Tallest building not in largest city or metro of State

[aderwent]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

The hair splitting is funny.

They are all roughly the same size.

Ohio has no alpha.

It's the anti-Illinois.

Yep, that's been my whole point. They're pretty interchangeable across categories. It's quite unique. Then you have Youngstown, Toledo, Akron, and Dayton at 5, 6, 7, and 8 hundred thousand respectively.

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by aderwent

2020 was 4 years ago. Latest estimates are from July, 2022.

Still it's higher: 2.76 mi (2.063mi+698k). And of course, estimates are not as solid as the census.

Originally Posted by aderwent

Yep, that's been my whole point. They're pretty interchangeable across categories. It's quite unique. Then you have Youngstown, Toledo, Akron, and Dayton at 5, 6, 7, and 8 hundred thousand respectively.

I understand the argument, but Cleveland MSA and even UA definitions are problematic and as such not directly comparable with Cincinnati or Columbus. I just pointed out that.

EDIT: I just realized Lorain is its own UA (!!!). So Cleveland UA is even more problematic than I thought. Just look the miles long straight between Cleveland UA and Lorain UA and Cleveland UA and Akron UA. That's just an invisible line on the ground arbitrarily separating otherwise single urban footprint.

[aderwent]

Jealous here that Cleveland's tallest happens to be one of their most attractive buildings while one of Columbus' ugliest buildings happens to be its tallest:





source: wikipedia

[aderwent]

Originally Posted by Yuri

Still it's higher: 2.76 mi (2.063mi+698k). And of course, estimates are not as solid as the census.




I understand the argument, but Cleveland MSA and even UA definitions are problematic and as such not directly comparable with Cincinnati or Columbus. I just pointed out that.

EDIT: I just realized Lorain is its own UA (!!!). So Cleveland UA is even more problematic than I thought. Just look the miles long straight between Cleveland UA and Lorain UA and Cleveland UA and Akron UA. That's just an invisible line on the ground arbitrarily separating otherwise single urban footprint.

Now do Cincinnati/Middletown/Dayton. Contiguous urban development, but separate urban areas. Despite what you think the rules are objective.

[The North One]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

Once again, using my highly scientific and precise "visually, which one looks the tallest" method, Cleveland's Key Tower safely holds its crown against any Detroit challenger.

Yeah, no shit. lol the point was it heavily leans on ornamentation/it's giant ass roof for the height.

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by aderwent

Now do Cincinnati/Middletown/Dayton. Contiguous urban development, but separate urban areas. Despite what you think the rules are objective.

A much newer developments. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have the impression Cleveland and Lorain/Elyria are connected by continuous urban development since the 1950's. With Akron, since the 1960's or so.

But ok: go to a detailed map and explain to me what objectively separates Los Angeles and San Bernardino UAs. I'm genuinely curious. Disclaimer: it's a several miles long border, randomly taking curves hear and there (county borders?) with very dense suburban development of both sides.

[westak]

delete

[westak]

Originally Posted by Yuri

A much newer developments. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have the impression Cleveland and Lorain/Elyria are connected by continuous urban development since the 1950's. With Akron, since the 1960's or so.

But ok: go to a detailed map and explain to me what objectively separates Los Angeles and San Bernardino UAs. I'm genuinely curious. Disclaimer: it's a several miles long border, randomly taking curves hear and there (county borders?) with very dense suburban development of both sides.

Others have said it, and I agree. They (the 3cs) are all in the same tier while having different feelings on the ground. Even if you add Akron to Cleveland's MSA, it's still in the same tier as Columbus and Cincinnati. The slight differences in population mean little to nothing in the lived experience of the residents of these metro areas. The arguing over who is bigger is silly.

Yes, NEO needs to be fixed from a definition standpoint. Right now, I'm at work in the Akron Urban Area and live in the Akron Uban Area. My coworker in the office beside me lives in the Akron Urban Area and lives in the Cleveland Metro Area simultaneously. In contrast, other coworkers live in the Akron Urban Area and live in the Canton Metro Area simultaneously. That being said, I agree entirely that they are all separate Urban areas. Having family in Lorain/Elyria, I agree with that separation as well. The countless times I've stayed in Lorain County, I've never felt like I was staying in Cleveland; it felt like its own adjacent area to Cleveland.

