Ontario School Boards - Time to Merge

[tyeman200]

Originally Posted by vid

They're both public boards. One just has a mandate to provide religious instruction in addition to the base curriculum.

I don't agree that religion should be mandatory or promoted in school. In my life, religion is even less relevant than solving for X or knowing how to write in iambic pentameter.

To some people, yes. I, However, have grown up catholic and been to catholic schools, which is probably one of the reasons why I don't agree with this whole merger idea. I would rather just leave it the way it is now, with the exception of a couple things. One, we should get rid of Deb Matthews, she's useless. Second, maybe to save more money we can build more joint schools in rural/any areas were schools aren't at full capacity. Strathroy has a joint catholic/public high school, where 2 schools are sharing one building, and it works great!

If we want to save money in Ontario, why not try for other things like cutting some people salaries. IMO, there is no need for someone to be making 100+ grand or more a year. I'd say make a salary cap of 90 grand or something, and watch the savings pour in.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by tyeman200

If we want to save money in Ontario, why not try for other things like cutting some people salaries. IMO, there is no need for someone to be making 100+ grand or more a year. I'd say make a salary cap of 90 grand or something, and watch the savings pour in.

We'd bleed talent to other jurisdictions like crazy with a policy like that.

[Loco101]

I agree.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

We'd bleed talent to other jurisdictions like crazy with a policy like that.

Not to mention that preparing future citizens for their adult lives is one of the most important jobs in society.

[waterloowarrior]

Canadian teachers are some of the highest-paid in the world
https://www.thestar.com/yourtoronto/...udy-finds.html

Ontario has the highest salaries among the provinces
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/81-604-...bld2.1-eng.htm

[toaster]

Originally Posted by tyeman200

To some people, yes. I, However, have grown up catholic and been to catholic schools, which is probably one of the reasons why I don't agree with this whole merger idea. I would rather just leave it the way it is now, with the exception of a couple things. One, we should get rid of Deb Matthews, she's useless. Second, maybe to save more money we can build more joint schools in rural/any areas were schools aren't at full capacity. Strathroy has a joint catholic/public high school, where 2 schools are sharing one building, and it works great!

If we want to save money in Ontario, why not try for other things like cutting some people salaries. IMO, there is no need for someone to be making 100+ grand or more a year. I'd say make a salary cap of 90 grand or something, and watch the savings pour in.

You would rather just leave it the way it is? Is that how you felt about marriage, too? Between a man and a woman, because that's the way it was? Women not having a right to vote, because that's the way it was? Come on.

Just because something has been a way for a while, doesn't make it right.
Most people see the value in developing friendships, and leaning, with a diverse culture and group of people; because that's the way it is in the real world. Public funding should not privilege one group to the detriment of others. Public entities should not be allowed to discriminate based on LGBTQ status, which the Catholic System can do.
If you want a Catholic school? Fine.. pay for it and build it with your funds. Just like if Muslims want a Muslim school, or Jews want a Jewish school.
And why have two schools in one building? Why waste money making it "two schools" instead of just one, where people from different religions can, you know, go to school together? Sounds like a "black school" "white school" to me..

Have I returned from the 1940s?

[waterloowarrior]

Originally Posted by tyeman200

To some people, yes. I, However, have grown up catholic and been to catholic schools, which is probably one of the reasons why I don't agree with this whole merger idea. I would rather just leave it the way it is now, with the exception of a couple things. One, we should get rid of Deb Matthews, she's useless. Second, maybe to save more money we can build more joint schools in rural/any areas were schools aren't at full capacity. Strathroy has a joint catholic/public high school, where 2 schools are sharing one building, and it works great!

Do you not think it's unfair that education for your religion is free but other families have to pay thousands for dollars a year for religious education?

Tuition for 13 years (K-12) for one child
$188,570 - Toronto District Christian High School
$249,375 - Bialik Hebrew Day School + Community Hebrew Academy of Toronto
$77,800 -ISNA Schools (Muslim)

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by waterloowarrior

Ontario has the highest salaries among the provinces
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/81-604-...bld2.1-eng.htm

That's an interesting chart.

Ontario seems to be the most seniority-obsessed of the provinces. It's starting salary is actually one of the lowest, but it's finishing salary is the highest. Notably, for first-time teachers Alberta's salaries are almost $10k a year higher but after 10 years Ontario is on top.

Also.. wow, are Quebec's teacher salaries ever low! At 10 years experience Quebecois teachers are by a huge margin the poorest in the country.

[Blitz]

Originally Posted by vid

They're both public boards. One just has a mandate to provide religious instruction in addition to the base curriculum.

I don't agree that religion should be mandatory or promoted in school. In my life, religion is even less relevant than solving for X or knowing how to write in iambic pentameter.

I see some value in teaching religion. I attended Catholic schools and in Grade 10 our mandatory religion course was all about the other world religions. We learned about Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism and I think that really helps students understand historic global conflicts better and results in students respecting the differences among the religions. In Grade 12 our mandatory religion course was all about preparing us on how to raise a family, being a good parent, running a household, etc. I don't know if they have courses like this in public high schools but if they do I assume they're not mandatory like they are in Catholic high schools.

