Interprovincial bridge crossing discussion

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Harley613

Call me crazy, but I sincerely believe a Kettle Island bridge would be under construction this very moment if not for the residents of about 30 houses on Plum Tree Crescent, Meadow Park Lane and Chelsea Drive who don't want to hear trucks while they are swimming in their pools and sitting in their hot tubs.

Yeah you are crazy. All studies show it does almost nothing for truck traffic. Really even cutting it by 80% does little as a trick every 5 minutes is as or more annoying than every one. The projected dynamic decrease was more like a 20% drop.

Meanwhile, sure the tax increase from sprawl on QC side will pay for some of their share but we just pay twice for regional solidarity and a few less Montreal and points east trucks headed for the east side of Gatineau diverted. Meh.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Yeah you are crazy. All studies show it does almost nothing for truck traffic. Really even cutting it by 80% does little as a trick every 5 minutes is as or more annoying than every one. The projected dynamic decrease was more like a 20% drop.

Meanwhile, sure the tax increase from sprawl on QC side will pay for some of their share but we just pay twice for regional solidarity and a few less Montreal and points east trucks headed for the east side of Gatineau diverted. Meh.

I guess I am just tired, but I am having hard time fully understanding this comment.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Yeah you are crazy. All studies show it does almost nothing for truck traffic. Really even cutting it by 80% does little as a trick every 5 minutes is as or more annoying than every one. The projected dynamic decrease was more like a 20% drop.

Meanwhile, sure the tax increase from sprawl on QC side will pay for some of their share but we just pay twice for regional solidarity and a few less Montreal and points east trucks headed for the east side of Gatineau diverted. Meh.

As far as I can tell, the studies are based on adding the new bridge and doing nothing else (such as removing lanes or restricting truck traffic downtown).

And don't buy that this bridge would encourage more people to move to Gatineau. Quebec residents are still overtax, health care services still suck, discriminatory laws continue to be passed and housing prices are catching up to Ottawa's.

On the Ottawa side, the decrease in truck traffic might make Lowertown more desirable and La Cite Collegiale might be able to attract even more Quebec residents.

[Harley613]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I guess I am just tired, but I am having hard time fully understanding this comment.

I'm also having trouble understanding what this has to do with the fact that a tiny amount of rich NIMBYs in Manor Park were the nail in the coffin for a bridge project that has been planned for decades and has had millions of dollars of planning and environmental studies thrown in the trash.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

As far as I can tell, the studies are based on adding the new bridge and doing nothing else (such as removing lanes or restricting truck traffic downtown).

And don't buy that this bridge would encourage more people to move to Gatineau. Quebec residents are still overtax, health care services still suck, discriminatory laws continue to be passed and housing prices are catching up to Ottawa's.

On the Ottawa side, the decrease in truck traffic might make Lowertown more desirable and La Cite Collegiale might be able to attract even more Quebec residents.

I don't understand this Ottawa/Gatineau rivalry nonsense. We need to work more together to market this region as a great place to live and to do business, especially now that the city's reputation has been damaged.

Who cares which side of the river people choose to live? Our city needs to offer a transportation network that works regardless of the side of the river that we choose to live.

To those living in Manor Park, there are thousands of people in Ottawa who live along arterial roads. You get a buffer zone, while countless people get none of that.

[Aylmer]

As someone who lives a block from King Edward, I'm always interested how people who don't live here seem to imagine that if it weren't for the trucks, King Edward would be an idyllic place for a picnic.

There's like a few trucks per minute at peak, generally rolling slowly. It's the cars that kick up the dust, ride at 100 km/h, accelerate at full, and make it impossible to cross the street. They are 95% of what makes King Edward as miserable as it is. Honestly, if we kept only trucks and got rid of the cars on KE, it would be a massive improvement.

I'm tired of people using me and my neighbours as a fig leaf of "concern for the poors" to cover the fact that they think that we should collectively drop $2B to save them 5 minutes on their drive to Orléans. If you're truly concerned about how to make Lowertown a better place to live, then great, there's a million things that we can do quickly and on the cheap to reduce the number of cars driving through that we need a lot more than a multi-billion dollar, decades-removed, potential 20% reduction in 5% of the traffic. If you want more highways and cars, just say so, and leave us out of it.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

As someone who lives a block from King Edward, I'm always interested how people who don't live here seem to imagine that if it weren't for the trucks, King Edward would be an idyllic place for a picnic.

There's like a few trucks per minute at peak, generally rolling slowly. It's the cars that kick up the dust, ride at 100 km/h, accelerate at full, and make it impossible to cross the street. They are 95% of what makes King Edward as miserable as it is. Honestly, if we kept only trucks and got rid of the cars on KE, it would be a massive improvement.

