Interprovincial bridge crossing discussion

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Realistically they aren't going to remove lanes. Very slight calming is possible but anything significant that backs up traffic is unlikely. I don't even see it getting the "Main Street" reductions.

It will not be a shorter route for many. Sure those going to Vanier, Montfort and even Foreign Affairs from eastern Gatineau and points east will avoid going downtown but how many more will go a few exits in the opposite direction on the 50 loop around to get to the Market or even points west of there.

Not sure what you mean by this. I live less than 1 km from Montée Paiement and I definitely wouldn't take a Kettle Island Bridge to get to the Byward Market, downtown Ottawa, etc. Not anywhere west of the Rideau River in fact.

At least, not unless a transport truck overturned on the 50 or the M-C and blocked all the lanes for hours.

[J.OT13]

The Provincial Minister responsible for the Outaouais, Mathieu Lacombe, is onboard with the new bridge:

https://www.pressreader.com/canada/l...81552293073884

[kwoldtimer]

Manor Park Community Association has sent a letter to Mona Fortier, MP, setting out its position - no new bridge, improved transit, and federal funding for the environmental assessment of the King Edward tunnel (to address the truck issue).

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Not sure what you mean by this. I live less than 1 km from Montée Paiement and I definitely wouldn't take a Kettle Island Bridge to get to the Byward Market, downtown Ottawa, etc. Not anywhere west of the Rideau River in fact.

At least, not unless a transport truck overturned on the 50 or the M-C and blocked all the lanes for hours.

Why not though? Won’t it be more convenient to do so? Or will there be too many trucks to “contend”?

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Manor Park Community Association has sent a letter to Mona Fortier, MP, setting out its position - no new bridge, improved transit, and federal funding for the King Edward tunnel (to address the truck issue).

At least they addressed the truck issue

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Why not though? Won’t it be more convenient to do so? Or will there be too many trucks to “contend”?

If you're headed to the Market from Montée Paiment, it's faster to drive on the highway the entire time then down Montée Paiment with traffic lights and up the slower, winding road that is G.E.C.

Kettle Island Bridge will be useful to east end Gatineau residents (between Gatineau River and maybe Lorrain or the airport area) heading to east end Ottawa or Montreal. For east-end Ottawa residents (Rideau River to Trim), it will only be used to head to east-end Gatineau. I can't imagine anyone else using it.

[Dengler Avenue]

Oh what, I thought the whole thing would be grade-separated too. It’s hard on the trucks to stop and go...

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Oh what, I thought the whole thing would be grade-separated too. It’s hard on the trucks to stop and go...

That's hasn't been established yet. It would be relatively easy to grade separate Aviation, but I'm not so sure for Montée Paiment. That said, the route would be far superior for truck traffic than Kind Edward/Rideau/Waller/Nicholas as there are no turns and fewer traffic lights.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Well that is widely optimistic about how much will be diverted. The traffic routed around the city fantasy is really 1960s transportation policy. We all know beltways are quickly filled with new traffic from increased sprawl. The same thing will likely happen here.

I think sprawl is already happening regardless. What you are actually referring to is 'induced demand'.

However true this may be, at some point there has to be satisfactory transportation connections to reflect the huge changes to the city since the 1965 opening of the MC bridge.

Even the improved transit alternative gets to be nonsensical when a sensibly located bridge could also provide improved transit connections.

We have been arguing for years about improving our downtown by removing truck traffic and we are getting nowhere.

The tunnel alternative is going to cost so much more and still our transportation network will reflect a 1965 Ottawa instead of 2020.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Manor Park Community Association has sent a letter to Mona Fortier, MP, setting out its position - no new bridge, improved transit, and federal funding for the environmental assessment of the King Edward tunnel (to address the truck issue).

At some point the Manor Park Community Association cannot be allowed to set the agenda for a regional transportation link. We need to be mindful of those impacted and mitigate the problems the bridge will create, however, this is not like we have not been preparing for this for decades. There is not going to mass demolitions taking place. Manor Park is not being split into two.

Countless people in this city have been far more impacted by new roads and road widenings than is the case here.

In saying all of this, I would want this road to be a grand boulevard instead of an expressway much as was originally envisioned by Greber for the Queensway.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Not sure what you mean by this. I live less than 1 km from Montée Paiement and I definitely wouldn't take a Kettle Island Bridge to get to the Byward Market, downtown Ottawa, etc. Not anywhere west of the Rideau River in fact.

At least, not unless a transport truck overturned on the 50 or the M-C and blocked all the lanes for hours.

Really? Do you commute to Ottawa at rush hour?

