Atlanta Community Discussion Thread

[dante2308]

We created a place for that. This is a place to discuss the Atlanta community. While the race issue is relevant, a random political cartoon about Iraq and Obama is not. Please take it elsewhere as we need to preserve the integrity of the other topics of discussion.

[Fiorenza]

ok

[AtlMidtowner]

Originally Posted by dante2308

Highest income bracket by nationality: Nigerian-Americans.

I dont know where your statistics come from. If it is accurate, but I think it is totally inacurrate, then it probably is a statistic of only African immigrants, not comparing to Asian and middle-eastern immigrants. I did a little bit of research. I read the highest income immigrant group is from India. The second highest in Iran. Other nationalities arent even close!!

I dont know where Nigerian stands.

Most common professions for Indians: IT, medicine, hotel, and commercial real estate

Most common professons for Iranians: Engineering, residential & commercial real estate, (second generation, medicine)

I didnt pay attention to the others, excpet the lowest income group. You would expect it to be from Central America, but the lowest income group is actually Vietnamese!!

As for educational level, among African immigrants, 43.8% have college educations, and only 42.5% of Asian immigrants have college educations. Most African immigrants are professionals escaping civil war or unrest and/or poor economic conditions, and the non-educated African immigrants are mainly refugees (Somalia, Ethiopia, Sudan, Chad). There is no large-scale "labor immigration" from Africa to the USA as with Latinos, Philipinos and Chinese. The highest average educational level of any immigrant group in the USA is from Zimbabwe, then Botswana and then Malawi, exactly the opposite of what most people would expect, as these are the poorest or economically disastrous African countries. Unfortunately, the average income of African immigrants is still lower than the average Asian immigrant or the average caucasian American.

Of course a huge percentage of Asian immigrants were uneducated refugees from Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia. And the Phillipines for many years had a special relationship to the USA as a former territory and close ally after WWII in the cold war meaning working class Fillipinos immigrated to the USA.

In other words, educational level does not translate to higher income equitably among different immigrant groups.

(My father had a PhD, immigrated to the USA from Germany and had a low income as math professor!!! The funny thing is that my father was a German citizen, but born and raised in Switzerland, is considered a Swiss immigrant, but when he became US citizen, the do-do brain that inputed his passport said his place of birth is Swaziland!!! Guess they turned him into an African immigrant!!)

[Tombstoner]

There is a huge brain drain from Africa to the West. It is true that the most educated people leave, but the educational standards are not that high. The best university in Botswana (UB) is on par with a good US high school. Zimbabwe's U of Z used to be very respectable (on par with a good community college here) but that has suffered under Mugabe like everything else.
My point is that I would not match the educational backgrounds of most Africans with those immigrants from the Sub-continent or Asia and then correlate that to income. You can't compare someone with a BS (or even PhD) from UB with someone with a BS from an IIT.

[dante2308]

Originally Posted by AtlMidtowner

I dont know where your statistics come from. If it is accurate, but I think it is totally inacurrate, then it probably is a statistic of only African immigrants, not comparing to Asian and middle-eastern immigrants. I did a little bit of research. I read the highest income immigrant group is from India. The second highest in Iran. Other nationalities arent even close!!

I dont know where Nigerian stands.

Most common professions for Indians: IT, medicine, hotel, and commercial real estate

Most common professons for Iranians: Engineering, residential & commercial real estate, (second generation, medicine)

I didnt pay attention to the others, excpet the lowest income group. You would expect it to be from Central America, but the lowest income group is actually Vietnamese!!

As for educational level, among African immigrants, 43.8% have college educations, and only 42.5% of Asian immigrants have college educations. Most African immigrants are professionals escaping civil war or unrest and/or poor economic conditions, and the non-educated African immigrants are mainly refugees (Somalia, Ethiopia, Sudan, Chad). There is no large-scale "labor immigration" from Africa to the USA as with Latinos, Philipinos and Chinese. The highest average educational level of any immigrant group in the USA is from Zimbabwe, then Botswana and then Malawi, exactly the opposite of what most people would expect, as these are the poorest or economically disastrous African countries. Unfortunately, the average income of African immigrants is still lower than the average Asian immigrant or the average caucasian American.

Of course a huge percentage of Asian immigrants were uneducated refugees from Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia. And the Phillipines for many years had a special relationship to the USA as a former territory and close ally after WWII in the cold war meaning working class Fillipinos immigrated to the USA.

In other words, educational level does not translate to higher income equitably among different immigrant groups.

(My father had a PhD, immigrated to the USA from Germany and had a low income as math professor!!! The funny thing is that my father was a German citizen, but born and raised in Switzerland, is considered a Swiss immigrant, but when he became US citizen, the do-do brain that inputed his passport said his place of birth is Swaziland!!! Guess they turned him into an African immigrant!!)

Hmm, the statistic turns out to be inaccurate. I cannot find it anymore. Wikipedia cannot be trusted!

