
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  #1884  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2020, 5:17 PM
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Our communofascist laws in regards to the distribution and consumption of alcohol is another example.
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quoted for truth. Especially in Ontario. Quebec is far less controlling in this regard.
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  #1885  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2020, 5:25 PM
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Originally Posted by MolsonExport View Post
quoted for truth. Especially in Ontario. Quebec is far less controlling in this regard.
People in also claim that Alberta is good in this regard, which is true in relation to most of Canada, but we are still totally backwards compared to European nations. Amazing that a province governed by conservatives for 50 years would want to control the means of production, and put onerous restriction on where people can have a drink. One might even go as far to say that conservative ideology is a sham....
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  #1886  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2020, 7:12 PM
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much of the conservative ideology is, alas, a restrictive ideology. About who you can marry. About where and when you can have a drink. About women's reproductive rights.
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  #1887  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2020, 7:13 PM
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Originally Posted by swimmer_spe View Post
https://www.facebook.com/22364916782...91855007650506

A video on Facebook from Vox highlights the good and bad about transit. Ironically it shows how compared to the USA cities, Toronto has good transit. Toronto also has good transit ridership. They compare Toronto to places like Chicago and Washington DC.

In this video, the idea is that transit that is at least every half hour till midnight builds ridership. Chicago and Washington are similar sized cities. They have Commuter rail and some sort of Subway. Their bus system lacks. If they were to improve their bus system, it would cause a rise in ridership.

Now, what does that matter with Via?
Well, lets look at Amtrak. All except 2 of Amtrak routes are daily round trip routes. Amtrak has good ridership on all of their routes.
Via only has one route; the Corridor, that has at least daily service if not better. Right now much of the system is shut down. I have said that to build ridership, daily service that is on time and predictable will build ridership. Why does Toronto have better ridership than Chicago and Washington? They have regular, scheduled service that is frequent. For long distance rail, going across Canada, much like Amtrak's Southwest Chief, Texas Eagle, and Empire Builder, Having the Canadian and Ocean being a minimum daily service round trip would build ridership.

And when covid is over, people will want to travel much more. This is the prime time to invest in rail across this country, not just n the Corridor.
First of all Comparing the Canadian to any of the Amtrak long distance services is an apples to oranges comparison. Look at the Metropolitan Populations of the three routes you list.
Southwest Chief
City			State	Population
Chicago IL 9,458,539
Kansas City MO 2,157,990
Lawrence KS 122,259
Topeka KS 231,969
Las Vegas NM 2,266,715
Albuquerque NM 918,018
Flagstaff AZ 143,476
Kingman AZ 212,181
San Bernardino CA 4,650,631
Los Angeles CA 13,214,799
Total 33,376,577


Texas Eagle
City			State	Population
Chicago IL 9,458,539
Lincoln IL 336,374
Springfield IL 206,868
St. Louis MO 2,803,228
Little Rock AR 742,384
Texarkana AR/TX 148,761
Longview TX 286,657
Dallas-Fort Worth TX 7,573,136
Temple TX 460,303
Austin TX 2,227,083
San Antonio TX 2,550,960
El Paso TX 844,124
Tucson AZ 1,047,279
Yuma AZ 213,787
Ontario CA 4,650,631
Los Angeles CA 13,214,799
Total 46,764,913


Empire Builder
City			State	Population
Chicago IL 9,458,539
Milwaukee WI 1,575,179
La Crosse WI 136,616
Minneapolis-St. Paul MN 3,654,908
St. Cloud MN 201,964
Fargo ND 246,145
Grand Forks ND 100,815
Spokane WA 568,521
Portland OR 2,492,412
Wenatchee WA 120,629
Seattle WA 3,979,845
Total 22,535,573
By comparison, here are the populations of the cities along the route of the Canadian:
City			Prov.	Population
Toronto ON 5,928,040
Sudbury ON 164,689
Winnipeg MB 778,489
Saskatoon SK 295,095
Edmonton AB 1,321,426
Kamloops BC 103,811
Chilliwack BC 101,512
Abbotsford–Mission BC 180,518
Vancouver BC 2,463,431
Total 11,337,011
As you can see, The Canadian serves about half the population of the Empire Builder, a third the population of the Texas Eagle, and a quarter the population of the Southwest Chief. Meanwhile the route is the longest of the four.