I'm tired of people using me and my neighbours as a fig leaf of "concern for the poors" to cover the fact that they think that we should collectively drop $2B to save them 5 minutes on their drive to Orléans. If you want more highways and cars, just say so, and leave us out of it.

People die pretty much every year due to the truck traffic on King Edward. I don't think anyone is delusional enough to think removing trucks and doing nothing else will suddenly make King Edward an urban oasis.

Once an east-end bridge is built, the Macdonald-Cartier Bridge should be narrowed to 4 lanes. King Edward should be transformed into a 4 lanes tree-lined boulevard with bike lanes. It's not just bout the trucks, but about unnecessary detours through downtown, which would benefit drivers, yes, but also residents of Lowertown.

I don't think we should add bridge capacity, but spread it out. Any lane on the new bridge should be a lane removed from downtown bridges.

[GeoNerd]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

As someone who lives a block from King Edward, I'm always interested how people who don't live here seem to imagine that if it weren't for the trucks, King Edward would be an idyllic place for a picnic.

There's like a few trucks per minute at peak, generally rolling slowly. It's the cars that kick up the dust, ride at 100 km/h, accelerate at full, and make it impossible to cross the street. They are 95% of what makes King Edward as miserable as it is. Honestly, if we kept only trucks and got rid of the cars on KE, it would be a massive improvement.

I'm tired of people using me and my neighbours as a fig leaf of "concern for the poors" to cover the fact that they think that we should collectively drop $2B to save them 5 minutes on their drive to Orléans. If you're truly concerned about how to make Lowertown a better place to live, then great, there's a million things that we can do quickly and on the cheap to reduce the number of cars driving through that we need a lot more than a multi-billion dollar, decades-removed, potential 20% reduction in 5% of the traffic. If you want more highways and cars, just say so, and leave us out of it.

I think you’re mistaken on the intent of removing the truck route from King Edward. No offence, but most city residents don’t care about trucks driving past your home in lower town.

However, the downtown truck route snakes it’s way through high pedestrian areas and intersections. Trucks make tight turns at Waller & Rideau and Rideau & King Edward. They travel over busy pedestrian crosswalks at uOttawa, Laurier, McKenzie King, Daly, Besserer, & Cumberland. Pedestrians, cyclists, and drivers frequently have close calls here with large trucks. And people have died in these areas due to trucks.

This has little to do with your King Edward neighbourhood, and a lot to do with keeping downtown save for vulnerable road users/pedestrians.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

As someone who lives a block from King Edward, I'm always interested how people who don't live here seem to imagine that if it weren't for the trucks, King Edward would be an idyllic place for a picnic.

There's like a few trucks per minute at peak, generally rolling slowly. It's the cars that kick up the dust, ride at 100 km/h, accelerate at full, and make it impossible to cross the street. They are 95% of what makes King Edward as miserable as it is. Honestly, if we kept only trucks and got rid of the cars on KE, it would be a massive improvement.

I'm tired of people using me and my neighbours as a fig leaf of "concern for the poors" to cover the fact that they think that we should collectively drop $2B to save them 5 minutes on their drive to Orléans. If you're truly concerned about how to make Lowertown a better place to live, then great, there's a million things that we can do quickly and on the cheap to reduce the number of cars driving through that we need a lot more than a multi-billion dollar, decades-removed, potential 20% reduction in 5% of the traffic. If you want more highways and cars, just say so, and leave us out of it.

Interesting i also live on the truck route and have a similar view
(no pun intended)

Yes the middle class Manor Park crowd might have been the nail but the idea of Ontario funding it was always dead on arrival. We are separate cities. If people move there, which agreed will not be an exodus, they pay taxes there. This matters. We shouldn't widen 174 for Rockland for the same reasons. Sprawl and flight out of the city.

Now if the question is build this instead of replacing Alexandria my view changes somewhst though personally it's the most useful bridge for walking biking and driving. And yes those Nimby's will arrive to fight it.

Meanwhile it's not protesters causing cross border gridlock it's the police tactics just as it wasn't covid but stopping people to ask why they were crossing. Both were ineffective and not solvable with more bridges.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Yes the middle class Manor Park crowd might have been the nail but the idea of Ontario funding it was always dead on arrival. We are separate cities. If people move there, which agreed will not be an exodus, they pay taxes there. This matters. We shouldn't widen 174 for Rockland for the same reasons. Sprawl and flight out of the city.