In any case, it flies in the face of the argument that Firoenza was making. The darkening of an area or the addition of immigrants does not make the place automatically worse statistically. contrary to popular opinion Americans and or white people do not have a monopoly on intelligence or high income brackets.

[dante2308]

Originally Posted by Tombstoner

There is a huge brain drain from Africa to the West. It is true that the most educated people leave, but the educational standards are not that high. The best university in Botswana (UB) is on par with a good US high school. Zimbabwe's U of Z used to be very respectable (on par with a good community college here) but that has suffered under Mugabe like everything else.
My point is that I would not match the educational backgrounds of most Africans with those immigrants from the Sub-continent or Asia and then correlate that to income. You can't compare someone with a BS (or even PhD) from UB with someone with a BS from an IIT.

Jamaican universities are on par. Let me just point that out. The high school are above par.

[Fiorenza]

I read that Jamaica has among the highest crime statistics in the world.

[Andrea]

Originally Posted by dante2308

In any case, it flies in the face of the argument that Firoenza was making. The darkening of an area or the addition of immigrants does not make the place automatically worse statistically. contrary to popular opinion Americans and or white people do not have a monopoly on intelligence or high income brackets.

I'd have to agree that most of the people I've met who've moved here from other countries are better educated and at least as smart as me or anyone in my family. Both of my parents were the first in their families to finish high school, and it was often touch and go for me, too.

[dante2308]

Originally Posted by Fiorenza

I read that Jamaica has among the highest crime statistics in the world.

Yep, your point or are you just attacking my home nation?

I will not have that. There are lines you do not cross.

[testarossa50]

Originally Posted by AtlMidtowner

The highest average educational level of any immigrant group in the USA is from Zimbabwe, then Botswana and then Malawi, exactly the opposite of what most people would expect, as these are the poorest or economically disastrous African countries.

Although I don't disagree with your point, as someone very interested in Africa, I must point out that this statement is completely wrong. Botswana is among the wealthiest and most stable countries in Africa; its main problem is AIDS. Zimbabwe historically is also relatively stable and prosperous--don't let the news make you think it is forever a backetcase--and its capital is westernized and modern. Malawi is small and poor, but not an outright disaster.

The "worst" countries from an economic and stability standpoint are lower profile: Burundi, Central African Republic, Guinea-Bissau, Niger, Chad, Liberia (also the Congo Kinshasa, but that's a whole different ballgame). Most of these countries lack anything at all resembling the educational opportunities found in Botswana or Zimbabwe. It is from the middle-sized, more-stable African countries that professionals usually originate, not from the bottom of the barrel.

[AtlMidtowner]

Originally Posted by Fiorenza

I read that Jamaica has among the highest crime statistics in the world.

Before you pat yourself on the back, you better look at your own cess-pool.
I think the USA is pretty much on the bottom of every list!!!

Pretty much any and every country that has elitist policies toward the lower 25% of the population will have high crime rates, and the USA is one of those countries. The USA is on the bottom of the barrel in most statistics compared to countries of similar economic level. Americans dont take responsibilty, whether on a personal or communal level, so obviously we have lots of problems.

When I studied international political science, unrest within countries causing political, economic and criminal activity was often caused by what can be labelled "Expectation Theory of Unrest." In other words, poverty alone is not what causes revolution and crime, but expectations that are not met by large segments of the population. If you stop and think, you will see how that makes so much sense! It will explain so much in why revolutionary activity started in some areas and not others (it wasnt that Cuba and USSR was exporting revolution) and why some areas have higher crime rates than others!!

[Tombstoner]

Originally Posted by testarossa50

Although I don't disagree with your point, as someone very interested in Africa, I must point out that this statement is completely wrong. Botswana is among the wealthiest and most stable countries in Africa; its main problem is AIDS. Zimbabwe historically is also relatively stable and prosperous--don't let the news make you think it is forever a backetcase--and its capital is westernized and modern. Malawi is small and poor, but not an outright disaster.

You're right about Botswana and Malawi. Gaborone (the capital of Botswana) could easily pass for south OTP Atlanta (with fewer trees and more crappy pizza joints). Zim is not nearly as prosperous, however. Even when Zim was at it's best and Harare was pretty cosmopolitan with a very "white" profile (maybe 8 years ago) it had a HUGE dirt-poor rural population. Malawi, as you say, is still struggling. But the essence of your point is dead-on: these are not the basketcases of Africa with stick-thin people with begging bowls. And their populations are relatively well-educated.

Still, educational institutions are very basic in countries with little indigenous experience of academic culture--even in Botswana where the government lavishes money on their schools, very little original research goes on. Essentially, the best and brightest go to the US or Europe for their education and the kids that attend local schools get a pretty lame education (though their government encourages them to think that they are hot stuff so they don't demand higher quality; witness someone from Jamaica insisting that their universities are on par with US universities). That's not a slam against Jamaica (it's a beautiful country and I've met some world-class scholars and writers from there), but dude...get a clue.