NOTE: The Texas Eagle is only daily between Chicago and San Antonio. Between San Antonio and LA it only runs 3 days a week.
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  #1888  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2020, 8:12 PM
swimmer_spe swimmer_spe is offline
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Originally Posted by milomilo View Post
Who? Anyone with money will drive, because it will be faster, more convenient and probably cheaper, especially as a group. Business travelers will fly or rent a car. So you're left with students and others without enough money to buy a car. Which isn't many people, and not a lucrative market. Plus a daily train is useless for day trips, it has to be an overnighter and it might be even worse if the departure times aren't convenient. It will be impossible to schedule a round trip that serves more than a handful of destinations along the line with a useful pair of arrival/departure times.

As always, if you are going to spend the money on public transit for a single train per day, you would be better off spending less money for multiple buses, which would be faster, more reliable, more convenient and cheaper.
Between Sudbury and Winnipeg, the train is the only way in or out. There are no roads to some of these places. These people still need medical care. They still need supplies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
First of all Comparing the Canadian to any of the Amtrak long distance services is an apples to oranges comparison. Look at the Metropolitan Populations of the three routes you list.
Southwest Chief
City			State	Population
Chicago IL 9,458,539
Kansas City MO 2,157,990
Lawrence KS 122,259
Topeka KS 231,969
Las Vegas NM 2,266,715
Albuquerque NM 918,018
Flagstaff AZ 143,476
Kingman AZ 212,181
San Bernardino CA 4,650,631
Los Angeles CA 13,214,799
Total 33,376,577


Texas Eagle
City			State	Population
Chicago IL 9,458,539
Lincoln IL 336,374
Springfield IL 206,868
St. Louis MO 2,803,228
Little Rock AR 742,384
Texarkana AR/TX 148,761
Longview TX 286,657
Dallas-Fort Worth TX 7,573,136
Temple TX 460,303
Austin TX 2,227,083
San Antonio TX 2,550,960
El Paso TX 844,124
Tucson AZ 1,047,279
Yuma AZ 213,787
Ontario CA 4,650,631
Los Angeles CA 13,214,799
Total 46,764,913


Empire Builder
City			State	Population
Chicago IL 9,458,539
Milwaukee WI 1,575,179
La Crosse WI 136,616
Minneapolis-St. Paul MN 3,654,908
St. Cloud MN 201,964
Fargo ND 246,145
Grand Forks ND 100,815
Spokane WA 568,521
Portland OR 2,492,412
Wenatchee WA 120,629
Seattle WA 3,979,845
Total 22,535,573
By comparison, here are the populations of the cities along the route of the Canadian:
City			Prov.	Population
Toronto ON 5,928,040
Sudbury ON 164,689
Winnipeg MB 778,489
Saskatoon SK 295,095
Edmonton AB 1,321,426
Kamloops BC 103,811
Chilliwack BC 101,512
Abbotsford–Mission BC 180,518
Vancouver BC 2,463,431
Total 11,337,011
As you can see, The Canadian serves about half the population of the Empire Builder, a third the population of the Texas Eagle, and a quarter the population of the Southwest Chief. Meanwhile the route is the longest of the four.

NOTE: The Texas Eagle is only daily between Chicago and San Antonio. Between San Antonio and LA it only runs 3 days a week.
I wonder, what would happen if we ran shorter trains, but more often. The Corridor, our busiest route, one would think they would have the longest trains. That is most certainly not the case.

