General Phoenix Metro Discussion Thread

[somethingfast]

Originally Posted by PHXFlyer11

Saying you won't support a tax-payer funded arena because the Suns aren't playing well is ridiculous. It'd be one thing if the team wasn't spending money and trying to win, but we all know they are. It's a difficult business. A new arena and practice facilities I would argue could actually help in recruiting top-tier free agents.

Ideally I'd like to see some sort of public/private partnership with additional commercial and residential development as part of the deal.

That argument is the same old tired song and dance that started the "public funded" craze back in the late 80's/early 90's. my primary criticism here is that owners put too much of the onus on the public to foot the bill. and we DON'T get a competitive product for the most part. Coyotes. One really good season in 20? Suns. One good playoff run (sort of) since 2006? Cardinals are the only exception and we're still only talking 3 winning seasons in 25+. Owners and players reap most of the rewards and should foot a commensurate amount of the bill.

We all know there's an economic life for most entertainment venues before substantial renovations are needed and, ultimately, replacement. that's not the issue. the issue is the absurd demand that "we build it for them or they leave". why doesn't the NFL put away some of their substantial cash flow each year toward a stadium renewal/building program? Ditto the others? oh that's right...because we culturally worship sports now and they don't have to. The net gain to the public is absolutely less than an equal investment in just about anything else i bet.

I like sports as much as the next guy but we gotta stop drinking the kool aid. if a team is threatening to leave because the taxpayer won't step up, let them. they probably aren't very good anyway. and eventually another team will move into the 15 largest TV market in the country anyway...

[PHXFlyer11]

Originally Posted by somethingfast

Suns. One good playoff run (sort of) since 2006?

Just blatantly garbage. The Suns made the playoffs every year from 1989 - 2001. That is the twelfth longest streak in NBA history. In addition, they have the fourth best franchise winning percentage of all time. So they are in a down period. So what.

Originally Posted by somethingfast

We all know there's an economic life for most entertainment venues before substantial renovations are needed and, ultimately, replacement. that's not the issue. the issue is the absurd demand that "we build it for them or they leave". why doesn't the NFL put away some of their substantial cash flow each year toward a stadium renewal/building program? Ditto the others? oh that's right...because we culturally worship sports now and they don't have to. The net gain to the public is absolutely less than an equal investment in just about anything else i bet.

Teams do not have to pay for arena/stadiums because there is public demand for teams and municipalities are willing to fund stadiums to keep billion-dollar economic engines in town.

Originally Posted by somethingfast

I like sports as much as the next guy but we gotta stop drinking the kool aid. if a team is threatening to leave because the taxpayer won't step up, let them. they probably aren't very good anyway. and eventually another team will move into the 15 largest TV market in the country anyway...

I assure you that you don't. Your short-sighted views based-off of the recent success or failure of a team is ridiculous. Most teams are neither bad nor good historically. All teams go through long periods of success and failure. It's a reality.

Oh, and tell that to Seattle. They've had a lot of luck bringing in another NBA team. In this day and age NO major sports league is expanding. This means that cities will do anything they can to keep their teams. So if the Suns leave, nobody will move here. I promise you that. Same thing for the Cards, Coyotes and D-Backs.

Seattle still doesn't have basketball back, LA still doesn't have football back. Being a large market doesn't mean you're getting a team anytime in the next several decades. The reality is most people prefer to keep their teams and pay a little in taxes to keep them here because of the enjoyment they bring to our lives.

[biggus diggus]

Girls, you don't both have to be right.

[somethingfast]

Originally Posted by PHXFlyer11

Just blatantly garbage. The Suns made the playoffs every year from 1989 - 2001.

Did you notice I said "since 2006"? I realize they were perennials...way back in the day. But, let's be honest, this has been a mediocre program since Sarver took over save those great Nash/Stoudemire (yet brief) years.

And "billion-dollar engines"? For who? Show me some evidence that suggests major league sports pumps in dollars that couldn't be spent elsewhere and benefiting the larger economy more acutely. For every dollar a fan spends on sports, I would suggest that the multiplier effect is significantly less than if that same dollar were spent elsewhere. You see, professional sports is a microcosm of the income inequality issue that is just getting worse. Pro athletes (like billionaires) can only buy so many houses, cars, watches, refrigerators, etc. You spend that money to build a school and employ teachers or for infrastructure improvements that promote efficiency, the gains are realized by all.

