Interprovincial bridge crossing discussion

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by corynv

Except that doesn't really work when some of the biggest opponents are residents of ottawa. Plus is gatineau itself against the idea?

Yeah as far as I know there isn't really any reason to be against it on the Gatineau side. Other than maybe preferring a less car focussed use of limited funds.

On the Ottawa you have those against paying for it, like myself, as well as even stronger NIMBY voices so it's never going to go anywhere unless funded entirely by the feds.

As for Sparks Street tunnel. Who is against that? I mean if the feds pay for it all it seems a bit unfair but as an Ottawa resident it's still a net positive if only for the jobs it creates. There would be more opposition to a surface tram but even that will fade away I suspect.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Yeah as far as I know there isn't really any reason to be against it on the Gatineau side. Other than maybe preferring a less car focussed use of limited funds.

On the Ottawa you have those against paying for it, like myself, as well as even stronger NIMBY voices so it's never going to go anywhere unless funded entirely by the feds.

As for Sparks Street tunnel. Who is against that? I mean if the feds pay for it all it seems a bit unfair but as an Ottawa resident it's still a net positive if only for the jobs it creates. There would be more opposition to a surface tram but even that will fade away I suspect.

Yeah, that post you responded to seemed to suggest that Gatinois massively supported a tunnel over Kettle Island, and the Kettle Island was preferred, desired or supported by most Ottawans.

I don't think there are any clear top choices on either side of the river.

Though in terms of bang for buck, assuming we really do need another road crossing, Kettle Island is probably the closest thing to it. There is a lot of noise coming out of Manor Park and that area, but my sense is that there wouldn't be much opposition and that even some silent majority support exists for it in Ottawa.

[CityTech]

Most Ottawans are wary of any project that increases cross river capacity, because let's be honest: Quebec cars are a nuisance. They clog up every road that forms a route across the river, wearing down roads that Ottawans have to pay for. That's the real reason why Manor Park, New Edinburgh, etc rail on against bridges. They see Booth and Island Park gridlocked with Quebec plate cars and don't want that happening to their neighbourhoods.

Of course the only reason why Quebec traffic is such a gridlocker is because it is all funneled into a small number of crossings concentrated into the core. If we built Kettle Island, and reduced capacity on the downtown bridges accordingly (say close Alexandra and cut MC down to 2 lanes in each direction, so we'd lose 2 lanes per direction across the river downtown but gain 2 at Kettle Island), we'd go a long way to fixing the problem by having cross river traffic better distributed to remove/reduce detours needed to reach the bridges. That's why I support that option. I'd agree that we shouldn't be encouraging more cross-river commuting but we can better manage the level that already exists.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by CityTech

Most Ottawans are wary of any project that increases cross river capacity, because let's be honest: Quebec cars are a nuisance. They clog up every road that forms a route across the river, wearing down roads that Ottawans have to pay for. That's the real reason why Manor Park, New Edinburgh, etc rail on against bridges. They see Booth and Island Park gridlocked with Quebec plate cars and don't want that happening to their neighbourhoods.

Of course the only reason why Quebec traffic is such a gridlocker is because it is all funneled into a small number of crossings concentrated into the core. If we built Kettle Island, and reduced capacity on the downtown bridges accordingly (say close Alexandra and cut MC down to 2 lanes in each direction, so we'd lose 2 lanes per direction across the river downtown but gain 2 at Kettle Island), we'd go a long way to fixing the problem by having cross river traffic better distributed to remove/reduce detours needed to reach the bridges. That's why I support that option. I'd agree that we shouldn't be encouraging more cross-river commuting but we can better manage the level that already exists.

These are all good points.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by CityTech

Most Ottawans are wary of any project that increases cross river capacity, because let's be honest: Quebec cars are a nuisance. They clog up every road that forms a route across the river, wearing down roads that Ottawans have to pay for. That's the real reason why Manor Park, New Edinburgh, etc rail on against bridges. They see Booth and Island Park gridlocked with Quebec plate cars and don't want that happening to their neighbourhoods.

Of course the only reason why Quebec traffic is such a gridlocker is because it is all funneled into a small number of crossings concentrated into the core. If we built Kettle Island, and reduced capacity on the downtown bridges accordingly (say close Alexandra and cut MC down to 2 lanes in each direction, so we'd lose 2 lanes per direction across the river downtown but gain 2 at Kettle Island), we'd go a long way to fixing the problem by having cross river traffic better distributed to remove/reduce detours needed to reach the bridges. That's why I support that option. I'd agree that we shouldn't be encouraging more cross-river commuting but we can better manage the level that already exists.

