Atlanta's Food Deserts Leave Its Poorest Residents Stranded and Struggling

[Reverberation]

Originally Posted by mhays

Read up on how highways have been funded vs. how transit has been funded, particularly in past decades. Also the GI Bill and redlining. That's just a start, but pretty soon it'll be clear.

Sprawling development is caused by land in the city not turning over fast enough, failing schools, and safety issues. Forget highways for a minute. Nobody wants to get me going about how highways have been sucking up transit funding. We would be in violent agreement on that. I would much rather have rail-enabled sprawl than highway enabled sprawl because it would at least keep employment centers intact. But, so long as there is industry in America we will always need highways capable of moving freight.

Inner city redevelopment causes displacement. Everyone hates that! If everybody gets to stay but growth is forced out into the suburbs - which require roads, everyone hates that too. A balance of both where there is some sprawl and some displacement? Sometimes progressive urban policies confuse me. All of these mean high barriers to entry, so the only people who can build (and own) are the vile and horrible rich.

As much as I like pre-assembly line industrial buildings and rows and rows of modest but solid streetcar suburbs, I don't think those things are always compatible with a modern economy with modern regulations.

[Shawn]

I don't know about corner bodegas in Atlanta, but the corner bodegas I know of in Boston are just glorified 7/11s with slightly different brand and product mixes. Bodegas are in the same position as the 7/11s and Circle Ks of the world, as Policy Wonk mentions: extremely low margin businesses reliant on complex, time-sensitive distribution chains.

If you are trying to make rent and your options are selling more (slightly) higher margin prepackaged processed food which essentially has limitless shelf lives vs. selling even lower margin produce which, as noted above, will rot on the shelves faster than it sells . . . well, the choice seems pretty clear to me.

[mhays]

Originally Posted by Reverberation

Sprawling development is caused by land in the city not turning over fast enough, failing schools, and safety issues. Forget highways for a minute. Nobody wants to get me going about how highways have been sucking up transit funding. We would be in violent agreement on that. I would much rather have rail-enabled sprawl than highway enabled sprawl because it would at least keep employment centers intact. But, so long as there is industry in America we will always need highways capable of moving freight.

Inner city redevelopment causes displacement. Everyone hates that! If everybody gets to stay but growth is forced out into the suburbs - which require roads, everyone hates that too. A balance of both where there is some sprawl and some displacement? Sometimes progressive urban policies confuse me. All of these mean high barriers to entry, so the only people who can build (and own) are the vile and horrible rich.

As much as I like pre-assembly line industrial buildings and rows and rows of modest but solid streetcar suburbs, I don't think those things are always compatible with a modern economy with modern regulations.

Sprawl is due to far more complex reasons than that. You listed some, I listed some, and there are plenty of others.

As for "modern regulations" maybe we can agree that urban-type forms shouldn't be banned as they are in most of the US....requiring setbacks, tons of parking, etc.

[SHiRO]

Originally Posted by Shawn

I don't know about corner bodegas in Atlanta, but the corner bodegas I know of in Boston are just glorified 7/11s with slightly different brand and product mixes. Bodegas are in the same position as the 7/11s and Circle Ks of the world, as Policy Wonk mentions: extremely low margin businesses reliant on complex, time-sensitive distribution chains.

If you are trying to make rent and your options are selling more (slightly) higher margin prepackaged processed food which essentially has limitless shelf lives vs. selling even lower margin produce which, as noted above, will rot on the shelves faster than it sells . . . well, the choice seems pretty clear to me.

In places I'm familiar with (Western Europe basically) cornerstores are 9 times out of 10 operated by immigrants and rely mostly on different distribution chains than supermarkets or authentic neighbourhood stores. Many of the products are imported and mostly the produce, bread, meat etc is less processed and fresher.

So if in American cities (come to think of it, Copenhagen has a lot of 7/11's too) most corner stores are part of chains or just like it, maybe this doesn't solve the problem of limited or no access to non processed foods.