I sometimes come from a cottage on Lake McGregor and use the 50 in late spring summer to come into the Byward market parking where I live and then walk to work from there. It usually takes about 30 minutes from the 366 to my door. I had a girlfriend who lived almost at Aviation parkway so pretty similar and it was as quick as 10 minutes and never more than 15. (granted this is 10 years ago but doubt traffic is that much worse) Crossing the bridge and approaches might be 7-10 minutes tops assuming it's all grade separated. That is a savings of 10+ minutes before accounting for the new traffic making the Hemlock or Rockcliffe Parkway approach a bit slower.

Actually depending on how traffic adapts this might even be a faster way to get to Portage.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Really? Do you commute to Ottawa at rush hour?
.

I don't at the moment, but I have.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Actually depending on how traffic adapts this might even be a faster way to get to Portage.

Perhaps in very exceptional circumstances, as in the case of an overturned 18-wheeler that paralyses the 50 or the M-C bridge. Or a pileup or something like that.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I think sprawl is already happening regardless. What you are actually referring to is 'induced demand'.

However true this may be, at some point there has to be satisfactory transportation connections to reflect the huge changes to the city since the 1965 opening of the MC bridge.

Even the improved transit alternative gets to be nonsensical when a sensibly located bridge could also provide improved transit connections.

We have been arguing for years about improving our downtown by removing truck traffic and we are getting nowhere.

The tunnel alternative is going to cost so much more and still our transportation network will reflect a 1965 Ottawa instead of 2020.

Not in the $2B ballpark either way?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

I sometimes come from a cottage on Lake McGregor and use the 50 in late spring summer to come into the Byward market parking where I live and then walk to work from there. It usually takes about 30 minutes from the 366 to my door. I had a girlfriend who lived almost at Aviation parkway so pretty similar and it was as quick as 10 minutes and never more than 15. (granted this is 10 years ago but doubt traffic is that much worse) Crossing the bridge and approaches might be 7-10 minutes tops assuming it's all grade separated. That is a savings of 10+ minutes before accounting for the new traffic making the Hemlock or Rockcliffe Parkway approach a bit slower.

.

Most of the Paiement route will never be grade-separated. From the A-50 interchange there are stoplights at Davidson, Gréber, Nobert, La Vérendrye, St-René Ouest, Carrefour/Graveline and Home Depot that will all likely remain.

The intersection with Maloney will be quite busy and there is quite a bit of room so that might be reconfigured with a grade separation. Then Paiement will need to be extended to the river, and there might be another interchange at St-Louis.

But that still leaves 7 signalized intersections on the Paiement segment of the route.

It's already quite busy at the moment, as I drive there fairly regularly. From top to bottom it takes almost 10 minutes at most any time of day due to all the stoplights.

Meanwhile, from the Montée Paiement exit of the A-50 in optimal traffic conditions it takes 10 minutes to get to the Byward Market via the highway.

(You mentioned the 366 which is Lorrain and two exits further out, so add 5 minutes to that time if you want to make that comparison.)

Yes there is traffic on the A-50 at rush hour but of course if Paiement-Kettle-SGEC-Aviation becomes an interprovincial truck and commuter route there will be more traffic there too. This will happen even if it doesn't became the main everyday route into downtown Ottawa for thousands of east end Gatinois.

With all due respect, your posts sound like a cautionary tale (almost fear-mongering) to Ottawans who might support the bridge, insinuating that: "if you build this, your own street will be flooded with Quebec cars looking for a shortcut downtown!"

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Most of the Paiement route will never be grade-separated. From the A-50 interchange there are stoplights at Davidson, Gréber, Nobert, La Vérendrye, St-René Ouest, Carrefour/Graveline and Home Depot that will all likely remain.

The intersection with Maloney will be quite busy and there is quite a bit of room so that might be reconfigured with a grade separation. Then Paiement will need to be extended to the river, and there might be another interchange at St-Louis.

But that still leaves 7 signalized intersections on the Paiement segment of the route.

It's already quite busy at the moment, as I drive there fairly regularly. From top to bottom it takes almost 10 minutes at most any time of day due to all the stoplights.

Meanwhile, from the Montée Paiement exit of the A-50 in optimal traffic conditions it takes 10 minutes to get to the Byward Market via the highway.

(You mentioned the 366 which is Lorrain and two exits further out, so add 5 minutes to that time if you want to make that comparison.)

Yes there is traffic on the A-50 at rush hour but of course if Paiement-Kettle-SGEC-Aviation becomes an interprovincial truck and commuter route there will be more traffic there too. This will happen even if it doesn't became the main everyday route into downtown Ottawa for thousands of east end Gatinois.

