Baseline BRT EA

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by PHrenetic

Good Day.

It keeps getting presented as serious, unless it's not,
for certain momentary advantages in whichever breeze is blowing at the time in front of whichever cameras and audiences of the moment......

And the Kettle Bridge is pretty much exactly as far along (or not, depending on how you use your verbs),
since the NCC studies were last canned by both provinces.
It was kinda re-animated by federal ministers in the previous budget as back on the table to study if it could be studied.

So, unless things really magic themselves up, both (or neither) are just as (not) likely.


Bureaucratese !

Are there even plans, renderings or drawings of what transit over the PoW would look like?

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Are there even plans, renderings or drawings of what transit over the PoW would look like?

The closest I think we've ever gotten is the STO's early plans for their LRT (unless you count MOOSE...)

What ever happened to that presentation from the STO to city staff that was supposed to happen with regards to the status of the PoW bridge as a secondary rail link? Wasn't that supposed to be a couple of months ago by now?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

The closest I think we've ever gotten is the STO's early plans for their LRT (unless you count MOOSE...)

What ever happened to that presentation from the STO to city staff that was supposed to happen with regards to the status of the PoW bridge as a secondary rail link? Wasn't that supposed to be a couple of months ago by now?

I don't remember that. Did I miss it?

IFrom what I recall the STO or Ville de Gatineau haven't been very interested in PoW in quite some time.

[TransitZilla]

Originally Posted by Multi-modal

Speaking of those TVMs, when will they be activated! Its been years...

Good question!

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Multi-modal

Speaking of those TVMs, when will they be activated! Its been years...

Waiting for Federal funding to purchase ink for the machines.

[TransitZilla]

2021 Draft Budget has $2.4M in funding.

"Funding for refinement of right of way requirements and prepartory work in
preparation of possible stimulus funding. This project will proceed only when Federal and/or Provincial funding has been secured."

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by bradnixon

2021 Draft Budget has $2.4M in funding.

"Funding for refinement of right of way requirements and prepartory work in
preparation of possible stimulus funding. This project will proceed only when Federal and/or Provincial funding has been secured."

That’s good news. With any luck it could be funded and possibly even completed before Stage 2 is complete.

[TransitZilla]

The Transportation budget forecasts $30M in budget authority on the project for each of the next 3 years (spending $6M in 2022, $18M in 2023, $28M in 2024, and presumably more beyond that). Strangely, it lists the project completion date as 2022 which will clearly not happen.

Baseline is also mentioned as part of the "2021 TMP Transit Priority Network" with $22.5M in 2021. The budget document for that project includes this passage:
"Part of this funding will be used for the design of the Blair Road widening for bus only and high occupancy vehicle lanes (Blair Station to Innes Road). The remaining funds will be allocated for construction of the Baseline Transit Priority Measures (Bayshore Station to Baseline Station) with future
funding needed to fully fund construction."

(Source: https://app05.ottawa.ca/sirepub/view...&fileid=664556, pages 68 and 69).

[OCCheetos]

Not really related to the BRT, but I find it interesting that on Pages 49-50, and 89 the diagrams shown contain rail lines that haven't existed in decades.

[OCCheetos]

In today's council meeting Riley Brockington asked a very direct question about where the Baseline BRT lies in terms of funding priorities, and Manconi's response was that staff would recommend funding Stage 3 extensions of the Confederation Line first.

https://youtu.be/gmE8z2gz1s8?t=16097
at 4:28:17

[TransitZilla]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

In today's council meeting Riley Brockington asked a very direct question about where the Baseline BRT lies in terms of funding priorities, and Manconi's response was that staff would recommend funding Stage 3 extensions of the Confederation Line first.

https://youtu.be/gmE8z2gz1s8?t=16097
at 4:28:17

Interesting. But IIRC correctly, the city is planning to put up $0 towards Stage 3. They can ask for whatever they like, but senior levels of gov't might be tempted to look further down the priority list, and as Councillor Brockington rightly points out, Baseline is a fraction of the cost of the others.

They seem to be expecting to get $ for Kanata and Barrhaven as a package... is that really realistic? Certainly a much stronger argument can be made for a Terry Fox extension than for a Fallowfield extension.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by bradnixon

Interesting. But IIRC correctly, the city is planning to put up $0 towards Stage 3. They can ask for whatever they like, but senior levels of gov't might be tempted to look further down the priority list, and as Councillor Brockington rightly points out, Baseline is a fraction of the cost of the others.

