HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Photography Forums > Found City Photos

Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #21001  
Old Posted Apr 21, 2014, 9:09 PM
Tourmaline Tourmaline is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 996
Quote:
Originally Posted by ethereal_reality View Post
I was only aware of Mack Sennett's studio in Echo Park when I came across these fascinating photographs from 1927.
It turns out, there was also a Mack Sennett Studio in the San Fernando Valley.

The future site of Mack Sennett's studio at 4024 N. Radford Avenue in the San Fernando Valley.

http://museumsanfernandovalley.blogs...1_archive.html

above: This view is looking east toward Mount Hollywood and the Cahuenga Pass into Hollywood.
This photograph was taken from Radford Avenue, just east of Laurel Canyon on Ventura Boulevard.




Construction at the Mack Sennett Studio on Radford Avenue in 1927.


__

The land was owned by Harry Merrick of the 'Central Motion Picture District' land syndicate (formerly of the Chicago Assn. of Commerce). Financed by the Guarantee Building Loan & Assn., the syndicate acquired over 500 acres of former Lankershim Ranch land stretching from Tujunga Avenue and Pacoima Avenue (now Laurel Canyon Boulevard), Ventura Boulevard to Chandler Way in 1926, envisioning it's own little city (eventually 'Studio City').

Sennett later explained that "a group of enterprising real estate operators offered me a gift of 20 acres near the trickle known as the Los Angeles River." Merritt's company would construct the studio from plans drawn by architect Harold Cass.


http://studiocity.patch.com/groups/a...ed-studio-city




http://studiocity.patch.com/groups/a...ed-studio-city

Newspapers announced on June 11, 1927 that the Sennett Studio of over 12 buildings would feature California Renaissance design. Workers began picking fruit from 275 acres of plum, peach, and apricot orchards (an area obviously larger than Mack Sennett's allocated 20 acres) that would soon be destroyed by Merritt's 'Central Motion Picture District'. Later, 60 acres of walnuts, five acres of pecans, and 25 acres of grapevines would be harvested before they too were decimated.



The birth of Studio City.

http://studiocity.patch.com/groups/a...ed-studio-city

above: Notice that Merrick's ' Central Motion Picture District' is referenced on the billboard.



below: The Mack Sennett Studio today (now known as the CBS Studio Center)


google earth



The old Mack Sennett/CBS Studio Center in relation to Hollywood.


google earth
__
http://jpg2.lapl.org/pics08/00013514.jpg
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #21002  
Old Posted Apr 21, 2014, 9:15 PM
Tourmaline Tourmaline is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 996
Quote:
Originally Posted by HossC View Post
Here's another view of the same incident. I wonder where the house ended up.


vintage everyday


Time to rotate those solid rubber tires?

Mack Bulldog Truck evidently had a long and productive life. Guessing it was probably 30 years old or older in '52.


1917 - Mack hauls a 100" observatory mirror to Mount Wilson.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Glass-1917.jpg

1924 or '25 - Mack does Subway Building. http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/show...ostcount=19884


http://static.commercialmotor.com/bi...ack%201920.jpg
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #21003  
Old Posted Apr 21, 2014, 9:40 PM
Martin Pal Martin Pal is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 2,441
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tourmaline View Post
I knew the Gates Nuts photo was on this post, but the building across the street wasn't identified as the Bit O' Sweden building.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #21004  
Old Posted Apr 21, 2014, 11:32 PM
MartinTurnbull's Avatar
MartinTurnbull MartinTurnbull is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 223
Only Known Footage of Union Station Opening, Shot by Ward Kimball

I just came across this incredibly rare (silent but color) footage taken of the 1939 opening of Union Station. Interestingly, it was shot by Ward Kimball who was the animator at Disney who created Jiminy Cricket in “Pinocchio”, Tweedledee and Tweedledum in “Alice in Wonderland” and Lucifer the Cat in “Cinderella.”



https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=OmOo9oKrjLI
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #21005  
Old Posted Apr 21, 2014, 11:37 PM
Albany NY's Avatar
Albany NY Albany NY is offline
I Like Turtles!
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Albany, NY
Posts: 168
Still Living?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Pal View Post
I recently posted about Mom (Anne) Lehr's Hollywood Guild and Canteen here:
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/show...ostcount=20396
HossC provided some further info on the same page.

I found two interior photos of the place on LAPL.
(Sources sometimes confuse the Hollywood Canteen with the similarly titled Hollywood Guild and Canteen.)

Lucky Ervin!