Whatever...agree to disagree. I'm not buying into this straw man argument that professional sports "drives" economies in any way. Every dollar spent in an economy is not going to have the same velocity. As soon as those dollars get into the pockets of sports owners/players and their tiny little support structure, it flatlines.

[Jjs5056]

A simple search on Google on the economic impacts of NBA arenas on downtowns will quickly dispel any myth that they have a tangible impact on most cities/economies. It's become an easy argument for city leaders to use in order to justify the incentives that are offered, because - I assume - it's easy to use downtown revitalizations that would have occurred anyway because of the increased popularity in urban living preferences, and give credit to the arenas when in reality, it's all just circumstantial. Ultimately, a lot of it comes down to perceptions and pride. Does having an NBA franchise in downtown Phoenix/Phoenix in general have a perceived increase in the perception of Phoenix as a world class city? Will it be looked at unfavorably if it were to lose one? Are the incentives worth it for the civic pride that comes with supporting a local team, etc.?

Venues like Herberger, etc. may be subsidized, but they don't usually come back to the taxpayers every decade or so asking for billions of more dollars to renovate/rebuild in order to stay relevant, while threatening to take their product elsewhere if those dollars are not approved.

With that said, as I mentioned earlier, I am not opposed to taxpayers backing a new venue for the Suns. But, it would be extremely short-sighted for any agreement to not include several requirements that guarantee the public gets some sort of concrete value out of the development. This is especially true if the arena were to move locations - they should be required to replace the former arena with affordable housing, retail, and parking and/or other uses that generate tax revenues, provide housing for new residents, or services for existing ones. It will do downtown a great disservice for them to build an anti-urban fortress on a new site - that could have been home to a different mixed use project in the future - while the former arena sits empty in its current location, AND the site west of it remains an eyesore.

Phoenix needs to learn from the mistakes of other cities as well as the successes (such as San Diego). If they were to build in the warehouse district as alluded to, I assume they are speaking of the site east of the current arena, where a piece of the St. James Hotel currently sits. The Suns already own that land. Given what remains of the St. James - a piece of the lobby and nothing else - I wouldn't be opposed to them building there, as long as something is also built on the current arena's property. The destruction of the almost 100% in-tact block of Madison was a real shame IMO, but what's done is done, and the stump of a hotel they left in place is almost more insulting than it is admirable.

[PHX31]

So I came across a "Special Advertising Supplement" to The Arizona Republic from 1961 titled "Arizona Grows Where Water Flows" at an estate sale this past weekend. It is basically a small newspaper magazine put on by SRP touting the benefits of water resource planning. There are several small articles talking about the economic benefits of water and how much the Phoenix area is growing. There's even "A Message From President John F. Kennedy" (I'll type it out below).

What caught my eye was the cover of it and the view up North Central Avenue taken from the Westward Ho building.



You can see the old De Soto dealership (Circles Records), the Trinity Cathedral on Roosevelt, the 9-story glass office building on the NEC of Central/Roosevelt (used to be a hotel), and a bunch of other buildings that have been demo'd.

Do you notice that nice church across Central from the old Circles Records building? I can't fathom how a building like that (especially a church) could eventually get bulldozed for an empty lot. Either way, I had seen a glimpse of that building before in another old photograph, but not in such detail as on the cover of this newspaper.



You can just barely make it out in this great historic photo I saw on Vintage Phoenix's Facebook page:



As it turns out, we can see it in even more detail, as a twin is still standing in Tucson, the First Baptist Church, as I came to find out on Google Street View:



Everything looks to match up, from the front stairs to the pediment and columns, to the 2.5-3 story size with 1-story step down on the side of the building. The only main difference seems to be that Tucson's doesn't have the arched windows on the central back portion of the building. It's a shame that it is no longer standing as that would make such a great addition to North Central Avenue. Tucson should feel lucky to still have theirs.

Anyway, I'm always looking for little tidbits to try to piece together what downtown Phoenix once was. I hate knowing there used to be so many historic gems downtown, not everything used to be empty lots. At least things like this make it easier to imagine.