They seem to be expecting to get $ for Kanata and Barrhaven as a package... is that really realistic? Certainly a much stronger argument can be made for a Terry Fox extension than for a Fallowfield extension.

The City has an obsession with Stage 3, a $5B project that will do little to increase ridership or improve service. I hope the Feds and Province offer stimulus packages for more modest projects like the Baseline BRT, otherwise Ottawa won't see any transit expansion until $5B falls from the sky.

[Multi-modal]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

The City has an obsession with Stage 3, a $5B project that will do little to increase ridership or improve service. I hope the Feds and Province offer stimulus packages for more modest projects like the Baseline BRT, otherwise Ottawa won't see any transit expansion until $5B falls from the sky.

We could fund approximately 30 Baseline BRT projects for the same cost as Stage 3.

If I was a federal government stimulus allocator person, I would want to see that the City has done a comparative cost-benefit analysis to ensure the feds are getting the most bang for their buck. I don't think the City has done such a thing.

This politically drive Stage 3 hyper-focus is to the detriment of letting the best ideas and best business cases win-out, and ultimately its going to hurt the City. I'm not a Watson-hater, but when it comes to transit I think its time for a fresh vision with a more open-mind.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

In today's council meeting Riley Brockington asked a very direct question about where the Baseline BRT lies in terms of funding priorities, and Manconi's response was that staff would recommend funding Stage 3 extensions of the Confederation Line first.

https://youtu.be/gmE8z2gz1s8?t=16097
at 4:28:17

Not impressed with the City. They acknowledge that Baseline is further along but continue to prioritize Stage 3. We should not be pinning the $170 million Baseline with the $5B Stage 3 nor should we be presuming competition between the $3B STO tram with Stage 3, considering Ottawa has already received $3.5B or so for Stage 1 and 2.

[TransitZilla]

I agree with a lot of these sentiments.

I don't agree Stage 3 will do nothing to improve ridership or service. The new corridor between Eagleson and Terry Fox should significantly improve transit service to and within Kanata, for example.

But yes- it is frustrating that smaller, achievable projects are being held up because of parochialism, essentially. Many councillors don't seem to want anyone else to get anything until they get theirs first.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by bradnixon

I agree with a lot of these sentiments.

I don't agree Stage 3 will do nothing to improve ridership or service. The new corridor between Eagleson and Terry Fox should significantly improve transit service to and within Kanata, for example.

But yes- it is frustrating that smaller, achievable projects are being held up because of parochialism, essentially. Many councillors don't seem to want anyone else to get anything until they get theirs first.

The extensions to Terry Fox and Fallowfield are worthwhile, but Hazeldean and BTC will ad little value.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by bradnixon

I agree with a lot of these sentiments.

I don't agree Stage 3 will do nothing to improve ridership or service. The new corridor between Eagleson and Terry Fox should significantly improve transit service to and within Kanata, for example.

But yes- it is frustrating that smaller, achievable projects are being held up because of parochialism, essentially. Many councillors don't seem to want anyone else to get anything until they get theirs first.

And some councillors - hello, urban caucus - don't seem to want any urban transit in their wards at all, which is baffling.

[Williamoforange]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

And some councillors - hello, urban caucus - don't seem to want any urban transit in their wards at all, which is baffling.

Your answer may lie in the comments made by an urban councilor in regards to the development occurring in his ward vs in Kanata. I think they see transit upgrades of the High capacity mass transit variety as a pre-cursor to development that they don't want in their wards.

Along with the general comments made by them that prioritize without doubt other forms of transportation over public transit.

Now there is merit to realizing that those forms of transportation are valid solutions to the "last mile" problem, they just probably not be pushed as a replacement to transit that connects to the city at large. (Few Frequent routes vs many infrequent routes problem.)

[Nowhere]

I'm still expecting to see the Baseline BRT done before stage 3 is complete (if it ever happens). As governments are increasingly drowning in debt, I'm not expecting to see any large transit project for Ottawa in the next decade. I wouldn't be surprised if Kanata ended up getting a transitway instead of a LRT.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Williamoforange

Your answer may lie in the comments made by an urban councilor in regards to the development occurring in his ward vs in Kanata. I think they see transit upgrades of the High capacity mass transit variety as a pre-cursor to development that they don't want in their wards.

That mindset of councillors does nothing except pander to NIMBYism, incumbents, and the most conservative elements in society.

I still find it incredibly baffling that those mindsets - and the bike bros - are the only people urban councillors listen to. One of them in particular seems to want nothing to do with public transit, its users, or its infrastructure.