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  #281  
Old Posted Oct 1, 2020, 6:06 PM
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I'd rather growth focus on the traditional nodes.

In most regions, those tend to have parking lots and other underused sites on their fringes, even if their cores are solid. So let the core stay retail with moderate density, and allow a lot of density otherwise.

Maybe that's easier with six-story apartments, but lots of areas would be good for highrises too.

Still do the greenfields though.
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  #282  
Old Posted Oct 16, 2020, 2:10 AM
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Humber Bayshore - Toronto


Humber Bay Shores towers by Jeremy Gilbert, on Flickr
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  #283  
Old Posted Oct 17, 2020, 4:41 PM
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Mississauga City Centre skyline has been developing nicely, but it is still lacking something important: office development. In the past 20 years, there have been dozens of new residential towers, but only one small, tiny, little office building. And all the development has been on greenfields. No redevelopment of parking lots. Too much demand for parking space. Not enough transit. Not enough bike lanes. Thus, office development is too expensive, and maybe kinda pointless with Toronto so close by. So that is an important missing ingredient, not just for aesthetics, but also function. MCC is still not a true live/work environment.

That's not to say there hasn't been commercial development at all. There is still plenty of retail at the base of buildings, so residents can just walk downstairs to the store. But they don't necessarily have to walk much further and fill the streets. That's the whole point of urban, isn't it? To reduce distances. Urban = short distances. Suburban = semi-rural = long distances. So if residents don't need to fill the sidewalks, maybe MCC is successful there. But to be truly a success, residents shouldn't also fill the buses and roads. They shouldn't have to go outside the neighbourhood.

You can see Mississauga and Brampton has been successful at getting lots of people to use transit, and having lots of jobs within their boundaries is the most important ingredient. Reducing distances, jobs closer to homes, that how to get people to live a more urban lifestyle. What is the next step for urbanization, after transit? Cycling. Reducing distances enough for people to get on the bike, then parking spaces can be reduced, then next step will be pedestrians, then MCC can become more like a downtown.

But right now, maybe it is not fair to compare it to a downtown. Again, it is entirely greenfield developments like a new subdivision, and it is still full of greenfields. Maybe that is another barrier. Why build on greyfields when you can still build on greenfields?

You guys can see similar attempts in Markham Centre and Oakville's Uptown Core. Similar attempts, similar problems, but maybe they are actually an interesting alternative to a typical subdivision? Maybe they aren't actually such a bad thing?
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  #284  
Old Posted Oct 17, 2020, 11:05 PM
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^ I just saw on urbantoronto that there is a proposal for a 19 storey office building in Mississauga City Centre.
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  #285  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2020, 12:37 AM
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Vaughan Metropolitan Centre Skyline newest additions

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  #286  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2020, 5:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doady View Post
Mississauga City Centre skyline has been developing nicely, but it is still lacking something important: office development. In the past 20 years, there have been dozens of new residential towers, but only one small, tiny, little office building. And all the development has been on greenfields. No redevelopment of parking lots. Too much demand for parking space. Not enough transit. Not enough bike lanes. Thus, office development is too expensive, and maybe kinda pointless with Toronto so close by. So that is an important missing ingredient, not just for aesthetics, but also function. MCC is still not a true live/work environment.

That's not to say there hasn't been commercial development at all. There is still plenty of retail at the base of buildings, so residents can just walk downstairs to the store. But they don't necessarily have to walk much further and fill the streets. That's the whole point of urban, isn't it? To reduce distances. Urban = short distances. Suburban = semi-rural = long distances. So if residents don't need to fill the sidewalks, maybe MCC is successful there. But to be truly a success, residents shouldn't also fill the buses and roads. They shouldn't have to go outside the neighbourhood.

You can see Mississauga and Brampton has been successful at getting lots of people to use transit, and having lots of jobs within their boundaries is the most important ingredient. Reducing distances, jobs closer to homes, that how to get people to live a more urban lifestyle. What is the next step for urbanization, after transit? Cycling. Reducing distances enough for people to get on the bike, then parking spaces can be reduced, then next step will be pedestrians, then MCC can become more like a downtown.

But right now, maybe it is not fair to compare it to a downtown. Again, it is entirely greenfield developments like a new subdivision, and it is still full of greenfields. Maybe that is another barrier. Why build on greyfields when you can still build on greenfields?

You guys can see similar attempts in Markham Centre and Oakville's Uptown Core. Similar attempts, similar problems, but maybe they are actually an interesting alternative to a typical subdivision? Maybe they aren't actually such a bad thing?
Are there any suburban centres in Toronto that have been successful in attracting office space as well as residential and retail?

In Vancouver for many years there was only limited success in attracting office development outside downtown. Now it seems much more common for developers to build office space especially in areas adjacent to skytrain stations.
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  #287  
Old Posted Oct 20, 2020, 6:23 PM
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Originally Posted by vanman View Post
Are there any suburban centres in Toronto that have been successful in attracting office space as well as residential and retail?

In Vancouver for many years there was only limited success in attracting office development outside downtown. Now it seems much more common for developers to build office space especially in areas adjacent to skytrain stations.

I'm sure someone has the stats somewhere, but there seems to be a fair bit of office space in North York Centre, mostly built in the 80s and 90s - presumably owing to lower business taxes pre-1998 and the relative weakness of the downtown market at the time. It's been many years now since it's had any major new office developments however. The commercial office market has become a lot more downtown-centric in recent years.
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  #288  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2020, 10:06 PM
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Maybe unfinished Sheppard Subway is holding NYCC back. MCC is kind of regional hub with all the GO service there, and MiWay itself is not pure grid, so maybe it will easier to attract office development if they improve transit enough. I think if there was a combined Halton-Peel "GTA West" region maybe Mississauga City Centre could have more potential as a regional hub and attract more office development. NYCC is near the York Region border so political division and fragmentation might be holding it back as well.