Sure there'd be a lot of support for merging in the GTA but in Ottawa, Windsor, and much of the North there are just as many Catholic schools as public schools (if not more). You'd need to have widespread provincial support for politicians to be willing to pursue it.

It does produce some interesting situations. Windsor has a neighbourhood with a very high Arab Muslim population (the highest per capita in Ontario) but the only high school in their neighbourhood is Catholic so one of our Catholic high schools has a large proportion of students of Islamic faith.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

That's an interesting chart.

Ontario seems to be the most seniority-obsessed of the provinces. It's starting salary is actually one of the lowest, but it's finishing salary is the highest. Notably, for first-time teachers Alberta's salaries are almost $10k a year higher but after 10 years Ontario is on top.

Also.. wow, are Quebec's teacher salaries ever low! At 10 years experience Quebecois teachers are by a huge margin the poorest in the country.

Yes indeed. It's because we have a more or less captive labour market for teachers. I'll have to check the page to see what it says but I wonder if this is just public school teachers. Quebec has 20% of its high school students in private schools and they get paid higher. So if they're not included this would bump the averages up a bit.

EDIT: It's only for public school teachers.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Blitz

I see some value in teaching religion. I attended Catholic schools and in Grade 10 our mandatory religion course was all about the other world religions. We learned about Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism and I think that really helps students understand historic global conflicts better and results in students respecting the differences among the religions. In Grade 12 our mandatory religion course was all about preparing us on how to raise a family, being a good parent, running a household, etc. I don't know if they have courses like this in public high schools but if they do I assume they're not mandatory like they are in Catholic high schools.

Sure there'd be a lot of support for merging in the GTA but in Ottawa, Windsor, and much of the North there are just as many Catholic schools as public schools (if not more). You'd need to have widespread provincial support for politicians to be willing to pursue it.

It does produce some interesting situations. Windsor has a neighbourhood with a very high Arab Muslim population (the highest per capita in Ontario) but the only high school in their neighbourhood is Catholic so one of our Catholic high schools has a large proportion of students of Islamic faith.

I had those same courses when I was in high school. (Ontario Catholic.)

Do Ontario public schools have any type of interfaith teaching at all?

In Quebec, where my kids go to school, when they eliminated religious schools they replaced the old religion classes with something called Éthique et culture religieuse. It's taught in both elementary and secondary. It teaches about the religions of the world and other ethics and values issues. Mandatory in all schools in Quebec.

[kdog]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I had those same courses when I was in high school. (Ontario Catholic.)

Do Ontario public schools have any type of interfaith teaching at all?

In Quebec, where my kids go to school, when they eliminated religious schools they replaced the old religion classes with something called Éthique et culture religieuse. It's taught in both elementary and secondary. It teaches about the religions of the world and other ethics and values issues. Mandatory in all schools in Quebec.

When I graduated two years ago my public high school had a grade 11 or 12 (can't remember the exact grade) "World Religions" course, although it was an elective. I would assume that other public high schools throughout Ontario offer similar courses as well, given that my school was in rural West Carleton, Ottawa (with many students from Kanata North, I should mention, so this may have also had an effect).

I don't think a religion or an ethics course, such as the one you mentioned that exists in Quebec, is in the elementary curriculum, but I don't know if this has changed over the years (I highly doubt it).

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I had those same courses when I was in high school. (Ontario Catholic.)

Do Ontario public schools have any type of interfaith teaching at all?

In Quebec, where my kids go to school, when they eliminated religious schools they replaced the old religion classes with something called Éthique et culture religieuse. It's taught in both elementary and secondary. It teaches about the religions of the world and other ethics and values issues. Mandatory in all schools in Quebec.

Mine had World Religions as an elective in the 12th grade.

In the mandatory courses, however, there is no discussion of religion, anywhere, except in a few instances in history courses where the topic is relevant; and even then, religion is not mentioned by much other than name. The Western History course (a Grade 12 elective) does include a bit of a theological discussion on Catholicism vs. Protestantism as a backdrop to understand the history of the reformation.

Ontario's public high school curriculum is more elective-based than other jurisidictions--in total, mandatory courses only take up half of the high school courseload. Lots of things aren't mandatory. Gym and French as a second language are not mandatory past Grade 9. There are only two required humanities courses in total (1 geography in Grade 9, and 1 history in Grade 10). Math is required in the first 3 years of high school but it is optional in the final year. In fact, in the final year of high school English is the only required course; other than that, students pick their entire courseload.

[vid]

Originally Posted by tyeman200

One, we should get rid of Deb Matthews, she's useless.

Who would you replace her with?

Originally Posted by tyeman200

Second, maybe to save more money we can build more joint schools in rural/any areas were schools aren't at full capacity. Strathroy has a joint catholic/public high school, where 2 schools are sharing one building, and it works great!