A Message From President John F. Kennedy
My heartiest congratulations to Arizona's Valley of the Sun and the Salt River Project on the occasion of the 50th anniversary of the completion of the Theodore Roosevelt Dam.

This historic anniversary will help focus the attention of the nation on the tremendous population growth and industrial expansion in the Phoenix area that was made possible by the abundant water and the electric energy produced by the pioneering Salt River federal reclamation project. Few places in the world can provide a more concentrated and inspiring illustration of the importance of multiple-purpose water resource development in a semi-arid area.

It is fitting that the great rubble-masonry dam on the Salt River, which is the key structure of the Salt River Project, bears the name of President Theodore Roosevelt. He truly appreciated the importance of resource conservation and development, and it was with his energetic and farsighted support that the federal reclamation program was initiated.

The people of the nation can be assured that the Department of the Interior, now headed by one of Arizona's own native sons, will actively push forward in the development of the resources of the West, a tradition launched by President Roosevelt so impressively on the Salt River a half century ago.

[TakeFive]

Great stuff PHX31.

Originally Posted by PHX31

So I came across a "Special Advertising Supplement" to The Arizona Republic from 1961 titled "Arizona Grows Where Water Flows" at an estate sale this past weekend. It is basically a small newspaper magazine put on by SRP touting the benefits of water resource planning. There are several small articles talking about the economic benefits of water and how much the Phoenix area is growing. There's even "A Message From President John F. Kennedy" (I'll type it out below).

A Message From President John F. Kennedy.
......

The people of the nation can be assured that the Department of the Interior, now headed by one of Arizona's own native sons, will actively push forward in the development of the resources of the West, a tradition launched by President Roosevelt so impressively on the Salt River a half century ago.

Just a sampling of quite a legacy Per Wikipedia:

Stewart Lee Udall (January 31, 1920 – March 20, 2010)[1][2] was an American politician and later, a federal government official. After serving three terms as a congressman from Arizona, he served as Secretary of the Interior from 1961 to 1969, under presidents John F. Kennedy and Lyndon B. Johnson.[3]

Udall played a key role in the enactment of environmental laws such as the Clear Air, Water Quality and Clean Water Restoration Acts and Amendments, the Wilderness Act of 1964, the Endangered Species Preservation Act of 1966, the Land and Water Conservation Fund Act of 1965, the Solid Waste Disposal Act of 1965, the National Trail System Act of 1968, and Wild and Scenic Rivers Act of 1968.[9]

A pioneer of the environmental movement, Udall warned of a conservation crisis in the 1960s with his best-selling book on environmental attitudes in the United States, The Quiet Crisis (1963).

I can still recall the "Environmental Movement" of the 1960's/1970's. Stewart along with his (also) iconic brother Mo Udall and Arizona were out front in those days. They had enthusiastic support from the Boulder/Colorado crowd. Kinda interesting to remember how progressive Arizona once was.

[TakeFive]

For anyone who may be interested in Pluto and its moons there's this:

Originally Posted by The Dirt

So f*cking epic:
https://vimeo.com/131079807

Also a brief discussion and photos HERE.

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by PHX31

Anyway, I'm always looking for little tidbits to try to piece together what downtown Phoenix once was. I hate knowing there used to be so many historic gems downtown, not everything used to be empty lots. At least things like this make it easier to imagine.

Thanks for posting. I do the same, frequently; it's crazy how recently some horrible decisions have been made - a Google Earth view from 2005 or so and Evans Churchill is almost entirely filled between the park and Roosevelt, for example.

I've always wanted to see the Moreland Parkway, which I assume looked similar to what remains of Portland between Central and 3rd Ave. When Portland on the Park is complete, that will be easily the most attractive area of all downtown - and there was an exact replica one block north bulldozed for the I-10.