Just like how Toronto is not the highest city, yet it has some of the best ridership, size does not matter, it is what you do with it....
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  #1889  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2020, 8:30 PM
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Originally Posted by swimmer_spe View Post
Between Sudbury and Winnipeg, the train is the only way in or out. There are no roads to some of these places. These people still need medical care. They still need supplies.
Bit of a misconception. The permanent communities along that route have road access. There are a lot of cottages and camps and such that don't have direct road access, but the actual towns have roads.
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  #1890  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2020, 10:10 PM
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Bit of a misconception. The permanent communities along that route have road access. There are a lot of cottages and camps and such that don't have direct road access, but the actual towns have roads.
Oh, I didn't know those weren't permanent communities.
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  #1891  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2020, 10:18 PM
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Even where VIA is the only transport option, it really is illogical to have to guarantee a service to those places. There are surely places with no rail line and no road access, why do they get nothing while places that through luck of history are on a rail line get something?

And it's the type of situation where you have to ask if providing an on demand helicopter or plane might be cheaper than maintaining a scheduled VIA train, or building a road.

And regardless, even if VIA is forced by policy to serve these remote villages, we don't need to do the same for places on the road network, like anywhere in the prairies. If we think we want to subsidise intercity transportation (and I think we should), buses make more sense.
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  #1892  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2020, 10:24 PM
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https://www.northernontariobusiness....trains-2817188

I didn't write this, but this highlights what I have been saying.
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  #1893  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2020, 1:21 AM
milomilo milomilo is offline
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Originally Posted by swimmer_spe View Post
https://www.northernontariobusiness....trains-2817188

I didn't write this, but this highlights what I have been saying.
Which of these begging cities do not have a road?

The article mentions "delivering an economic boost to struggling tourist operators" but that's a nonsense, there's minimal chance the cost of providing rail service would be less than the economic boost. So the provision of rail must be presented as what it is; a subsidy. And if we are to provide subsidy, why must it be rail and not not something else?
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  #1894  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2020, 1:50 AM
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Originally Posted by milomilo View Post
Which of these begging cities do not have a road?

The article mentions "delivering an economic boost to struggling tourist operators" but that's a nonsense, there's minimal chance the cost of providing rail service would be less than the economic boost. So the provision of rail must be presented as what it is; a subsidy. And if we are to provide subsidy, why must it be rail and not not something else?
The issue that most people do is they ignore the realities of life outside the big cities and the challenges that rural people face. For a good example, if an elderly person needs to go to the big city for a medical appointment, what method of travel would be better for them? For people wishing to visit the big city but driving in the big city scares them, how should their family visit?

The Northlander when it was running usually had 3 cars. 2 coaches and a snack car. It was a round trip daily service except Sundays. Now, imagine you own a cottage and live in Toronto and want to take the train instead. Well, unless you don't work on Mondays, you can't. This goes back to daily service, 7 days a week. It then can work for everyone who needs it. It also works well for those that may want to use it.

I know it's an 8 hour train ride to Toronto from here. I can do it in 4. What if I don't care about the time, but want to go down today, and come back tomorrow? How hard is that to do?

The Canadian is not a short train. It has well over 10 cars. It is not the busiest route. That would be the Corridor. However, the Corridor trains usually have less than 10 cars. Why not shorten the train, but run it more often. Lets say the current Canadian runs with 20 cars, 3 times a week. Why not run it with 10 cars, but 7 days a week. No new rolling stock is needed. Now, I can go to/from Toronto every day as though I live in somewhere with the same population as here - Kingston.

The Corridor isn't the busiest just because of population. It is because of frequency. The Vox video showed that larger cites than Toronto have worse ridership. Toronto has higher ridership because they invest in the frequency. Population is only one part of the formula for success. Frequency is also only one part.

So, in the simplest way, adding more service, even if the train is shorter would build ridership. I highly doubt there would be more than 1 or 2 trains a day along the Canadian if they were to make it daily. Mind you, if they started by having shorter, but daily service, it would start something good. Then if they watch their ridership between stations, they might see a need between cities that could add service akin to the Corridor where parts of the route have higher frequencies than other parts.