So what about open air markets (or markethalls in bigger cities)? Do they exist at all in the US? What we have here, weekly markets, but daily in another part of the city (my city of 210,000 has 6 weekly markets, used to be 8) sounds like an ideal solution. It's low cost for the vendors, the products are fresher and cheaper for the consumer and it's very accessible.
And I'm not even talking about something like La Boqueria in Barcelona or this beauty they're building in Rotterdam, but simple stalls and stands with meat, fish, fruits and vegetables, cheeses, textiles, flowers, nuts, etc

I went to an indoor market in Charleston, but it was more like an arts and crafts one and volguus showed us one in Philly that also had foodstuffs (even Dutch licorice) but those were not like the weekly markets I'm talking about and that could be a solution to food deserts.

[dc_denizen]

^ most US cities, even small towns and villages, have farmers markets at specific locations and at specific times during the week. There is even one in Trenton, NJ, the likely location of another "food desert".

I used to live close to an indoor Amish farmers market in Princeton, NJ, open three days a week and run by Amish people out of Lancaster PA who offered a wide range of meats, poultry, fish, and produce. The clientele was, as we say here, like going to the DMV (ie, a representative sampling of the demographics of the state). Amish chicken is, IMO some of the best I've ever tasted for the price ($2.00/lb).

You also tend to have "indie" grocers in smaller towns, as well as Asian markets (they have produce also, a wide selection usually for Chinese cooking. Near me are three indie grocers and two Asian supermarkets.

[SHiRO]

Lots of tropical stores/Asian markets/(we call them toko's here), too due to our colonial past. Mostly Surinamese, Indonesian, but also Chinese and Thai. Also a lot of Turkish and increasingly Polish stores/markets. My small city even has a Russian market.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toko_(shop)



Another solution to food deserts would be community gardens/allotments/urban farming.

[ukw]

ShiRo, very few (hardly any) open-air markets in the US, in the European sense of that term. Everything is pretty much supermarkets/stores.

There may be a rare once-a-month or seasonal stall set up for a special event, but definitely nothing regular. No places are designated for this.

[dc_denizen]

^^ Really? I can't comment about the entire country, but in my area we have the following abundant selection of weekly/more frequent indoor and outdoor markets:

Stockton farmers market: link

Amish farmers market I was talking about: link

Trenton market: link

Princeton farmer market: link

Pennington farmers market: link

..and several more.

Here is a list of all farmers markets in New Jersey: link

Down in Marco Island, Florida you can visit this one, every Wednesday: kind of cool for a vacation town to have farmers markets. link

What the US needs to have more of is Eastern Market, DC or Italian Market, Philly type destination markets in larger cities.

[Shawn]

Yeah, Boston has plenty of year-round open markets. The Haymarket is probably the most famous - it's a real produce and dairy market open year round every Friday and Saturday from 6AM to 7PM. It's a holy mess, never smells nice, and ain't pretty to look at, but it's an actual functioning market and not a dressed-up tourist trap.



Shiro, to be honest a lot of the problem comes from a lack of demand for fresh produce among large segments of inner-city populations, and this stems from America's poor dietary habits. Fresh fruits and veggies just aren't part of many people's diets. Now, this is a bit of a chicken and egg problem, in that were fresh fruits and veggies readily and affordably available, would people start using them daily in their meals? I imagine yes for many, but "no" for a shockingly high number of people as well.

[LMich]

Originally Posted by ukw

ShiRo, very few (hardly any) open-air markets in the US, in the European sense of that term. Everything is pretty much supermarkets/stores.

There may be a rare once-a-month or seasonal stall set up for a special event, but definitely nothing regular. No places are designated for this.

Honestly, if it wasn't apparent that you were trolling from the start, this is the evidence you need. You're being completely dishonest and trying to deceive. What you said isn't even remotely true. Even the smallest cities usually have at least seasonal farmers' markets.

[Ragnar]

Originally Posted by ukw

ShiRo, very few (hardly any) open-air markets in the US, in the European sense of that term. Everything is pretty much supermarkets/stores.

There may be a rare once-a-month or seasonal stall set up for a special event, but definitely nothing regular. No places are designated for this.

This is not true at all. Here is a map of L.A.'s weekly farmers markets, many of which are in the poorer neighborhoods of South Central L.A.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3768590.html

[atlantaguy]

Originally Posted by ukw

ShiRo, very few (hardly any) open-air markets in the US, in the European sense of that term. Everything is pretty much supermarkets/stores.

