Question about the partnership between Edmonton and Katz in the ICE District

[suburbanite]

Not sure if anyone here is familiar with some of the more intricate workings of how the relationship between the city and Katz Group is structured. I'm working on a project that may involve a similar style of partnership to induce a private investor to contribute to an entertainment district, and obviously Edmonton is a perfect case study for my client before they sit down with the city in question.

The city of Edmonton posted a pretty good breakdown of the funding contributions for Rogers Place itself, but I'm more interested in the land transfer for Stantec Tower/J.W. Marriot. Does anyone know what incentives were given to the developers? Were they given a sweetheart deal on the land that had just drastically risen in value with the construction of the new arena? Did the city waive development charges in order to lower their costs and move construction along sooner rather than later? Is any of this even public knowledge?

This is a last ditch effort but I've exhausted out internal resources here and don't have anywhere else to go. Any insight would be appreciated.

[Coldrsx]

The lands south of 104Avenue really had nothing to do with the arena 'deal'.

[suburbanite]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

The lands south of 104Avenue really had nothing to do with the arena 'deal'.

So the land that Stantec and the Marriott sit on were sold at fair market value?

I was under the impression there was some sort of agreement whereby Katz was happy to contribute almost $30 million in cash (and well over $100 million in secured lease commitments) to the construction of the arena and Winter Garden because he knew the real money was in the development of the land to the south.

Even if there was no undercutting on the price or subsidies provided by the city, selling the land directly to Katz without taking it to market is in effect an incentive. The value of those parcels would have skyrocketed after the entitlement process and a bidding war could've ensued if other parties had a chance to come to the table.

Appreciate the insight.

[240glt]

Originally Posted by suburbanite

So the land that Stantec and the Marriott sit on were sold at fair market value?

I was under the impression there was some sort of agreement whereby Katz was happy to contribute almost $30 million in cash (and well over $100 million in secured lease commitments) to the construction of the arena and Winter Garden because he knew the real money was in the development of the land to the south.

Even if there was no undercutting on the price or subsidies provided by the city, selling the land directly to Katz without taking it to market is in effect an incentive. The value of those parcels would have skyrocketed after the entitlement process and a bidding war could've ensued if other parties had a chance to come to the table.

Appreciate the insight.

I can't speak for the large former parking lot where Stantec and the hotel sit, but the site where the city office tower was built was purchased from Oxford Properties who were holding it as a long term development site. It was not actively listed but it was for sale.

Now the Katz group coercing the city into putting the city employees into the most expensive downtown office space available in the city raises a few eyebrows no doubt. But the deal for the land was fair.

[kcantor]

Originally Posted by suburbanite

So the land that Stantec and the Marriott sit on were sold at fair market value?

I was under the impression there was some sort of agreement whereby Katz was happy to contribute almost $30 million in cash (and well over $100 million in secured lease commitments) to the construction of the arena and Winter Garden because he knew the real money was in the development of the land to the south.

Even if there was no undercutting on the price or subsidies provided by the city, selling the land directly to Katz without taking it to market is in effect an incentive. The value of those parcels would have skyrocketed after the entitlement process and a bidding war could've ensued if other parties had a chance to come to the table.

Appreciate the insight.

none of the parcels that katz purchased south of 104 avenue were sold by the city. each one of those parcels was acquired in the open market from different vendors and i believe at least one of them was listed with one of the top tier brokerage firms.

[suburbanite]

Originally Posted by kcantor

none of the parcels that katz purchased south of 104 avenue were sold by the city. each one of those parcels was acquired in the open market from different vendors and i believe at least one of them was listed with one of the top tier brokerage firms.

Alright that changes everything. Explains why I couldn't find the land transfer on the databases since I was searching for land sold by the city.

Should be able to find them tomorrow but I'm assuming he bought them before the vision for ICE district was public knowledge? As owner of the Oilers they would have had the inside scoop on a new arena and speculatively purchased the land for just this reason.

[kcantor]

Originally Posted by suburbanite

Alright that changes everything. Explains why I couldn't find the land transfer on the databases since I was searching for land sold by the city.

Should be able to find them tomorrow but I'm assuming he bought them before the vision for ICE district was public knowledge? As owner of the Oilers they would have had the inside scoop on a new arena and speculatively purchased the land for just this reason.

interesting assumption...

i'm curious as to why you would make it before you've even really started your research?

[suburbanite]

Just my first thought given the situation. A lot harder to assemble the land required when every developer/speculator in the country knows its value is about to skyrocket. It's very well possible they saw enough potential even in a competitive bidding process, and given what they built on the site, they would most likely be correct.

I'll find out the dates and the sellers when I get back to the office tomorrow though.

[EdmTrekker]

Ken, I am going to bust a gut with this one: "interesting assumption...i'm curious as to why you would make it before you've even really started your research?". I hope you have something in a glass, neat and are swirling it around and around.

[kcantor]

Originally Posted by EdmTrekker

Ken, I am going to bust a gut with this one: "interesting assumption...i'm curious as to why you would make it before you've even really started your research?". I hope you have something in a glass, neat and are swirling it around and around.

well it did start with "I'm working on a project that may involve a similar style of partnership to induce a private investor to contribute to an entertainment district, and obviously Edmonton is a perfect case study for my client before they sit down with the city in question." and then moving on to "the city selling other sites in the area off-market" before being informed that wasn't the case and then assuming that three very sophisticated vendors and every other developer/speculator in the country and their brokers knew nothing about edmonton's interest in securing a new downtown arena.

as i said, i'm just curious as to why.

i'm also curious about who the mystery client is that - with his assistance - is looking at being induced with the same kind of sweetheart deal he assumes took place here to the city's detriment with some other city.

as for your hope, sometimes it's neat but more often it's on the rocks.

and sometimes there's something in a glass while other times it's worthwhile asking just for the sake of finding out what the answers are going to be.

[SHOFEAR]

I believe if you order the complete title from spin2 (as opposed to the guest login where you only get the most recent transaction) you should get the previously transaction values of the parcels.