Well for all practical purposes we are one city. Of course residential taxation stays in the jurisdiction so that is a legitimate gripe. Still we are not New York City with a private sector job engine and people fleeing our taxes. The bulk of our wealth is generated by the Federal Government who has committed to 25% of the jobs being on the Quebec side of the river. Only Ottawa is the legal capital of Canada but national unity demands we share the benefits and work together to some extent. Exactly how is an open question sure. We should be realistic though. We are not Sweden we aren't going to reduce lanes on the bridge and spend billions of dollars for a net decrease in capacity.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Well for all practical purposes we are one city. Of course residential taxation stays in the jurisdiction so that is a legitimate gripe. Still we are not New York City with a private sector job engine and people fleeing our taxes. The bulk of our wealth is generated by the Federal Government who has committed to 25% of the jobs being on the Quebec side of the river. Only Ottawa is the legal capital of Canada but national unity demands we share the benefits and work together to some extent. Exactly how is an open question sure. We should be realistic though. We are not Sweden we aren't going to reduce lanes on the bridge and spend billions of dollars for a net decrease in capacity.

And of course the federal government's revenue comes from all of the provinces and territories, not just Ontario (and Quebec). Having around 25% of the capital's federal jobs in Quebec and 75% in Ontario is not an optimal distribution of the "benefits" as it's only two provinces sharing the wealth, but it's not too bad as together they represent at least 60-65% of the country's population.

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by CityTech

Most Ottawans are wary of any project that increases cross river capacity, because let's be honest: Quebec cars are a nuisance. They clog up every road that forms a route across the river, wearing down roads that Ottawans have to pay for. That's the real reason why Manor Park, New Edinburgh, etc rail on against bridges. They see Booth and Island Park gridlocked with Quebec plate cars and don't want that happening to their neighbourhoods.

I think you're almost right. No one wants to introduce a Booth or and Island Park (at least for the traffic part) into their neighbourhood. But when people complain about having traffic and noise and fumes, they generally can't distinguish between QC and ON license plates.

The problem isn't Gatineau cars running roughshod through neighbourhoods. It's that both Ottawa and Gatineau allow cars to run roughshod through neighbourhoods.

What most people don't seem to appreciate is that traffic isn't a tide that can we can manage at best. It can be regulated like any other nuisance. People upset that Booth is a local street turned parking lot/speed track need only blame Ottawa for allowing it to be used that way.

We don't have to wait for a multibillion dollar bridge in two decades. Indeed, people will still line up on Booth and King Edward even with a new bridge. Three concrete planters, two road signs, and a guy in a forklift is all it would take on Booth. We could stop pedestrians from getting run over on King Edward with a handful of 30 km/h signs and some flexi bollards. We could fix the problem in an afternoon.

The real barrier to improvements doesn't lie with Manor Park residents or governments unwilling to burn billions of dollars. It's a lack of administrative imagination and courage.

[silvergate]

Does anyone have any information on why Ottawa-Gatineau don't consider some kind of ferry system as a stop-gap? It seems like while waiting for a bridge to get built, that having passenger and/or car ferries across the Ottawa river might be quicker and easier to implement for the short to medium term.
Vancouver, Quebec, and Toronto all have some form of water-based transport. Why don't we?

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by silvergate

Does anyone have any information on why Ottawa-Gatineau don't consider some kind of ferry system as a stop-gap? It seems like while waiting for a bridge to get built, that having passenger and/or car ferries across the Ottawa river might be quicker and easier to implement for the short to medium term.
Vancouver, Quebec, and Toronto all have some form of water-based transport. Why don't we?

Because the Ottawa River freezes.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by silvergate

Does anyone have any information on why Ottawa-Gatineau don't consider some kind of ferry system as a stop-gap? It seems like while waiting for a bridge to get built, that having passenger and/or car ferries across the Ottawa river might be quicker and easier to implement for the short to medium term.
Vancouver, Quebec, and Toronto all have some form of water-based transport. Why don't we?

Well in all three and world wide really we are talking about at tiny niche generally out of necessity. You don't see a ferry from Burlington to downtown for example which is way more congested. North Van has a good ferry but it brings you right downtown crossing where it is too wide to build a bridge.

Generally we have sufficient capacity already so the "need" for another bridge is dubious anyway.

[OTownandDown]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Well in all three and world wide really we are talking about at tiny niche generally out of necessity. You don't see a ferry from Burlington to downtown for example which is way more congested. North Van has a good ferry but it brings you right downtown crossing where it is too wide to build a bridge.

Generally we have sufficient capacity already so the "need" for another bridge is dubious anyway.

There already are three (or four?) ferries in close proximity.

The issue being that you'd need a pretty large ferry to replace what should be a bridge, lol...

Maybe! Ferries lined end-to-end so that cars can be ferried across the river by simply driving across?

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by OTownandDown

There already are three (or four?) ferries in close proximity.

There are two ferry crossings within The City of Ottawa to Quebec, the Traversiers Bourbonnais (between Masson & Cumberland in the east) and the Quyon Ferry (to near Fitzroy Harbour in the west). The former is open year round* and the later is from April–December (according to Wikipedia). Only the former is in the City of Gatineau (the latter is in Pontiac).

The other two nearby ferries (both east) are the Thurso - Rockland Ferry and the Fassett - Lefaivre Ferry. Also according to Wikipedia, both are seasonal, but the latter is replaced by an ice bridge in the winter.

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Because the Ottawa River freezes.

If only there was a type of boat that could break ice. We could call it an icebreaker.

* According to their website, they used to use an air bubbling system to keep the river clear of ice, but now use two icebreakers.