There may be a rare once-a-month or seasonal stall set up for a special event, but definitely nothing regular. No places are designated for this.

Absolutely NOT true and a totally inaccurate statement.

We literally have DOZENS of them all over the city and the suburbs.

SHIRO, don't believe this for a second.

[Minato Ku]

I heard the Food Deserts are areas where it is difficult to buy healthy food, especially fruit and vegetables.

Originally Posted by Ragnar

This is not true at all. Here is a map of L.A.'s weekly farmers markets, many of which are in the poorer neighborhoods of South Central L.A.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3768590.html

LA has a lot of Hispanic immigrants who bring part of their food habits (eating more vegetables).
I think that the issue with the poor areas of Atlanta or the South side of Chicago is that they have a poor African American population, not much immigrants.
Unfortunately they don't eat vegetables.

Segregation plays a much bigger role than sprawl in Food Deserts.
Even some urban neighborhoods of Brooklyn are characterized as Food Deserts.

[SHiRO]

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

What the US needs to have more of is Eastern Market, DC or Italian Market, Philly type destination markets in larger cities.

I think this is the one volguus took us to.



Good to see there are open air markets in the US. Would you guys say that they are on the rise or that they struggle to innovate and keep up with other food buying options (like they do here in some areas).

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

What the US needs to have more of is Eastern Market, DC or Italian Market, Philly type destination markets in larger cities.

I think most midwestern cities have a historical centrally located year-round destination market, in addition to gobs of seasonal farmers markets. as for the south? i don't know...

soulard market (st. louis)


http://i1.ytimg.com

westside market (cleveland)


http://www.clevescene.com

city market (kansas city)


http://www.pps.org

findlay market (cincinnati)


http://www.amybsells.com

[dc_denizen]

^ yeah..Philly also has the Reading terminal market, which I've never been to, embarrassed to say.



...and here is the Italian market:



In DC you have Eastern market:



Whereas the main city market used to be where the national archives now stands. The old O street market was in disrepair for decades, then developed recently into condos.

DC does have the massive Florida Ave market, however:

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by SHiRO

I think this is the one volguus took us to.



Good to see there are open air markets in the US. Would you guys say that they are on the rise or that they struggle to innovate and keep up with other food buying options (like they do here in some areas).

open air markets of all kinds appear to generally be on the rise in the midwest. there's certainly been a period where they probably hit rock bottom but are becoming popular again.

[dc_denizen]

Originally Posted by Minato Ku

I heard the Food Deserts are areas where it is difficult to buy healthy food, especially fruit and vegetables.


LA has a lot of Hispanic immigrants who bring part of their food habits (eating more vegetables).
I think that the issue with the poor areas of Atlanta or the South side of Chicago is that they have a poor African American population, not much immigrants.
Unfortunately they don't eat vegetables.

Segregation plays a much bigger role than sprawl in Food Deserts.
Even some urban neighborhoods of Brooklyn are characterized as Food Deserts.

Unfortunately these food deserts have plenty of places like this:

[L41A]

Originally Posted by Minato Ku

I heard the Food Deserts are areas where it is difficult to buy healthy food, especially fruit and vegetables.


LA has a lot of Hispanic immigrants who bring part of their food habits (eating more vegetables).
I think that the issue with the poor areas of Atlanta or the South side of Chicago is that they have a poor African American population, not much immigrants.
Unfortunately they don't eat vegetables.

Segregation plays a much bigger role than sprawl in Food Deserts.
Even some urban neighborhoods of Brooklyn are characterized as Food Deserts.

Advice: Please don't speak in such absolute terms.

Poor African American population (I sorta prefer the term Black) do eat vegetables. Furthermore, large Black population areas like East Point and Forest Park in metro Atlanta also have increasing and sizable immigrant populations - especially Forest Park which has a huge 7 day farmers market with restaurants. Even in the city, and especially Black neighborhoods on the southside, it is not uncommon to see farmers/entrepreneurs sitting up stands on street corners selling fresh fruit and vegetables from South Georgia farms.

[fflint]

You can't throw a Shamrock Shake in San Francisco without hitting a farmers' market--there are 25 of them here, as of January. The largest, the Alemany Certified Farmers' Market, was the first in California.