Given that it is an interprovincial bridge, it should be federally funded. Not sure what makes you think that people want Ontario to pay for it.

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Now if the question is build this instead of replacing Alexandria my view changes somewhst though personally it's the most useful bridge for walking biking and driving. And yes those Nimby's will arrive to fight it.

As you say, the Alexandra bridge is very useful for active transportation (walking, cycling, etc.) and could be useful for transit, but its usefulness for driving is overrated. Occasionally someone might save a minute or two compared to using the MC Bridge when driving. As a result, I, like many others on here, feel that its replacement shouldn't have cars on it.

[RuralCitizen]

I kind of disagree with the "let's not improve our city's accesses because people sleep outside the city boundary" argument.

A big chunk of Ottawa's economy depends on people living outside its municipal boundary. Build a wall at the 174 and the 417 that prevents all these non-Ottawa residents from entering and tell me how many businesses all over Ottawa will have to shut down. Businesses pay rent/municipal taxes too.

You could say "well these people decided to live there", to that I reply, do you have enough housing within the Ottawa municipality to allow all of Rockland, Wendover, Alfred, Casselman, Embrun, Limoge, .... to move in so that they can pay Ottawa taxes too?

There are various reasons why people live where they do, but we got to work with the context. Perhaps Ottawa citizen's shouldn't fully pay the tab for these improvements. These are inter-municipal projects, so all parties involved should contribute. Ottawa, UCPR, Russel Township, Clarence-Rockland, La Nation, and the provincial government. Otherwise be ready to accept that some of Ottawa businesses leave Ottawa to move into the surrounding municipality because you don't want to contribute into the infrastructure that the regional economy depends on.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

As someone who lives a block from King Edward, I'm always interested how people who don't live here seem to imagine that if it weren't for the trucks, King Edward would be an idyllic place for a picnic.

There's like a few trucks per minute at peak, generally rolling slowly. It's the cars that kick up the dust, ride at 100 km/h, accelerate at full, and make it impossible to cross the street. They are 95% of what makes King Edward as miserable as it is. Honestly, if we kept only trucks and got rid of the cars on KE, it would be a massive improvement.

I'm tired of people using me and my neighbours as a fig leaf of "concern for the poors" to cover the fact that they think that we should collectively drop $2B to save them 5 minutes on their drive to Orléans. If you're truly concerned about how to make Lowertown a better place to live, then great, there's a million things that we can do quickly and on the cheap to reduce the number of cars driving through that we need a lot more than a multi-billion dollar, decades-removed, potential 20% reduction in 5% of the traffic. If you want more highways and cars, just say so, and leave us out of it.

It's surprising that you would have this view. I agree with what others have said.

A new bridge (at Kettle Island or elsewhere) outside the core will also reduce traffic by private vehicles on King Edward.

I don't travel to Ottawa in peak periods for work but I do have family members and friends who live east of Ottawa.

Right now I use King Edward but if they build a bridge at Kettle Island I will almost never drive by your place except if I have specific business in that part of Ottawa.

How many thousands of people are in the same situation?

Yes building more roads seems like a solution out of another era but on this one Ottawa is simply decades behind what other cities generally did in the 80s and 90s.

It arguably still needs to be done in Ottawa eventually too as no one today in any other city is saying that bypass roads for trucks to get them out of the core of the city were a bad idea back then and we need to welcome the big rigs back in town, are they?

Funny that I was watching the news recently and I realized Windsor is probably one of the only cities of significant size other than Ottawa that still has big rigs who have no business (ie deliveries or pickups) in the city, still rolling through the heart of the city. Though even there, at least Huron Church Rd. is in a straight line to the bridge. And a massive new bridge with a direct connection to the 401 is under construction.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Given that it is an interprovincial bridge, it should be federally funded. Not sure what makes you think that people want Ontario to pay for it.



As you say, the Alexandra bridge is very useful for active transportation (walking, cycling, etc.) and could be useful for transit, but its usefulness for driving is overrated. Occasionally someone might save a minute or two compared to using the MC Bridge when driving. As a result, I, like many others on here, feel that its replacement shouldn't have cars on it.

The funding model is absolutely 3 ways. Ontario Govt is said to have killed it by saying they won't contribute. If NCC funds alone I think it would get done. I think the tram to Gatineau is next in line if we are funding over built over priced infrastructure as at least it's a green whale.

A few minutes for cars is a hill too many will die on though in fairness if you add up all the 5 minutes here and there the impact does become significant. I don't see millions being spent on a bridge you can't drive on.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by GeoNerd

This has little to do with your King Edward neighbourhood, and a lot to do with keeping downtown save for vulnerable road users/pedestrians.