I can understand old buildings torn down to make way for new ones - it sucks, but I can see the logic in wanting to embrace modernity. But, the amount that has been lost over pure speculation is really criminal. That the Church you posted is a parking lot is The worst example I can think of is Washington between 1st St and 2nd St. The JCPenney building and Fox Theatre used to stand there, with the former being demolished only a few years back. Imagine if Colliers and CityScape were connected by a restored movie palace and CityTarget with smaller ground level retailers? They could have eventually been wrapped in high-rise condos. Instead, there's a huge lot and huge hole in the center of downtown. (Now, imagine those there, along with a better-designed CityScape that engaged Luhrs; and, a Luhrs Central Building renovated into ground level retailers with offices/lofts above; leading into the start of the Warehouse District with the Madison and St. James hotels...)

I hate that glass building on the NEC of Roosevelt/Central, BTW. The tower is hideous, has no street presence, and the adjacent garage ruins 1st Street; same developer owns the parking lot on the SWC of Portland/1st Street - how much parking does one disgusting midrise need? That entire area - Roosevelt-Moreland, Central-1st Street should be cleared out (save for the firehouse). But, no, those were all kept and that Church knocked down.

[PHX31]

Yeah, I hear you. I wish what you are saying would be the case. However, it's just not as financially beneficial to the land owners I guess. For example, keeping a mid-rise tower and ample parking is much more valuable money-wise for that specific landowner than say keeping a historic church. Even if non-monetarily a great streetscape and a historic sense of place in our city would be more beneficial to most everyone else.

I went back and looked at the 2004 aerial, and you're right, a lot of Evans Churchill has been town down even since then. I can't really remember it happening. I wonder what used to be on the NWC of 1st St/Portland... it looks like it used to be decent. And I vaguely remember the house(s) across from the Knipe house. I'm sure they were pretty decrepit.

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by Jjs5056

Thanks for posting. I do the same, frequently; it's crazy how recently some horrible decisions have been made - a Google Earth view from 2005 or so and Evans Churchill is almost entirely filled between the park and Roosevelt, for example.

I've always wanted to see the Moreland Parkway, which I assume looked similar to what remains of Portland between Central and 3rd Ave. When Portland on the Park is complete, that will be easily the most attractive area of all downtown - and there was an exact replica one block north bulldozed for the I-10.

I can understand old buildings torn down to make way for new ones - it sucks, but I can see the logic in wanting to embrace modernity. But, the amount that has been lost over pure speculation is really criminal. That the Church you posted is a parking lot is The worst example I can think of is Washington between 1st St and 2nd St. The JCPenney building and Fox Theatre used to stand there, with the former being demolished only a few years back. Imagine if Colliers and CityScape were connected by a restored movie palace and CityTarget with smaller ground level retailers? They could have eventually been wrapped in high-rise condos. Instead, there's a huge lot and huge hole in the center of downtown. (Now, imagine those there, along with a better-designed CityScape that engaged Luhrs; and, a Luhrs Central Building renovated into ground level retailers with offices/lofts above; leading into the start of the Warehouse District with the Madison and St. James hotels...)

I hate that glass building on the NEC of Roosevelt/Central, BTW. The tower is hideous, has no street presence, and the adjacent garage ruins 1st Street; same developer owns the parking lot on the SWC of Portland/1st Street - how much parking does one disgusting midrise need? That entire area - Roosevelt-Moreland, Central-1st Street should be cleared out (save for the firehouse). But, no, those were all kept and that Church knocked down.

The entire Urban Renewal paradigm from the late 50's through the 1980's destroyed so much all across the country it is really sad. Tandem programs like public housing set back black communities decades most urban African American communities are doing worse than they did during segregation! (and they are doing better than the 1980's) its mind blowing...

anyway It seems like phoenix got especially screwed other cities did too like Houston (but they've done better at rebuilding) was our downtown already abandoned by the 1960's? It seems like it was very easy to tear old buildings down and then nothing was ever rebuilt. Was there nobody trying to prevent it?

[pbenjamin]

Originally Posted by Obadno

The entire Urban Renewal paradigm from the late 50's through the 1980's destroyed so much all across the country it is really sad. Tandem programs like public housing set back black communities decades most urban African American communities are doing worse than they did during segregation! (and they are doing better than the 1980's) its mind blowing...

anyway It seems like phoenix got especially screwed other cities did too like Houston (but they've done better at rebuilding) was our downtown already abandoned by the 1960's? It seems like it was very easy to tear old buildings down and then nothing was ever rebuilt. Was there nobody trying to prevent it?