[dante2308]

Originally Posted by Tombstoner

You're right about Botswana and Malawi. Gaborone (the capital of Botswana) could easily pass for south OTP Atlanta (with fewer trees and more crappy pizza joints). Zim is not nearly as prosperous, however. Even when Zim was at it's best and Harare was pretty cosmopolitan with a very "white" profile (maybe 8 years ago) it had a HUGE dirt-poor rural population. Malawi, as you say, is still struggling. But the essence of your point is dead-on: these are not the basketcases of Africa with stick-thin people with begging bowls. And their populations are relatively well-educated.

Still, educational institutions are very basic in countries with little indigenous experience of academic culture--even in Botswana where the government lavishes money on their schools, very little original research goes on. Essentially, the best and brightest go to the US or Europe for their education and the kids that attend local schools get a pretty lame education (though their government encourages them to think that they are hot stuff so they don't demand higher quality; witness someone from Jamaica insisting that their universities are on par with US universities). That's not a slam against Jamaica (it's a beautiful country and I've met some world-class scholars and writers from there), but dude...get a clue.

No, Jamaican Universities are not better than US Universities in general, but they are inside the accreditation system so a bachelors in UWI or UTech is treated exactly like one in the US. There really isn't anything particularly inferior about either university. My mother headed up the business school at UTech and my aunt was a professor while I was in high school. It is like any other college. Good professors, classrooms, books, computers. What exactly is it that a college needs to be good exactly because as far as I can tell, the professors make the school and the government can more than afford the best money can buy.

[Tombstoner]

Originally Posted by dante2308

No, Jamaican Universities are not better than US Universities in general, but they are inside the accreditation system so a bachelors in UWI or UTech is treated exactly like one in the US. There really isn't anything particularly inferior about either university. My mother headed up the business school at UTech and my aunt was a professor while I was in high school. It is like any other college. Good professors, classrooms, books, computers. What exactly is it that a college needs to be good exactly because as far as I can tell, the professors make the school and the government can more than afford the best money can buy.

I said nothing about "inferior." I hire UWI professors as consultants for a project I run in Guyana--amazing guys. But they would acknowledge that top tier Jamaican schools are probably on par with mediocre US schools and that "student culture" is sorely lacking. That doesn't reflect on individuals as much as it does on economic conditions, technological infrastructure, potentials for internships in top companies, deep-rooted social immobility/prejudices, etc.

[Andrea]

Originally Posted by Tombstoner

It is true that the most educated people leave, but the educational standards are not that high. The best university in Botswana (UB) is on par with a good US high school. Zimbabwe's U of Z used to be very respectable (on par with a good community college here) ...

Just sticking up for my old alma mater for a sec. For a lot of us community college was an enormous blessing, especially if you were working and raising kids and had to go at night. I don't know whether DeKalb was considered good or not, but it was the only way to get my credits in. It takes FOREVER but it does work.

[testarossa50]

Originally Posted by Tombstoner

I hire UWI professors as consultants for a project I run in Guyana--amazing guys.

Wow, you must do something interesting...

[Tombstoner]

Originally Posted by Andrea

Just sticking up for my old alma mater for a sec. For a lot of us community college was an enormous blessing, especially if you were working and raising kids and had to go at night. I don't know whether DeKalb was considered good or not, but it was the only way to get my credits in. It takes FOREVER but it does work.

I think you need to "stick up" for a community college only when someone is putting it down.

[Tombstoner]

Originally Posted by testarossa50

Wow, you must do something interesting...

It was really interesting when I was a younger person. As a fogie, it gets a little wearing.

[AtlMidtowner]

Today when I was checking on income levels of various immigrant groups coming to the USA, I was reading that over 24% of post-graduate degree recipients from African Universities end up working in Western countries, amounting to over $4 billion subsidies to Western countries from Africa.

You cant blame the graduates for leaving their countries, and you cant blame the Western countries for accepting them; however, western countries should recognize the huge financial subsidy that African countries are GIVING to western countries

[testarossa50]

Originally Posted by AtlMidtowner

Today when I was checking on income levels of various immigrant groups coming to the USA, I was reading that over 24% of post-graduate degree recipients from African Universities end up working in Western countries, amounting to over $4 billion subsidies to Western countries from Africa.

You cant blame the graduates for leaving their countries, and you cant blame the Western countries for accepting them; however, western countries should recognize the huge financial subsidy that African countries are GIVING to western countries

How does this compare to African heads of state and economic ministers studying at Yale?

Also, strictly economically speaking this implies that African countries are investing far too much in secondary education (and presumably far too little in primary education & infrastructure).

How did you arrive at $4bn?

It was really interesting when I was a younger person. As a fogie, it gets a little wearing.

Yeah, well it's a year after I'm out of college and I'm already worn out from traveling all over hell's half acre (for eg I've got ATL > Vancouver BC > Oakland > ATL in the next three days, and that's relatively relaxed). If I were going places like Harare I would at least be gathering some stories, and doing projects that are perhaps more interesting.