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  #41  
Old Posted Aug 22, 2014, 12:48 PM
New Brisavoine New Brisavoine is offline
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+ the Greek metro areas and Istanbul. Be prepared for a surprise regarding Athens (the 2011 census showed the population of Attica was lower than previously thought).

This year Eurostat has provided GDP figures for the Turkish regions, so we can for the first time calculate the GDP per capita of Istanbul. The population of Istanbul is derived from the address based population registration system which accurately pinpoints the population of Turkey at their real place of residence (this boosted the population of Istanbul, because people previously reported as living in Anatolian villages are now accurately reported as living where they really live, i.e. Istanbul).

GDP per capita in 2011 (in US dollars, at market exchange rates, not at purchasing power parity):
- Canton of Geneva: $118,721 (figure inflated by commuters coming from neighboring areas in France and Switzerland)
- Canton of Zurich: $104,733
- cantons of Basel-Stadt & Basel-Land + German district of Lörrach: $93,436 (figure inflated by commuters coming from neighboring areas in Switzerland and France)

- Oslo metro area: between $84,000 and $94,000 (depending on the definition of the metro area)
SWITZERLAND (entire country): $83,679 ($51,352 at PPP)
- Stockholm County: $78,301
- Munich metro area: $71,460
- Paris Region: $71,307
- Copenhagen metro area: $70,128
- Helsinki-Uusimaa Region: $64,385
- Brussels-Capital + Flemish & Walloon Brabant: $64,322
- Dublin metro area: $62,406
- Rhine-Main metro area (Frankfurt-Wiesbaden-Mainz): $60,332
- Vienna metro area: $58,836
- Antwerp arrondissement: $58,318
- Stuttgart metro area: $57,832
- Hamburg metro area: $57,036

- Greater London + 6 home counties: $54,802
- Randstad (Amsterdam, The Hague, Rotterdam, Utrecht): $52,537
- Milan metro area: $52,105
- Lyon metro area: $50,738
THE NETHERLANDS (entire country): $49,968
AUSTRIA (entire country): $49,566
ÉIRE (entire country): $49,344
- Rhine-Ruhr metro area (Essen-Düsseldorf-Cologne): $47,914
- Edinburgh metro area: $47,913
- Nice-Monaco (Alpes-Maritimes + Principality of Monaco): $47,763 (figure heavily weighed down by the numerous retirees living in the area)
- Toulouse metro area: $46,729

BELGIUM (entire country): $46,539
GERMANY (entire country): $45,293
- Rome metro area: $45,210
- Bristol metro area: $44,793
- Marseille metro area: $44,582
- Bordeaux metro area: $43,251
- Florence metro area: $42,922
FRANCE (entire country): $42,812

- Turin province: $42,192
- Madrid province: $40,940
- Berlin metro area: $39,046
- Bilbao province: $39,039
UK (entire country): $38,964
- Liège arrondissement: $37,892
ITALY (entire country): $37,025
- Barcelona province: $35,861
- Glasgow metro area: $35,278
- Athens region (Attica): $35,263
- West Yorkshire metro area (Leeds-Bradford): $34,463
- Manchester metro area: $34,255
- Newcastle metro area: $33,287
- Birmingham metro area: ca. $32,000
- Lisbon metro area: $31,333
SPAIN (entire country): $31,173
- Liverpool metro area: $29,783
- Valencia province: $28,827
- South Yorkshire metro area (Sheffield-Doncaster): $27,593

GREECE (entire country): $26,104
- Palermo province: $25,549
- Thessaloniki regional unit: $22,612
PORTUGAL (entire country): $22,570
- Naples metro area: $22,150

- Porto metro area: $19,634
- Istanbul province: $15,618
TURKEY (entire country): $10,413
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  #42  
Old Posted Aug 23, 2014, 9:18 AM
New Brisavoine New Brisavoine is offline
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+ the Polish metro areas.