It wasn't abandoned, but heading in that direction. The opening of Park Central in 1957 was a turning point. Goldwater's and Diamond's moved there and closed their downtown stores.

http://www.roguecolumnist.com/rogue_...n-part-ii.html

[soleri]

Historic preservation is always worth the effort but you need many visionaries in the mold of Terry Goddard to make it happen. The problem with Phoenix - and Arizona - is that it's simply a lot cheaper to tear down an old building since the tax valuation becomes almost nothing. Old buildings require upkeep, needless to say, and most Phoenix developers were not all that keen to preserve, let alone, restore old gems. It's a different story today and everyone at City Hall really gets it even if it is much too late.

My mother was on the board of the Christian Science Church at 1st St & Roosevelt for many years (the building is still there - a street church of some kind). Directly south of it was a two-story vintage apartment building in a classic Mediterranean style. The church owned it and decided to raze it for a parking lot. This was around 1980 and I begged her as passionately as possible not to. But she answered reasonably that the restoration of the building was simply beyond the means of her aging and declining congregation. In the blow-up picture that Phx31 posted, you can see it. There were others like in the area, along with some substantial houses. The bones that Phoenix recklessly gave up could have been the scaffolding for a real urban renaissance. The tragedy is that we'll never know what might have been.

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by Obadno

The entire Urban Renewal paradigm from the late 50's through the 1980's destroyed so much all across the country it is really sad. Tandem programs like public housing set back black communities decades most urban African American communities are doing worse than they did during segregation! (and they are doing better than the 1980's) its mind blowing...

anyway It seems like phoenix got especially screwed other cities did too like Houston (but they've done better at rebuilding) was our downtown already abandoned by the 1960's? It seems like it was very easy to tear old buildings down and then nothing was ever rebuilt. Was there nobody trying to prevent it?

A huge issue that compounded urban flight and the relocation of retail to the suburbs, etc. was the proposed I-10 freeway that was to - and did - cut through the center of the central city. In old aerials, you can see the damage this caused to the city between Roosevelt and McDowell, as properties were left to decay and investment was nonexistent in an area that was poised to see the wrecking ball at some point. Without the I-10, hundreds > thousands of homes in the style of Roosevelt and other historic neighborhoods would have remained in tact, and without that major hole in population, maybe the psychological distance between the older downtown and modern Midtown corridor wouldn't have been as pronounced? And, of course, we'd have the type of historic neighborhoods bordering our downtown and creating the critical mass so many other cities enjoy. This is one of the reasons I complain about 4-story apartments...it's not because I hate life, it's because this city is starting from scratch and it's going to take a heck of a lot of 4-story apartments to create the downtowns we see throughout the country that are surrounded by prospering neighborhoods.

Like I said, what happened prior to downtown's revitalization efforts truly began in the early 2000s was a shame, but I can understand the motives. It's the decisions that have been made since then that I find unforgivable. When we think of Phoenix's destruction, it's easy to point to the malls and car mania of the mid-century. But, there are so examples of how we have continued to destroy our past - destroying what everyone from Mayors to Councilmen to members of forums like this all agree are integral parts of a successful city.

1. I mentioned Evans Churchill which was almost fully in tact circa 2002 and is now a barren wasteland.
2. The destruction of the Madison and St. James Hotels which - along with the two warehouses west of Central, formed a nice strip of historic buildings along Madison that could have served as a perfect transition between downtown and the Warehouse District.
3. The destruction of the Luhrs Central Building for a generic hotel when there is a parking garage just west. This building could have been an amazing adaptive reuse case with room for several local businesses on the ground level, and lofts or creative office space above.
4. The Warehouse District - I'm going to post a short bit on this in the regular Phoenix thread, but it horrifies me to hear Mackay talking about the Warehouse District and how 1) she never knew places like The Duce existed, and 2) that area is poised to become 'the next big thing' in terms of business development. Together, the City and County did everything in their power to destroy a district that, while smaller than other cities' versions, had the biggest in-tact collection of unique, historic building stock positioned brilliantly close to anchors like Chase and USAC. For all that Roosevelt Row has become, it doesn't hold a candle to what was SO CLOSE to happening along Jackson. With all of the land available in the central city, the County decided its operations HAD to go where priceless structures stood. As a developer prepared to submit plans to turn the Chambers Warehouse adjacent to Union Station into lofts and retail space, and an artist prepared plans for turning the Santa Fe depot into a farmer's market, the County announced its plans to knock over an existing set of Borden Dairy buildings for a brand new jail. Additionally, the Santa Fe building was to be razed for a parking garage. After an outcry, the SF Depot was saved - though the garage was built behind and looms over the depot today. But, despite the efforts of everyone from Phil Gordon to Joe Arpaio, the jail was built, and the developer pulled his plans for the Chambers building which now houses telecommunications systems. Because who the hell wants to live across from a penitentiary?