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by westak

Yes, NEO is a mess from a definition standpoint. Right now, I'm at work in the Akron Urban Area, and I also live in the Akron Uban Area. My coworker in the office next to me works in the Akron Urban Area and lives in the Cleveland Metro Area simultaneously, while other coworkers live and work in the Akron Urban Area and the Canton Metro Area simultaneously. That being said, I agree entirely that they are all separate Urban areas. Having family in Lorain/Elyria I agree with that separation as well. The countless times I've stayed in Lorain County, I've never felt like I was staying in Cleveland; it felt like its own adjacent area to Cleveland.

The point is, that's not objective. It's your opinion. There is no scientific rule stating Cleveland, Lorain and Akron are urban areas. That's simply a convention. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, the US Census Bureau itself acknowledge that.

CSA is usually heavily criticized here. MSA are spared way more than it should. And UA is taken as some scientific measure whereas in fact it's incredibly inconsistent.

But sure, one might want to regard Cleveland and Akron as separated metro areas just because (and I fail to see why: metro areas might be polycentric), however to split them you'll have to use completely arbitrary lines in a map. Be it for the MSA, be it for the UA, both following administrative borders. If one wants be "scientific", we can see clearly the urbanized areas on the northern areas of Summit County seems much more a continuation of Cleveland sprawl than Akron's. Same for Portage County.

Things are so interconnected that it's pointless to try to chop this region around just because they have more than one "famous" city. More to the point: why Anaheim is Los Angeles and Ontario is not?

[westak]

Originally Posted by Yuri

The point is, that's not objective. It's your opinion. There is no scientific rule stating Cleveland, Lorain and Akron are urban areas. That's simply a convention. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, the US Census Bureau itself acknowledge that.

CSA is usually heavily criticized here. MSA are spared way more than it should. And UA is taken as some scientific measure whereas in fact it's incredibly inconsistent.

But sure, one might want to regard Cleveland and Akron as separated metro areas just because (and I fail to see why: metro areas might be polycentric), however to split them you'll have to use completely arbitrary lines in a map. Be it for the MSA, be it for the UA, both following administrative borders. If one wants be "scientific", we can see clearly the urbanized areas on the northern areas of Summit County seems much more a continuation of Cleveland sprawl than Akron's. Same for Portage County.

Things are so interconnected that it's pointless to try to chop this region around just because they have more than one "famous" city. More to the point: why Anaheim is Los Angeles and Ontario is not?

True, and my point is it doesn't matter because they are all the same tier anyways. It doesn't matter if the Cleveland area is 2 million or 3 million, the lived experience wouldn't change, and most people in the outlying urban areas would do most of their living and working in those specified areas.

[wwmiv]

Originally Posted by ColDayMan

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply Austin's "hype" is bound by 6th Street (it obviously is not). I strictly meant downtown vibrancy is helped greatly by 6th Street, much like Broadway does for Nashville.

It’s the reverse… 6th is largely the deadest spot in downtown at most hours of the day, days of the week, and weeks of the month.

[Buckeye Native 001]

Originally Posted by aderwent

Jealous here that Cleveland's tallest happens to be one of their most attractive buildings while one of Columbus' ugliest buildings happens to be its tallest:





source: wikipedia

If you like brutalism (for me sometimes yes, sometimes no) its a solid tower. I tried to go to the observation deck in October 2021 but it was closed because of a) COVID/staffing shortages and b) renovations. Not sure if it was renovated, but at the time, entering the lobby was like stepping backwards into 1974. There's also that goofy (oxidized?) statue of James Rhodes carrying a briefcase in front of the entrance, facing the statehouse.

As for Cincinnati, I've made no effort to hide my disdain for Queen City Square's tiara. I like the building itself, but good god that ornamental nightmare...

Key Tower is one of Pelli's better designs.

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

Only by CSA.

And CSAs are dumb.

Yes, cleveland was once the clear leader back in the day (and WAY back in the day, it was Cincy), but they're all in the same ballpark these days.


Anyway, all of this silly metro area taffy pulling is distracting us from the real topic, and that's how nice OH's tallest building is. It's the only 800+ footer in the Midwest outside of Chicago (and one of only two such towers in the broader Midwest/Rustbelt realm, Pittsburgh having the other).