GDP per capita in 2011 (in US dollars, at market exchange rates, not at purchasing power parity):
- Canton of Geneva: $118,721 (figure inflated by commuters coming from neighboring areas in France and Switzerland)
- Canton of Zurich: $104,733
- cantons of Basel-Stadt & Basel-Land + German district of Lörrach: $93,436 (figure inflated by commuters coming from neighboring areas in Switzerland and France)

- Oslo metro area: between $84,000 and $94,000 (depending on the definition of the metro area)
SWITZERLAND (entire country): $83,679 ($51,352 at PPP)
- Stockholm County: $78,301
- Munich metro area: $71,460
- Paris Region: $71,307
- Copenhagen metro area: $70,128
- Helsinki-Uusimaa Region: $64,385
- Brussels-Capital + Flemish & Walloon Brabant: $64,322
- Dublin metro area: $62,406
- Rhine-Main metro area (Frankfurt-Wiesbaden-Mainz): $60,332
- Vienna metro area: $58,836
- Antwerp arrondissement: $58,318
- Stuttgart metro area: $57,832
- Hamburg metro area: $57,036

- Greater London + 6 home counties: $54,802
- Randstad (Amsterdam, The Hague, Rotterdam, Utrecht): $52,537
- Milan metro area: $52,105
- Lyon metro area: $50,738
THE NETHERLANDS (entire country): $49,968
AUSTRIA (entire country): $49,566
ÉIRE (entire country): $49,344
- Rhine-Ruhr metro area (Essen-Düsseldorf-Cologne): $47,914
- Edinburgh metro area: $47,913
- Nice-Monaco (Alpes-Maritimes + Principality of Monaco): $47,763 (figure heavily weighed down by the numerous retirees living in the area)
- Toulouse metro area: $46,729

BELGIUM (entire country): $46,539
GERMANY (entire country): $45,293
- Rome metro area: $45,210
- Bristol metro area: $44,793
- Marseille metro area: $44,582
- Bordeaux metro area: $43,251
- Florence metro area: $42,922
FRANCE (entire country): $42,812

- Turin province: $42,192
- Madrid province: $40,940
- Berlin metro area: $39,046
- Bilbao province: $39,039
UK (entire country): $38,964
- Liège arrondissement: $37,892
ITALY (entire country): $37,025
- Barcelona province: $35,861
- Glasgow metro area: $35,278
- Athens region (Attica): $35,263
- West Yorkshire metro area (Leeds-Bradford): $34,463
- Manchester metro area: $34,255
- Newcastle metro area: $33,287
- Birmingham metro area: ca. $32,000
- Lisbon metro area: $31,333
SPAIN (entire country): $31,173
- Liverpool metro area: $29,783
- Valencia province: $28,827
- Warsaw metro area: $27,914
- South Yorkshire metro area (Sheffield-Doncaster): $27,593

GREECE (entire country): $26,104
- Palermo province: $25,549
- Thessaloniki regional unit: $22,612
PORTUGAL (entire country): $22,570
- Naples metro area: $22,150

- Poznan metro area: $20,446
- Porto metro area: $19,634
- Wroclaw metro area: $16,638
- Katowice-Bytom-Gliwice metro area: $15,653

- Istanbul province: $15,618
- Tricity (Gdansk) metro area: $14,976
- Krakow metro area: $14,942
POLAND (entire country): $13,400

TURKEY (entire country): $10,413
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  #43  
Old Posted Aug 24, 2014, 4:03 AM
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Wow, how can Bordeaux be poorer than Marseille?

I've never been to Marseille, but thought it had some significant economic issues. I have been to Bordeaux and it seemed very rich, in fact it felt richer than anywhere in France outside of Paris. The city center is very posh and upscale, and the suburbs are quite nice. Marseille looks relatively poor on Google streetview, but obviously that can be misleading.

And Athens richer than Manchester and Birmingham? I'm not saying it isn't true, but you sure wouldn't know it if you visited these places.
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  #44  
Old Posted Aug 24, 2014, 8:35 AM
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^ Downtown Bordeaux's been undergoing some significant refurbishment for a decade or so. That's how a lot of it looks well-off today, but I heard hundreds of times it looked neglected before. I think Marseille is in that kind of trouble, some neglect due to a lack of will from local politicians. There's nonetheless some money out there. Overall, France's Mediterranean coast is everything but poor and I wouldn't worry about them.

In fact, most concerns go to the northern regions (especially Nord-Pas-de-Calais and Lorraine) that have lost their manufacturing jobs over the past decades. That being said, I recently read Lille was not doing so bad now. I don't like their mayor. She's a pain nationwide, but she's also often mentioned for having done a pretty good job for her city. So, I guess I have to give her credit for that.
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  #45  
Old Posted Aug 24, 2014, 10:59 AM
New Brisavoine New Brisavoine is offline
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The idea that Marseille is poor is a myth, based on a few observations of immigrant neighborhoods near the city center. The suburbs of Marseille are rich, as well as its southern quarters, and the port of Marseille brings in lots of revenues.