Yep. The further that uOttawa's campus pushes north towards Rideau and beyond the more this issue will come up. Crossing King Edward in any direction as a pedestrian is a nightmare and will need to be improved in the near-term as Rideau builds out and densifies. Matter of when, not if, infrastructure changes are made and trucks are directed elsewhere. Frankly inexcusable that trucks have to snake around the route they currently take to find the Queensway.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

A few minutes for cars is a hill too many will die on though in fairness if you add up all the 5 minutes here and there the impact does become significant.

5 minutes? I challenge you to find an origine/destination pair where you can actually park a car, that the Alexandria Bridge will save more than 2 minutes compared to the MC bridge.

I don't see millions being spent on a bridge you can't drive on.

City of Ottawa prepares to spend $22 million on Ottawa River pedestrian/cycle bridge crossing

Airport Parkway pedestrian bridge to cost another $4.6M

Ottawa’s $21-million Flora Footbridge takes root

etc.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by roger1818

5 minutes? I challenge you to find an origine/destination pair where you can actually park a car, that the Alexandria Bridge will save more than 2 minutes compared to the MC bridge.

etc.

There is almost nowhere you can't park a car in Gatineau at least short term. The issue is getting onto the MC in the afternoon because you get caught in backups headed to the 50. It might take 15 minutes for example to go from Museum of Civilization or Government offices to the MC. Whereas on Alexandria I am already home and parked. The other issue is as we are learning any reduction in capacity causes major delays so even with Alexandria's 10% share of traffic losing it will add to congestion everywhere. Many might agree with this. NCC will not hence they won't be spending their money for a bike and pedestrian bridge.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

There is almost nowhere you can't park a car in Gatineau at least short term. The issue is getting onto the MC in the afternoon because you get caught in backups headed to the 50. It might take 15 minutes for example to go from Museum of Civilization or Government offices to the MC. Whereas on Alexandria I am already home and parked. The other issue is as we are learning any reduction in capacity causes major delays so even with Alexandria's 10% share of traffic losing it will add to congestion everywhere. Many might agree with this. NCC will not hence they won't be spending their money for a bike and pedestrian bridge.

Guess what, if you get rid of the traffic on King Edward that is not going to or from central Ottawa, by building a new bridge, the traffic issues you are complaining about will be reduced significantly.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Guess what, if you get rid of the traffic on King Edward that is not going to or from central Ottawa, by building a new bridge, the traffic issues you are complaining about will be reduced significantly.

Adding a bridge and removing cars from Alexandria would reduce overall congestion but when you are reverse commuting there is a huge excess in capacity and the only traffic is a result of getting caught in with 50 commuters who aren't going to Ottawa at all. Alexandria is the cheat bridge to avoid this. I don't think it is critical but it's not nothing.

Is there another poster in this thread who has actually crossed the river every day? It's obvious if you do it and I have used all four eastern bridges at different times.

[Tesladom]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

The funding model is absolutely 3 ways.

There are a host of other bridges that are funded by the Feds, like the new Montreal Champlain bridge for example.
This bridge will connect to Federal parkways on the Ottawa side as well.

This is the only way to get rid of this stalemate - get the Feds to pay for it.
In the end, the is still only one taxpayer here, the difference is that The Feds won't need to abide by Provincial and Municipal consensus on this project.

Infrastructure on the Ontario side of the Kettle Island Bridge is pretty good, I would presume you would make Ogilvie and Montreal Rd into overpasses, but still keep a lower speed of say 70km/hr. Northbound 417/174 access would need to be added as well. From an Ontario perspective, this route makes the most sense

On the Quebec side its not as simple, trucks will need to drive up Lorrain or Maloney to reach Hwy 50... not as desirable for a truck route.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Tesladom

There are a host of other bridges that are funded by the Feds, like the new Montreal Champlain bridge for example.
This bridge will connect to Federal parkways on the Ottawa side as well.

This is the only way to get rid of this stalemate - get the Feds to pay for it.
In the end, the is still only one taxpayer here, the difference is that The Feds won't need to abide by Provincial and Municipal consensus on this project.

Infrastructure on the Ontario side of the Kettle Island Bridge is pretty good, I would presume you would make Ogilvie and Montreal Rd into overpasses, but still keep a lower speed of say 70km/hr. Northbound 417/174 access would need to be added as well. From an Ontario perspective, this route makes the most sense

On the Quebec side its not as simple, trucks will need to drive up Lorrain or Maloney to reach Hwy 50... not as desirable for a truck route.

Montée Paiement will be the main route, in fact.

But otherwise agreed.