Source: wikipedia

I feel privileged that I saw this tower as a kid when it was brand new. I understood from encyclopedias and AAA travel guides (pre internet) that Cleveland had lost population from its peak but building this 900 footer tower suggested to me as a kid that Cleveland was still a big deal.

It was the tallest tower I had seen in person besides Toronto's skyscrapers at that point. Along with the grand Terminal Tower, Cleveland had 2 instantly recognizable icons.

I spent so much time gawking at it and the Terminal tower the summers my Dad would take us on weekend trips to see Indians vs. Blue Jays baseball games. We probably saw 6-7 games over a handful of years witnessing ball games in the gargantuan old Municipal stadium and later the then new and much better atmosphere Jacobs now Progressive Field. I have fond memories of Cleveland in the summer.

Ohio is home to 3 of my favorite towers

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...ldings_in_Ohio

Steely,
Like you I think UAs are as close to ideal measurement of a city's population size to compare.

Cleveland - 1,712,178
Cincinnati - 1,686,744
Columbus - 1,567,254

[ATXboom]

If Cleveland can claim Akron can Cinci not claim Dayton? Would make a huge difference.

Originally Posted by aderwent

Of course the Cleveland MSA is smaller. It couldn't sprawl north. Combined Cleveland-Akron is down to 2.61. Cincinnati is up to 2.27. Columbus is up to 2.16. The fabled argument that Cleveland-Akron are measured different when it comes to MSA... So use CSA if you like. Cleveland is 7,664mi². Cincinnati is 4,794mi². Who's sprawling now? At least Columbus' central location makes sense for its large 8,971mi² considering how CSAs work.

If only there were objective measures called urban areas that don't follow arbitrary city or county lines. Oh wait, all three Cs are roughly the same population, and yet Columbus is only 516mi² while Cleveland sprawls 714mi² and Cincinnati 752mi²?

[wwmiv]

Originally Posted by aderwent

Yep, that's been my whole point. They're pretty interchangeable across categories. It's quite unique. Then you have Youngstown, Toledo, Akron, and Dayton at 5, 6, 7, and 8 hundred thousand respectively.

Don’t forget Canton in the medium cities:

Dayton: 800k
Akron: 700k
Toledo: 600k
Youngstown: 500k
Canton: 400k

Nor the small cities, which fit the same pattern of population distribution:

Lima: 200k
Mansfield: 200k
Springfield: 100k
Sandusky: 100k

This whole dynamic is very similar to South Carolina (albeit on a smaller scale in SC), where the three major cities are roughly comparable (Greenville, Charleston, Columbia) and there’s a number of smaller places bringing up the rear (Myrtle Beach, Spartanburg, Hilton Head) and a third tier (Sumter, Florence, Anderson). That said, Charlotte de facto functions as South Carolina’s primate city and its three cities are roughly comparable to Asheville, Fayetteville, Greensboro, etc. with Raleigh playing the role of Beta for the entire region.

[ATXboom]

Originally Posted by wwmiv

It’s the reverse… 6th is largely the deadest spot in downtown at most hours of the day, days of the week, and weeks of the month.

No doubt... just a homeless hangout till the redevelopment along the corridor starts. However there are a plethora of pedestrian active neighborhoods downtown and adjacent to.... Times they are a changin. FAST.

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by ATXboom

If Cleveland can claim Akron can Cinci not claim Dayton? Would make a huge difference.

Cincinnati and Dayton are not even close to be part of the same CSA. Cleveland and Akron are locked on similar definition since the 1980’s. And of course, the distance. The former are much further away.

[MayDay]

Fwiw, the crown of Key Tower contains six floors for mechanical use, including water tanks, HVAC. I know, I’ve been inside it as well as the outside, before the KeyBank logo was added.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by Buckeye Native 001

If you like brutalism (for me sometimes yes, sometimes no) its a solid tower. I tried to go to the observation deck in October 2021 but it was closed because of a) COVID/staffing shortages and b) renovations. Not sure if it was renovated, but at the time, entering the lobby was like stepping backwards into 1974. There's also that goofy (oxidized?) statue of James Rhodes carrying a briefcase in front of the entrance, facing the statehouse.

As for Cincinnati, I've made no effort to hide my disdain for Queen City Square's tiara. I like the building itself, but good god that ornamental nightmare...

Key Tower is one of Pelli's better designs.

Yeah from my perspective the tower is quite attractive,

[Wigs]

Mayday, the views from near the top must be stunning