The southern quarters of the city, where the Marseille bourgeoisie live:



They live in villas like these:











In the suburbs there are many middle-class areas like these:





Some sections of the busy port (I believe it's the busiest oil port in Europe after Rotterdam; non-oil freight is less developed, due to the rigid unions there):











And of course the city center, for all its grit, remains a very interesting place, much more clean than Naples, and more or less on par with Barcelona in terms of grit and cleanliness.

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  #46  
Old Posted Aug 24, 2014, 11:20 AM
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For an idea of economic size:

GDP in 2011:
- province of Barcelona: 198 billion US dollars
- province of Rome: 194
- Bouches-du-Rhône (the department of Marseille): 88.2
- provinces of Naples + Caserta: 87.7
- province of Valencia: 74
- Alpes-Maritimes (department of Nice and Cannes) + Principality of Monaco: 53
- province of Genoa: 34
- province of Palermo: 32
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  #47  
Old Posted Aug 24, 2014, 11:44 AM
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^ Yeah. It's no part of what foreigners call the Riviera, but there's surely some money all along the coast and in Marseille in particular.

I'm just annoyed by the time it takes to actually build the couple of highrises planned on the docks... Talking about these. How does it take so long when it's right on that wealthy coast? That surely doesn't help to change that sorry reputation of the city that has it too slow and gritty.
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  #48  
Old Posted Aug 24, 2014, 6:11 PM
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Wow, Marseille looks beautiful. I've always been fascinated by that city, as it seems like a rougher, mysterious, undiscovered Barcelona, though obviously with a strong Maghreb accent. I think I liked the town ever since I saw that 1970's movie The French Connection. And I love bouillabaisse.

Bordeaux still surprises me, though. It really does feel affluent, at least in the parts I visited, but I understand that visitors often get an incorrect impression.
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  #49  
Old Posted Aug 24, 2014, 7:11 PM
New Brisavoine New Brisavoine is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
a rougher, mysterious, undiscovered Barcelona, though obviously with a strong Maghreb accent.
The Maghreb accent is mostly an inner city thing. The suburbs are much more "white".

At the 2011 census, 6.7% of the population in the city of Marseille proper were Maghreban immigrants (this does not include the children and grand-children of Maghreban immigrants born on French soil), whereas in the overall metro area, the Maghreban immigrants made up only 4.9% of the population. This means in the suburbs and commuter belt the Maghreban immigrants make up only 3.0% of the population.

Maghreban immigrants at the 2011 census:
- Marseille city proper: 6.7% of the total population
- suburbs and commuter belt: 3.0%
MARSEILLE METRO AREA: 4.9%

For comparison, this is the situation in Paris:
- Paris city proper: 5.0%
- suburbs and commuter belt: 5.1%
PARIS METRO AREA: 5.1%
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  #50  
Old Posted Aug 24, 2014, 8:03 PM
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Bah, there's no problem about any Maghreb accent or whatever anyway. Obviously, our kids will have some much better accents than ours, and then their own kids will do the same, and so on and on.

And the world would better get ready for the holy French language, eh, cause it's actually the conqueror. What? Isn't it?
Easy, easy, y'all so freaking touchy ... There's no trolling here, just some teasing.
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  #51  
Old Posted Aug 24, 2014, 10:24 PM
New Brisavoine New Brisavoine is offline
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I think he meant Maghreban accent as in "a Maghreban touch".
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  #52  
Old Posted Aug 24, 2014, 11:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by New Brisavoine View Post
I think he meant Maghreban accent as in "a Maghreban touch".
Yeah, I meant it as "touch of Maghreb", not that Marseille has an accent influenced by Maghreb French. I don't speak French beyond simple phrases and can't tell the accent differences in Metropolitan France anyways.

I always thought that Marseille had lots of people descended from Maghreb, not necessarily immigrants but second-third generation Algerians, Moroccans and the like, and "native" French relocated back to Metropolitan France following independence.
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  #53  
Old Posted Aug 24, 2014, 11:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
I always thought that Marseille had lots of people descended from Maghreb, not necessarily immigrants but second-third generation Algerians, Moroccans and the like, and "native" French relocated back to Metropolitan France following independence.
Marseille is a Mediterranean emporium. It has people from all over the Mediterranean: Italians (LOTS of Italians and people of Italian descent), Corsicans, Greeks, Armenians, Levantines, Jews, Maghrebans, Pieds-Noirs (Europeans from North Africa), and even Spaniards (although less so than Italians). The native Provençal population has left its accent (language accent) on the whole population, but the majority of the population is now of foreign descent (mostly European, particularly Italian).
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