EDIT: Here is a map I made a while back of the various Ottawa River Crossings.
https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?m...Qz&usp=sharing

[J.OT13]

As YOWetal mentioned, the capacity of our current bridges is sufficient. Investing in ferries downtown, where cars would have to lineup to get on for a very short ride across the river would not be efficient. The main reasons for the 6th road bridge are:

• Getting trucks out of Lower Town;
• Reducing traffic downtown from cars that have to make the detour to get from east Ottawa to east Gatineau .

A water taxi type system like Vancouver's False Creek could be useful for pedestrians and cyclists to get around, with stops at Dow's Lake, Lansdowne, the Canal Ritz, Pretoria, Somerset, and old Union. Maybe have a second system (because going down the locks isn't very time efficient) in the Ottawa River with stops at Entrance Bay, Pointe-Gatineau, Jacques Cartier Park and the Museum of Civilization and Victoria Island.

Honest questions; is the water between Portage and Chaudière Island navigable (for a water taxi stop at the Gatineau side of Zibi)? And is there any way to get from one side of the Chaudière Dam to the other (for further stops west, though Deschênes Rapids might not be navigable for water taxis)?

[OTownandDown]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

As YOWetal mentioned, the capacity of our current bridges is sufficient. Investing in ferries downtown, where cars would have to lineup to get on for a very short ride across the river would not be efficient. The main reasons for the 6th road bridge are:

• Getting trucks out of Lower Town;
• Reducing traffic downtown from cars that have to make the detour to get from east Ottawa to east Gatineau .

A water taxi type system like Vancouver's False Creek could be useful for pedestrians and cyclists to get around, with stops at Dow's Lake, Lansdowne, the Canal Ritz, Pretoria, Somerset, and old Union. Maybe have a second system (because going down the locks isn't very time efficient) in the Ottawa River with stops at Entrance Bay, Pointe-Gatineau, Jacques Cartier Park and the Museum of Civilization and Victoria Island.

Honest questions; is the water between Portage and Chaudière Island navigable (for a water taxi stop at the Gatineau side of Zibi)? And is there any way to get from one side of the Chaudière Dam to the other (for further stops west, though Deschênes Rapids might not be navigable for water taxis)?

There is a water taxi in continuous service from the base of the canal to the museum of civilization and 'richmond landing'. The river runs very fast at the base of Gatineau-side Zibi. It's the main run of the river, so would be difficult for the converted pontoon boat to make it there, although the barricades on the river are slightly upstream from that location.

Deschenes rapids are not deep enough for a motorized boat. There was once a canal roughed-out there, right?

[silvergate]

Thanks for the replies!

Reducing traffic downtown from cars that have to make the detour to get from east Ottawa to east Gatineau .

This was more in line with my thinking, the existing ferries are pretty far from the city proper, and even from the major suburbs.

Something like Orleans-Gatineau or Kanata-Aylmer, removing some group of commuters from downtown, rather than adding unneeded capacity downtown.

A water taxi type system like Vancouver's False Creek could be useful for pedestrians and cyclists to get around, with stops at Dow's Lake, Lansdowne, the Canal Ritz, Pretoria, Somerset, and old Union. Maybe have a second system (because going down the locks isn't very time efficient) in the Ottawa River with stops at Entrance Bay, Pointe-Gatineau, Jacques Cartier Park and the Museum of Civilization and Victoria Island.

I like the idea of a water taxi service, or even some kind of summer bus-boat thing on the Canal.

[caboose]

Originally Posted by silvergate

Thanks for the replies!



This was more in line with my thinking, the existing ferries are pretty far from the city proper, and even from the major suburbs.

Something like Orleans-Gatineau or Kanata-Aylmer, removing some group of commuters from downtown, rather than adding unneeded capacity downtown.



I like the idea of a water taxi service, or even some kind of summer bus-boat thing on the Canal.

Former Hull MP Nycole Turmel proposed a ferry from Aylmer to Kanata, but it went nowhere. It would save Aylmer residents a lot of time if they work in West End Ottawa.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by caboose

Former Hull MP Nycole Turmel proposed a ferry from Aylmer to Kanata, but it went nowhere. It would save Aylmer residents a lot of time if they work in West End Ottawa.

An Aylmer to Kanata ferry would not be a terrible idea.

[zzptichka]

Originally Posted by OTownandDown

There is a water taxi in continuous service from the base of the canal to the museum of civilization and 'richmond landing'. The river runs very fast at the base of Gatineau-side Zibi. It's the main run of the river, so would be difficult for the converted pontoon boat to make it there, although the barricades on the river are slightly upstream from that location.

Deschenes rapids are not deep enough for a motorized boat. There was once a canal roughed-out there, right?

I would say it might work between July and October. I see boats there all the time. Zibi built a nice stairs there. Wonder if they would consider something like that. There will also be stairs on the other side of the river.

[Harley613]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

An Aylmer to Kanata ferry would not be a terrible idea.

I would use it at least twice a week and I'd pay $9-10 for it happily.

[caboose]

Originally Posted by Harley613

I would use it at least twice a week and I'd pay $9-10 for it happily.

Time is money. 5 km ferry trip vs 20 km drive.