LAPL

Lucky No. 2,000,000! Ervin Hermann, sailor from Oklahoma City, talks over what happened to him with Anne Lehr, founder and president of the Hollywood Guild and Canteen, and Mary Pickford, vice president, when he was the 2,000,000th serviceman to register at the haven for G.I.'s on North Crescent Heights Blvd., in what is now West Hollywood. Hermann was presented with a war bond, whisked onto a national radio program, and had a date with Diana Lynn, screen starlet, at Earl Carroll's for dinner. Later, he was taken on a tour of night clubs.

LAPL
According to the Miami Daily News from August 9, 1945, the other woman kissing Ervin was Mary Pickford. The article listed his age as 18, which would make him 87 today. There is an Ervin C. Hermann, age 87, alive and well today living in Houston. If that is him, just imagine how many hundreds of times over the last 69 years he has told the story of being kissed by Mary Pickford!
__________________
---"Rosebud...." It was a sled, people! Just a stupid, friggin' sled!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #21006  
Old Posted Apr 22, 2014, 1:43 AM
MichaelRyerson's Avatar
MichaelRyerson MichaelRyerson is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 1,155
The quest goes on...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ethereal_reality View Post
I didn't know Plomb Tools became Proto Tools.
__



originally posted by MichaelRyerson






I came across this interesting newspaper article earlier this morning.




August 1938

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/thed...008/08/page/2/

I thought it would be fun quest to try and find a photograph (perhaps an aerial) that shows the house behind
the S.A.R. Headquarters on Hope Street.

I also wonder what "haunted house on Bunker Hill" Mrs. Tafe speaks of.

__
This the only image of the little house I've been able to find...


View looking northeast from the Richfield Building, 1930

So much to like about this image (which is a detail of a much larger high-res shot). Over on the right is the ironwork going up for the Edison Building (upper 5th Street and Grand Avenue) and proceeding up Grand Avenue, next to it, the red brick building, is the Sherwood Apartments and then a seemingly vacant lot actually occupied by a small Victorian cottage (425) and then the immense four-story Granada (419), then the top of Zelda LaChat's family home at 407 S. Grand and finally, on the corner of 4th and Grand Avenue, the Zelda, her thirty-nine unit apartment building wherein she will have passed four years earlier in 1926. To the right of the Zelda, on the east side of Grand Avenue, is the Leonard J. Rose Mansion (directly beyond the Rose Mansion is the Mutual Garage at 4th and Olive Streets and peeking through to the left of the garage is the backside of the Olive Inn). Going west from the Zelda on 4th (to the left) is a small single family dwelling at 612 W. 4th (hidden from view, it appears to be vacant property) and then three very similar appearing apartment houses, first the Gordon at 618, the Bronx (624) and on the corner of 4th and Hope, the La Belle (630). It might be of interest to note that the Gordon faces pretty much directly up the southern terminus of Bunker Hill Avenue. Coming down the east side of Hope Street behind the La Belle is a large parking lot, then the L.A. Gas & Electric Company at 430 S. Hope, then next a low-lying garage which, I believe, opened onto a small alleyway behind the Sherwood (this garage will be demolished with the coming of the Edison garage and Annex), then the Pierce Apartments which backed up to the Engstrum Hotel/Apartments and a one story single family dwelling which appears to have been multi-purposed with some small business (a doctor's office perhaps) on the NE corner of Hope and upper 5th Street. These last two, the Pierce and the little single family, will soon be acquired by the Engstrum and turned into open parking. At the bottom edge/center-right (with the single, pyramidical capped turret) is the roof of the Mount View Apartments soon to be lost with the coming of the Sunkist Building. And now going up the west side of Hope Street from the Mount View is the Touraine with what appears to be a black-roofed penthouse/solarium, just over the edge of the Touraine you can see the nearly square, white Sons of the Revolution library (at 437 S. Hope), brand new here having opened perhaps a year earlier. Behind the Sons library and partially hidden in those scrawny trees but still just over the edge of the Touraine can be seen one of the original outbuildings that predated the library. Remember when Stowell deeded the property to the Sons he only deeded a portion, holding back nearly three quarters of the actual land area. The ridgeline of this little house runs parallel to Hope Street. Next is the squarish four-story Santa Barbara and the Rubaiyat (with it's unusual stepped side façade) at 427 S. Hope Street. The Rubaiyat was built on the site of the late Dr. John Carl Zahn's residence, a handsome large Victorian with a small horse pasture out back for his son's horses. After the Doctor's passing his widow had the home demolished and built the Rubaiyat on the site (originally to be called the Zahn Apartments). The sons are generally credited with developing the southeast corner of 4th and Hope with the construction of the three 'peas-in-a-pod', the Gordon, the Bronx and the LaBelle, but the timing seems to indicate the widow played a role here as well with all four buildings going up at about the same time in 1912. North of the Rubaiyat we have an expanse of open ground and then the stark white Barbara Worth Apartments (formerly the Briggs) at 407 S. Hope Street. There is a single family residence on the SW corner next to the Barbara Worth, its roofline can just be seen here. The Hildreth Mansion is on the NW corner but is not visible, being just out of view in the upper left corner. On the NE corner of 4th and Hope, facing the three-peas-in-a-pod are three more, similarly sized apartment buildings. On the corner, directly opposite the LaBelle, is The Gibson (635 W. 4th) with a peaked cornice hiding a flat roof, next to it The Kiernan (631 W 4th) a hip roof with a single dormer and the third is The Crestholme (621 W. 4th) with a penthouse solarium toward the rear, directly across 4th Street from the Gordon, putting it on the NW corner of 4th Street and Bunker Hill Avenue.
detail of panorama.