I think the divisions and fragmentation only hurt these places. The need to separate cities and suburbs, or suburbs from other suburbs is so prevalent in the Toronto area. Maybe that is less of a problem in the Vancouver area.
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  #289  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2020, 8:34 AM
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Etobicokes 2 biggest skylines

Etobicoke City Centre on the left and Humber Bay on the right

Last edited by Nite; Oct 24, 2020 at 9:09 AM.
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  #290  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2020, 2:31 PM
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Humber Bay is very striking. Ten years ago, there was nothing.

amazon
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  #291  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2020, 2:34 PM
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Vaughan Metropolitan Centre Skyline newest additions

Wow, Vaughn has really grown up. I remember going there in the 70s and it was nothing but farms.
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  #292  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2020, 3:52 AM
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More of Vaughan metropolitan Centre

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  #293  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2020, 7:14 AM
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Vaughan Metropolitan Centre has an advantage over Mississauga City Centre, North York City Centre, and Scarboroughh Town Centre in that it's starting with a blank slate. It's also starting to develop in a time when TOD is what gets approved, a great pedestrian experience is viewed as important, and architectural standards are higher than they've been in decades. VMC doesn't have to deal with mistakes made 1975-2015. It may end up being the best suburban node of the lot.

Humber Bay Shores in Etobicoke is another to watch. It's already impressive but the multi-tower proposal announced would transform it from a condo cluster to a proper mini-downtown.
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  #294  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2020, 7:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nite View Post
Etobicokes 2 biggest skylines

Etobicoke City Centre on the left and Humber Bay on the right
That part of Toronto almost feels like bits of LA with the super wide roads that go on forever, low rise warehouses/chain stores, and heavily auto centric. I'm assuming Etobicoke City Centre is built around Kipling subway station and the cluster will grow west along this street? That it has a subway station (last stop on the line) gives one reason for optimism.

Hopefully, Toronto will build a parallel subway line but further south along Queen then down the Queensway. Then a north south line connecting that line to this one: Humber Bay to Etobicoke City Centre.
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Last edited by isaidso; Oct 26, 2020 at 7:49 AM.
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  #295  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2020, 3:01 PM
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More of Vaughan metropolitan Centre

BTW Nite's construction photo is this project... which I'm livid is not being built downtown . Would have been a perfect punctuation !! mark for all the bricky new medium-rise projects east of the core (a great addition to the Distillery District neighbourhood too, though something smaller/similiar is in the pipeline).

Suburban Vaughn: CG Tower - 189m - 60s - Cortel Group - Quadrangle - u/c

UT


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  #296  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2020, 3:51 PM
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Originally Posted by MolsonExport View Post
Humber Bay is very striking. Ten years ago, there was nothing.

amazon
I was curious about the above tower cluster and amazed to find that its literally in the middle of nowhere. The closest heavy rail station (with infrequent service) is a 30-minute walk away. How did such high intensity development ever secure planning permission?
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  #297  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2020, 4:32 PM
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I was curious about the above tower cluster and amazed to find that its literally in the middle of nowhere. The closest heavy rail station (with infrequent service) is a 30-minute walk away. How did such high intensity development ever secure planning permission?

The good news is that a new commuter rail station will be added to the neighbourhood, and the line is currently in the process of being electrified & upgraded to 15-minute all-day service. There's also a proposed LRT line through the area.

But yeah, for now the transit service is very inadequate relative to the level of density. Some of the city's planning decisions are questionable.

GO station on the left, existing streetcar / proposed LRT through the centre:


https://urbantoronto.ca/news/2019/10...ies-plant-site
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  #298  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2020, 8:15 PM
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Yes, a big upgrade in PT infrastructure is crucial for Humber Bay. Practically everyone that lives there commutes by car because the PT options that exist are pathetic. That GO station can't happen soon enough. Although it's not on the radar at all, Toronto needs to reconsider a Queen subway line. It got nixed in favour of the Ontario Line (old Downtown Relief Line) but we need both.

They've been talking about a Queen Line subway line since 1944. We even have a ghost Queen station for that purpose. A Queen Line needs to extend west down Queen West, all the way down the Queensway, then into Mississauga. That we don't have an east-west subway near the lake is ridiculous. If we had that, they could then build LRT/subway from this development north to that Queen subway line and have it continue on north to Etobicoke City Centre.
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  #299  
Old Posted Oct 26, 2020, 8:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maldive View Post
BTW Nite's construction photo is this project... which I'm livid is not being built downtown . Would have been a perfect punctuation !! mark for all the bricky new medium-rise projects east of the core (a great addition to the Distillery District neighbourhood too, though something smaller/similiar is in the pipeline).
Yeah, CG is a real beaut, but at least it's in the vicinity. You're right, though, that downtown could use more of this style.
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  #300  
Old Posted Oct 27, 2020, 12:18 AM
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Originally Posted by isaidso View Post
That part of Toronto almost feels like bits of LA with the super wide roads that go on forever, low rise warehouses/chain stores, and heavily auto centric. I'm assuming Etobicoke City Centre is built around Kipling subway station and the cluster will grow west along this street? That it has a subway station (last stop on the line) gives one reason for optimism.

Hopefully, Toronto will build a parallel subway line but further south along Queen then down the Queensway. Then a north south line connecting that line to this one: Humber Bay to Etobicoke City Centre.

Etobicoke City Centre is actually at Islington and Bloor, but it looks like it will be merging with the kipling station skyline soon
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