No one out there can show me cutting service can truly build ridership.
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  #1895  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2020, 2:10 AM
milomilo milomilo is offline
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Originally Posted by swimmer_spe View Post
The issue that most people do is they ignore the realities of life outside the big cities and the challenges that rural people face. For a good example, if an elderly person needs to go to the big city for a medical appointment, what method of travel would be better for them? For people wishing to visit the big city but driving in the big city scares them, how should their family visit?

The Northlander when it was running usually had 3 cars. 2 coaches and a snack car. It was a round trip daily service except Sundays. Now, imagine you own a cottage and live in Toronto and want to take the train instead. Well, unless you don't work on Mondays, you can't. This goes back to daily service, 7 days a week. It then can work for everyone who needs it. It also works well for those that may want to use it.

I know it's an 8 hour train ride to Toronto from here. I can do it in 4. What if I don't care about the time, but want to go down today, and come back tomorrow? How hard is that to do?

The Canadian is not a short train. It has well over 10 cars. It is not the busiest route. That would be the Corridor. However, the Corridor trains usually have less than 10 cars. Why not shorten the train, but run it more often. Lets say the current Canadian runs with 20 cars, 3 times a week. Why not run it with 10 cars, but 7 days a week. No new rolling stock is needed. Now, I can go to/from Toronto every day as though I live in somewhere with the same population as here - Kingston.

The Corridor isn't the busiest just because of population. It is because of frequency. The Vox video showed that larger cites than Toronto have worse ridership. Toronto has higher ridership because they invest in the frequency. Population is only one part of the formula for success. Frequency is also only one part.

So, in the simplest way, adding more service, even if the train is shorter would build ridership. I highly doubt there would be more than 1 or 2 trains a day along the Canadian if they were to make it daily. Mind you, if they started by having shorter, but daily service, it would start something good. Then if they watch their ridership between stations, they might see a need between cities that could add service akin to the Corridor where parts of the route have higher frequencies than other parts.

No one out there can show me cutting service can truly build ridership.
What about all the places not on a rail line? Why are they undeserving of public transit, when those who happen to be near one get a massively subsidised, inefficient service?

I don't propose cutting service, I propose spending at least as much money on providing usable transit where it is needed most. It just doesn't need to be a train, and it would often be better if it wasn't a train.
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  #1896  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2020, 3:03 AM
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What about all the places not on a rail line? Why are they undeserving of public transit, when those who happen to be near one get a massively subsidised, inefficient service?

I don't propose cutting service, I propose spending at least as much money on providing usable transit where it is needed most. It just doesn't need to be a train, and it would often be better if it wasn't a train.
Places not on a rail line? Like where? Except for Vancouver Island and the island of Newfoundland, Most of the top 100 cities in Canada are all on rail lines. We still have the 4th largest not served by passenger service.

I propose spend enough money to serve as many Canadians as possible.
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  #1897  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2020, 4:31 AM
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Oh, I didn't know those weren't permanent communities.
I guess you learned something then. Those campsites and cabins strung along the rail line in cottage country are pretty empty after Thanksgiving.
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  #1898  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2020, 1:43 PM
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I guess you learned something then. Those campsites and cabins strung along the rail line in cottage country are pretty empty after Thanksgiving.
I have learned a lot on these forums. I thought some of those cabins, the people lived there year round.
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  #1899  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2020, 2:28 PM
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I have learned a lot on these forums. I thought some of those cabins, the people lived there year round.
If people were seriously inconvenienced by having their homes totally cut off from the rest of the world due to the absence of VIA service this year, you'd think we'd be hearing about it by now and VIA would be running some kind of relief service. But they aren't.

I think the "remote access" factor along the CN main line in NWO is seriously overstated.
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  #1900  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2020, 3:53 PM
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Bit of a misconception. The permanent communities along that route have road access. There are a lot of cottages and camps and such that don't have direct road access, but the actual towns have roads.
Are you sure about that? While there might be some of those, I thought there were some isolated First Nation communities along the route. Don't forget that the station may not be "in the middle of town," but could be the closest way to get to civilization.
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