USC digital archive/Dick Whittington Photography Collection, 1924-1987
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #21007  
Old Posted Apr 22, 2014, 3:29 AM
kznyc2k's Avatar
kznyc2k kznyc2k is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Back to Boston
Posts: 1,865
Another archaeological find --this one under City Hall's lawn:

Quote:
It started last fall when a soil survey team from the USDA’s Natural Resources Conservation Service (NRCS) began to dig a soil pit in City Hall Park adjacent to city hall, as part of the agency’s soil survey.

While collecting soil samples, NRCS scientists unearthed the first three feet of material, nothing out of the ordinary struck them from a typical soil dig in an urban center. But they dug a little deeper and discovered something extraordinary.

“At first glance, I thought we had unearthed crushed up brick material, which is common of anthropogenic soils in urban areas,” said Randy Riddle, NRCS soil survey project leader. “After digging a slightly larger hole to get a better view, we noticed that whole red bricks were leveled horizontally. The oriented brick layer was continuous throughout the bottom of the excavated area.”

The discovery led to consulting with a number of local historians to identify what the group found. At first thought, it seemed like the red bricks made up an old brick road now buried deep.

But after multiple discussions with historians and looking at dated pictures of the exact spot, it turns out the bricks constituted a subfloor for a former dentist’s office that boasted painless teeth extractions for a mere 50 cents.

The dentist’s office was one of the final tenants in the Lichtenberger Building, located on the corner of First and Main streets, and destroyed in 1926 to make way for the city hall complex.
Full Article Here


LAPL
__________________
Politicians, ugly buildings and whores all get respectable if they last long enough.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #21008  
Old Posted Apr 22, 2014, 4:54 AM
MartinTurnbull's Avatar
MartinTurnbull MartinTurnbull is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 223
Mammy's Shack, Culver City

I just came across this place, called "Mammy's Shack." Evidentally, it was in Culver City and famous for its squab dinners. Has anybody come across this before? Any specific address? Dates?

Reply With Quote
     
     
  #21009  
Old Posted Apr 22, 2014, 5:01 AM
Wig-Wag's Avatar
Wig-Wag Wig-Wag is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 330
More on the Ward Kimball film.

Deleted duplicate post.

Last edited by Wig-Wag; Apr 22, 2014 at 2:42 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #21010  
Old Posted Apr 22, 2014, 5:01 AM
Wig-Wag's Avatar
Wig-Wag Wig-Wag is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 330
More on the Ward Kimball film.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinTurnbull View Post
I just came across this incredibly rare (silent but color) footage taken of the 1939 opening of Union Station. Interestingly, it was shot by Ward Kimball who was the animator at Disney who created Jiminy Cricket in “Pinocchio”, Tweedledee and Tweedledum in “Alice in Wonderland” and Lucifer the Cat in “Cinderella.”



https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=OmOo9oKrjLI
Martin, Ward Kimball and Walt Disney both loved railroads and both ultimately constructed full sized operations. Ward initially got the jump on Walt when he built a narrow gauge railroad on his property in Arcadia. Walt of course ultimately triumphed Walt with the Santa Fe and Disneyland Railroad at Disneyland and later another railroad at Disney world. Both of these were also narrow gauge.