With all due respect, your posts sound like a cautionary tale (almost fear-mongering) to Ottawans who might support the bridge, insinuating that: "if you build this, your own street will be flooded with Quebec cars looking for a shortcut downtown!"

I don't mean it to be cautionary but the studies show a significant level or traffic otherwise it's a waste of money. It wasn't meant as a bridge bypass until recently.

In June at 5:15 it is always at least 30 minutes to 333 from byward market. Traffic, this year aside, is never optimal. Sometimes in July and August it is faster. I am not talking about this year naturally. It's 14 minutes right now on google maps which I have never seen before.

You make important point about the approaches. Maps I have seen show a "new route all the way to the 50. I admit I haven't looked closely.

I admit I am against this bridge despite theoretically only gaining personally.
This has been discussed many years and you always seem to say things like it's not useful at all as a Gatinois I don't care but always seem to have supportive posts so I am frankly a little suspicious. The federal MPs on that side of the river cared enough to promote it so certainly some people see the value.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

This has been discussed many years and you always seem to say things like it's not useful at all as a Gatinois I don't care but always seem to have supportive posts so I am frankly a little suspicious. .

Oh, while it's true I don't care (much) personally, I wouldn't say it wouldn't be useful to Gatinois. It won't really be useful to Gatinois to go to downtown Ottawa.

It will be very useful to Gatinois who work at Montfort, Cité collégiale (and also study there), CMHC, NRC, CSIS, CSEC, etc.

All those people are currently dumped onto King Edward.

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

The federal MPs on that side of the river cared enough to promote it so certainly some people see the value.

Well, one MP whose devotion to the idea, to put it mildly, borders on the religious. The position of every other official on this side of the river ranges from indifference to hostility. Its next biggest booster was weirdly Mike Duggan, councillor on the other side of town who ran his federal CPC campaign on the idea of a bridge not even in the riding he was running for. He finished just slightly ahead of the Greens.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

I don't mean it to be cautionary but the studies show a significant level or traffic otherwise it's a waste of money. It wasn't meant as a bridge bypass until recently.

In June at 5:15 it is always at least 30 minutes to 333 from byward market. Traffic, this year aside, is never optimal. Sometimes in July and August it is faster. I am not talking about this year naturally. It's 14 minutes right now on google maps which I have never seen before.

You make important point about the approaches. Maps I have seen show a "new route all the way to the 50. I admit I haven't looked closely.

I admit I am against this bridge despite theoretically only gaining personally.
This has been discussed many years and you always seem to say things like it's not useful at all as a Gatinois I don't care but always seem to have supportive posts so I am frankly a little suspicious. The federal MPs on that side of the river cared enough to promote it so certainly some people see the value.

I briefly worked in Gatineau last year. The lineups for all the bridges in the other direction were pretty awful. From an Ottawa perspective routing all interprovincial traffic through downtown (or close to it) creates a lot of needless congestion and I think prevents a lot of development.

[OTownandDown]

How about this? Ottawa will give Gatineau a train tunnel on Sparks, if Gatineau will give Ottawa a new bridge at Kettle island, so that finally Rideau/King Edward isn't gross, and western Quebec commuters can avoid ridiculous traffic?

As I see it, a tunnel at King Edward/Vanier Parkway will have to be restricted to truck traffic, lest it become a 2km parking lot during rush hour.

A new bells-and-whistles bridge at Kettle Island can be open to whomever. Yes, the shape of both cities will change because of it.

As for 'traffic lights' for the kettle island bridge, on the Ontario side you have but three traffic lights on a very gently used parkway to get to the 417. That should make up for the stop-and-go in the big-box store district on the Gatineau side. Can't be any worse than sitting on King Edward and making all the turns on Rideau and Nicholas (some of which are on up/down grades).

Edit: I still think we should perform the engineering miracle of two lanes of king edward descending into a tunnel beneath uOttawa, connecting to Nicholas near the 417.

If Stockholm can take 4 inter-city train lines, one subway line, one subway station, one major bus station, TWO highways, pedestrian bridges AND a set of locks and rebuild them to make it a PLEASANT place for pedestrians? All while keeping traffic flowing, surely we can accomplish this.

[corynv]

Originally Posted by OTownandDown

How about this? Ottawa will give Gatineau a train tunnel on Sparks, if Gatineau will give Ottawa a new bridge at Kettle island, so that finally Rideau/King Edward isn't gross, and western Quebec commuters can avoid ridiculous traffic?

Except that doesn't really work when some of the biggest opponents are residents of ottawa. Plus is gatineau itself against the idea?