Mackay is lost when it comes to handling something as unique as the Warehouse District. Businesses relocating to that area is not something to be celebrated; instead of locating within the core of our downtown, spurring office and retail development, these companies are instead choosing to open within the cheapest buildings available within striking distance of all the action. The Warehouse District should have become an organically grown set of entertainment, retail, restaurant, and nightlife venues perfect for small and local business owners due to the lower costs. These types of uses allow the public to experience these buildings on their own and, thus, experience Phoenix's history - the one thing that separates downtown from Gilbert. Watching warehouse after warehouse being turned into a 9-5 business breaks my heart. That Phoenix couldn't even make a small, 3-block portion of Jackson viable for game-day entertainment shows what a failure the city's vision for the area has been from the start.

[Leo the Dog]

PHX31, Awesome photos! Keep posting stuff like this. Maybe a SW thread dedicated to this, similar to the LA Noir thread will happen.

[PHX31]

Originally Posted by soleri

The problem with Phoenix - and Arizona - is that it's simply a lot cheaper to tear down an old building since the tax valuation becomes almost nothing. Old buildings require upkeep, needless to say, and most Phoenix developers were not all that keen to preserve, let alone, restore old gems. It's a different story today and everyone at City Hall really gets it even if it is much too late.

My mother was on the board of the Christian Science Church at 1st St & Roosevelt for many years (the building is still there - a street church of some kind). Directly south of it was a two-story vintage apartment building in a classic Mediterranean style. The church owned it and decided to raze it for a parking lot. This was around 1980 and I begged her as passionately as possible not to. But she answered reasonably that the restoration of the building was simply beyond the means of her aging and declining congregation. In the blow-up picture that Phx31 posted, you can see it. There were others like in the area, along with some substantial houses.

I noticed that apartment building you mentioned, interesting you had some first hand knowledge of it before it was demo'd.

I don't think it was only the developers that weren't keen on preserving old buildings, but in the "modern" 50s & 60s (and later) old buildings to a lot of the general public were just that - old. They were in disrepair, or possibly never retro-fitted with A/C (which itself must have been pretty costly in Phoenix - a new necessity that old buildings didn't have), or maybe they even reminded some of the population of harder times. Why would a person want to pump their money in to save a decrepit structure or house, especially one they didn't care about? In turn, developers saw what people wanted (modern amenities in new areas), so they gave the people what they wanted rather than saving what was just old.

I think there were a lot of simple micro issues that helped guide the macro ones, bringing brought about the widespread destruction of downtown's history.

Even in the periodical I posted above that lauded SRP and the new industry and "wealth" it brought to Phoenix... that brought new growth to Phoenix that we now know as sprawl. If citizens were clamoring to stay downtown and rebuild and restore the old building and housing stock, rather than move to modern new areas, I bet it would have been done, but that wasn't the case. It was this "wealth" that brought the destruction. Whereas in a place like Tucson, which wasn't and isn't as "wealthy", things stagnated, which actually acted to save more of their now historic areas.

[soleri]

Originally Posted by PHX31

Even in the periodical I posted above that lauded SRP and the new industry and "wealth" it brought to Phoenix... that brought new growth to Phoenix that we now know as sprawl. If citizens were clamoring to stay downtown and rebuild and restore the old building and housing stock, rather than move to modern new areas, I bet it would have been done, but that wasn't the case. It was this "wealth" that brought the destruction. Whereas in a place like Tucson, which wasn't and isn't as "wealthy", things stagnated, which actually acted to save more of their now historic areas.