Ward's equipment was donated to the Orange Empire Railway Museum at Perris, California and can be see here along with a history of his "Grizzly Flats Railroad."

http://www.oerm.org/collection/3-foo...-grizzly-flats

Of note in the film are a number of historic locomotives, most of which are still with us. Among them is Southern Pacific Locomotive No.1, the C.P. Huntington, now at the California State Railroad Museum in Sacramento and number 4120, one of Southern Pacific's famous "Cab Forward" locomotives carrying the train number 99. Train 99 was the Coast Daylight, known today as Amtrak's Coast Starlight. The 4120 was scrapped but the last in the series, number 4294 is also on display at the Sacramento Museum.


Cheers,
Jack
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #21011  
Old Posted Apr 22, 2014, 5:21 AM
acorn8332's Avatar
acorn8332 acorn8332 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Pal View Post
What's wrong with this Hody’s postcard?

Nichols/Lotta Living

Apparently, the Capitol Records Building took a walk across the street!

(The clown's nose on the billboard rotated!)
Also, the streetlights are cut off at the roof line. Often found on daytime postcards where the sky has been "augmented". Unusual to see this on a night shot--but no more unusual than the Capitol Records building moving around!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #21012  
Old Posted Apr 22, 2014, 8:10 AM
FredH's Avatar
FredH FredH is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 676
Quote:
Originally Posted by HossC View Post
I'm assuming that the large building at the center of this aerial is the Arcade Annex. It appears on Historic Aerials' images from 1948 (the earliest for this area) to 1980. The image below is from 1980 as it was the clearest. Google Earth shows the current structures were there by 1994. Other than that, I didn't find much information. The Arcade Annex isn't on the 1921 Baist map, and the first mention I found in the City Directories is 1932. A couple of the City Directories list its opening hours as "never closed".


Historic Aerials
HossC: I think you have correctly located the Arcade Annex. If that is the building, then it occupied the same location as the old City Produce Market.
This picture of the City Produce Market at Third and Central was posted by ER way back on page 96.


USC


ebay

Currently, this space is occupied by the Little Tokyo Shopping Center and a church:


Google Maps

So, ER - It looks as though you have located two great old photos of the exact same location in two completely different eras. Nice!

Last edited by FredH; Apr 22, 2014 at 8:21 AM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #21013  
Old Posted Apr 22, 2014, 8:39 AM
Flyingwedge's Avatar
Flyingwedge Flyingwedge is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noircitydame View Post

Tho it has probably been discussed here before (?) it was news to me that the building at 3rd & Main, which had been built by/for Al Levy for his first cafe in 1906 is actually a remnant of the old Levy building - another one that had been chopped down from 3 stories. I'd assumed it was a 50s replacement. I think there was a dance hall in the 3rd street side of this building in the mid-30s, but the address doesn't quite match up with the Baist maps.

c. 1938, already minus the cupola that had housed Levy's old oyster pushcart (img from USC digital):


Today with a lot of the tile and some ceiling features intact:




The noirish alley veiw:
I couldn't find where the NW corner of 3rd and Main, which doesn't seem to have been photographed very often before the 1930s, had been discussed here elsewhere, NCD.


June 25, 1905 Los Angeles Herald:


LOC -- http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lc...d-1/seq-11.pdf

To digress for a moment, the architect mentioned in the article, A. M. Edleman (1864-1941), was the son of A. W. Edelman, Los Angeles' first rabbi. A. M. Edelman's
buildings include the synagogue at 9th and Hope (1895; pictured below in 1897), which replaced the 1873 synagogue next to the City Hall on Broadway. He also
designed the replacement for the 9th and Hope building, the Wilshire Boulevard Temple (1929):

Art Institute of Chicago -- http://digital-libraries.saic.edu/cd...id/10151/rec/1

More on Edelman: http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?i...ew=1up;seq=193 and https://digital.lib.washington.edu/a.../partners/375/

NW corner of 3rd and Main is in lower left corner; Main runs left to right across the bottom:

1906 Sanborn @ LAPL


1909 LA City Directory @ Fold3.com

Al Levy's old oyster cart is mentioned at the end of this Feb 19, 1906 LA Times article:


Looking west on 3rd from Main; I guess that's the old oyster cart on the roof under the cupola:

Los Angeles, the Old and the New (J. E. Scott, 1911) @ HathiTrust -- http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?i...iew=1up;seq=39

This is supposed to be Al Levy in a push cart, but it doesn't look like the one on the roof:

LAPL -- http://jpg1.lapl.org/pics18/00008719.jpg

Al Levy's building at the NW corner of 3rd and Main is in the middle of this closeup of a 1910 balloon photo:

USCDL -- http://digitallibrary.usc.edu/cdm/si...d/4020/rec/176

I'm not sure when the cupola was decoupled from the roof (though before '39); this is from 1954:

CA State Library -- http://catalog.library.ca.gov/exlibr...RB4NID7P3F.jpg

1959; I think this is the 3rd Street side:

CA State Library -- http://catalog.library.ca.gov/exlibr...SLCFD7T472.jpg

June 1, 1960; the source says the building, "Old Boomer" (no explanation), is being cut down to one story:

Huntington Digital Library -- http://hdl.huntington.org/cdm/single...d/8560/rec/316

June 30, 1961:

Huntington Digital Library -- http://hdl.huntington.org/cdm/single...d/8551/rec/136

The Los Angeles County Assessor says this building was built in 1905:

GSV
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #21014  
Old Posted Apr 22, 2014, 11:58 AM
Tourmaline Tourmaline is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 996
Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinTurnbull View Post
I just came across this place, called "Mammy's Shack." Evidentally, it was in Culver City and famous for its squab dinners. Has anybody come across this before? Any specific address? Dates?


5687 West Washington Blvd., CC

Noticed a few articles (Van Nuys News) about the place from '25 through mid '30s but have not been able to access them.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #21015  
Old Posted Apr 22, 2014, 12:03 PM
GaylordWilshire's Avatar
GaylordWilshire GaylordWilshire is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: NYC
Posts: 3,702
BLACK DAHLIA CASE SOLVED

This 13-year-old boy did it:


(He went on to kill Jimmy Hoffa and Jon Benet Ramsey)


Another retired police detective--not the doting son of Evil Genius George Hodel--has solved the case:

http://ladailymirror.com/2014/04/20/...ion-in-lunacy/
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #21016  
Old Posted Apr 22, 2014, 3:54 PM
HossC's Avatar
HossC HossC is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 4,244
Quote:
Originally Posted by MartinTurnbull View Post
I just came across this place, called "Mammy's Shack." Evidentally, it was in Culver City and famous for its squab dinners. Has anybody come across this before? Any specific address? Dates?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tourmaline View Post
5687 West Washington Blvd., CC

Noticed a few articles (Van Nuys News) about the place from '25 through mid '30s but have not been able to access them.
Following up on the Van Nuys News references, they seem to be about a business called Mammy's Shack at 16918 Ventura Boulevard.

The articles aren't accessible without a subscription, but they do include a freely readable transcript of the text. The text has been scanned through a computer, so some parts are more intelligible than others.

I also found a Microsoft Word document about Sons of the Pioneers musician Hugh Farr. It includes the paragraph below:

Quote:
The family moved around a lot, eventually ending up in Encino, California, where Hugh tried construction work. Before too long he had found work at Mammy's Shack, a bar on Ventura Boulevard and he decided making music was more in his line. He stayed at Mammy's Shack for three years until the place burned to the ground.
The story seems to be confirmed by a PDF file about the Farr Brothers.


-----------


Great work by everyone who posted above. So many interesting things to read .
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #21017  
Old Posted Apr 22, 2014, 10:52 PM
CityBoyDoug CityBoyDoug is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 2,868
Quote:
Originally Posted by GaylordWilshire View Post
BLACK DAHLIA CASE SOLVED

This 13-year-old boy did it:


(He went on to kill Jimmy Hoffa and Jon Benet Ramsey)


Another retired police detective--not the doting son of Evil Genius George Hodel--has solved the case:

http://ladailymirror.com/2014/04/20/...ion-in-lunacy/
Someone's been ridin' around in the Mystery Machine.....

Reply With Quote
     
     
  #21018  
Old Posted Apr 23, 2014, 2:40 AM
ethereal_reality's Avatar
ethereal_reality ethereal_reality is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Lafayette/West Lafayette IN, Purdue U.
Posts: 16,325

ebay

-there was no address included in the ebay ad.

the complete photo

ebay

Last edited by ethereal_reality; Apr 23, 2014 at 2:59 AM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #21019  
Old Posted Apr 23, 2014, 2:48 AM
ethereal_reality's Avatar
ethereal_reality ethereal_reality is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Lafayette/West Lafayette IN, Purdue U.
Posts: 16,325
transit slide 1956.

pan right to see the green pickup truck...it's very cool.--------> Was it owned by the railway?

ebay
__

Last edited by ethereal_reality; Apr 23, 2014 at 3:14 AM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #21020  
Old Posted Apr 23, 2014, 2:51 AM
ethereal_reality's Avatar
ethereal_reality ethereal_reality is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Lafayette/West Lafayette IN, Purdue U.
Posts: 16,325
ephemera


ebay
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts

Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Photography Forums > Found City Photos
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 9:27 PM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.