I lived in Denver in the mid-1970s and historic preservation was a very hot issue there. This was before "Lodo" when the warehouse district was still just that, with a few urban pioneers bravely turning spaces into lofts and artist studios. Capitol Hill had some stunning Victorians, many of which were sensitively converted into office spaces. It was puzzling to me that so little of that consciousness seeped into Phoenix. I think the difference is that Denver was already urban and that the value of old buildings was obvious. For Phoenix, old simply meant something to escape, like the cold climate that transplants were moving away from. The irony is that the clear-cutting of downtown turned vagrant charm into despondent emptiness. Downtown never turned a corner because there was, literally, nothing to see.

I went to UofA so I got to know and love Tucson with its much better bones. Tucson benefited greatly from the university and there were a lot of academics eager to gentrify the barrio and some of antique glories in nearby neighborhoods. Tucson was politically much more liberal then, so there was that too. Tucson really did struggle with its heritage because there was no question about its value. 100 years ago, Tucson was significantly wealthier than Phoenix because its broader economy included the mines in Southern Arizona. To look at some of the old mansions in the Presidio neighborhood makes that obvious. Post-war Tucson didn't quite have the boom of Phoenix, of course, which as you suggest, inadvertently helped preserve much of downtown.

If downtown Phoenix had a nearby university back then, it's history would have been dramatically different. I'm happy that Downtown ASU is there now but there are few old bones left to restore. Whatever happens downtown will have an inorganic sense about it for the same reason Phoenix feels so suburban in character. Downtown gave up its history for a blank slate that no longer nourishes urban values.

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by soleri

I lived in Denver in the mid-1970s and historic preservation was a very hot issue there. This was before "Lodo" when the warehouse district was still just that, with a few urban pioneers bravely turning spaces into lofts and artist studios. Capitol Hill had some stunning Victorians, many of which were sensitively converted into office spaces. It was puzzling to me that so little of that consciousness seeped into Phoenix. I think the difference is that Denver was already urban and that the value of old buildings was obvious. For Phoenix, old simply meant something to escape, like the cold climate that transplants were moving away from. The irony is that the clear-cutting of downtown turned vagrant charm into despondent emptiness. Downtown never turned a corner because there was, literally, nothing to see.

I went to UofA so I got to know and love Tucson with its much better bones. Tucson benefited greatly from the university and there were a lot of academics eager to gentrify the barrio and some of antique glories in nearby neighborhoods. Tucson was politically much more liberal then, so there was that too. Tucson really did struggle with its heritage because there was no question about its value. 100 years ago, Tucson was significantly wealthier than Phoenix because its broader economy included the mines in Southern Arizona. To look at some of the old mansions in the Presidio neighborhood makes that obvious. Post-war Tucson didn't quite have the boom of Phoenix, of course, which as you suggest, inadvertently helped preserve much of downtown.

If downtown Phoenix had a nearby university back then, it's history would have been dramatically different. I'm happy that Downtown ASU is there now but there are few old bones left to restore. Whatever happens downtown will have an inorganic sense about it for the same reason Phoenix feels so suburban in character. Downtown gave up its history for a blank slate that no longer nourishes urban values.

It is a shame because we are starting from way behind the starting line compared to most places.

But what's done is done we cant undue the history of the 20th century. All we can do is go forward and maybe when we are all old and grey downtown will be urban

[soleri]

Originally Posted by Obadno

It is a shame because we are starting from way behind the starting line compared to most places.

But what's done is done we cant undue the history of the 20th century. All we can do is go forward and maybe when we are all old and grey downtown will be urban

Better architecture would help. One issue going forward is that Phoenix is so desperate for development that it settles for mediocre, auto-centric development. Granted, it's not easy to retrofit a suburban-scale city. But unless Phoenix gets serious about urban values, all the RFPs in the world won't change anything. It's almost as if Phoenix has to rediscover the basic vocabulary of cities at a granular level. Right now, it's still mostly faking it.

[PHX31]

Originally Posted by Leo the Dog

PHX31, Awesome photos! Keep posting stuff like this. Maybe a SW thread dedicated to this, similar to the LA Noir thread will happen.

I don't know if that's possible. That's the best and most interesting thread ever made!