Well this basically agrees with my point about Northern Ontario having at the very least joint schools, as about 90% of our schools are either at or below (or forecast to be at or below within 5 years) 60% capacity.

Originally Posted by tyeman200

If we want to save money in Ontario, why not try for other things like cutting some people salaries. IMO, there is no need for someone to be making 100+ grand or more a year. I'd say make a salary cap of 90 grand or something, and watch the savings pour in.

Originally Posted by Toronto Star

Teachers in Ontario recently ratified three-year tentative agreements that include a 1.5 per cent pay increase over the life of the contract. In Toronto, elementary teachers currently begin their careers earning $42,283 to $55,404, up to a maximum of $94,707 (all figures Canadian) — or roughly $71,000 U.S. — after 10 years.

Nearly there.

I'm not entirely convinced paying people less will produce a better result. I know a lot of teachers that complain about their pay being too low. But they still make more than me and get two months off (because as we all know, teachers don't do anything at all over the summer ) so I guess I should be mad at them?

Originally Posted by Acajack

Do Ontario public schools have any type of interfaith teaching at all?

A World Religions course does exist on the Ontario public high school curriculum (as do courses on things like home finance and family planning), but in my school all of those courses were unavailable because there were too few students to fill the class, so it would have cost too much to have a teacher dedicated to the 2 or 3 students that chose to take it. This wouldn't have been an issue if we didn't have to have so many high schools for every group of people.

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Ontario's public high school curriculum is more elective-based than other jurisidictions--in total, mandatory courses only take up half of the high school courseload. Lots of things aren't mandatory. Gym and French as a second language are not mandatory past Grade 9. There are only two required humanities courses in total (1 geography in Grade 9, and 1 history in Grade 10). Math is required in the first 3 years of high school but it is optional in the final year. In fact, in the final year of high school English is the only required course; other than that, students pick their entire courseload.

And this system really sucks when your high school is at 45% capacity and has only three math teachers, and the gym teacher is only teaching French because she lived in Paris one year and no one else on the staff is Francophone. (There was a French high school up the street with 90 students, too; we could have borrowed a French language instructor if they weren't part of a different school board.) Nearly half of the electives I wanted were unavailable because there was no teacher that offered it at my school. By Grade 12 I had taken all the mandatory courses and every elective that I was interested in that the school offered, but still ended up taking a 3 credit co-operative education programme (working for free for school credit) to reach the total credits I needed to graduate. In retrospect, I should have transferred to a different school for the final year so I could actually take something I wanted to.

We'd always choose our courses for the following year at the end of the previous year, and most of us would get a form back over the summer saying the courses we wanted were cancelled so we've been put in some alternate course. It was discouraging. Many of my electives also had just 4 to 10 students too.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by vid

And this system really sucks when your high school is at 45% capacity and has only three math teachers, and the gym teacher is only teaching French because she lived in Paris one year and no one else on the staff is Francophone. (There was a French high school up the street with 90 students, too; we could have borrowed a French language instructor if they weren't part of a different school board.) Nearly half of the electives I wanted were unavailable because there was no teacher that offered it at my school. By Grade 12 I had taken all the mandatory courses and every elective that I was interested in that the school offered, but still ended up taking a 3 credit co-operative education programme (working for free for school credit) to reach the total credits I needed to graduate. In retrospect, I should have transferred to a different school for the final year so I could actually take something I wanted to.

We'd always choose our courses for the following year at the end of the previous year, and most of us would get a form back over the summer saying the courses we wanted were cancelled so we've been put in some alternate course. It was discouraging. Many of my electives also had just 4 to 10 students too.

I felt that pain too. I was in a small high school. It opened right before I started due to expected population growth in my township, but the school board jumped the gun a bit and in the first few years enrollment was low. My year only had 60 students in it when I started Grade 9.

I had numerous electives that I enrolled in that ended up being cancelled. I ended up taking quite a few courses that I wasn't too keen on just to fill up my calendar. I accelerated my English--took Grade 11 English in second semester of Grade 10 and then Grade 12 English in my first semester of Grade 11--just because I had no other elective slots available. In Grade 12, I took an online course taught out of a high school in Peterborough (400km away from me) and a cooking class. We also did things like alternating years; for example, Grade 11 Physics & Grade 12 Physics were both offered only ever other year; so both grades took physics together, the Grade 11 in the first semester and the Grade 12 course in the second. This allowed them to combine the physics enrollment from both years.

Interesting that you had classes with an enrollment of 4 kids! In my school board, all classes had to have a minimum enrollment of 12 in order to be run. They make exceptions for so called "mandated classes", classes which the Ministry of Education requires all schools to offer no matter how low enrollment is--in theory, they would be obligated to run with only 1 student. Aside from the core required courses obviously, certain electives key to admission to university programs (like Calculus and Biology) are on that list. There is a growing pressure to add Computer Science to that list as well, as its absence from the list forces universities to admit students to Bachelor of Computing programs without any prior computer science classes.

Due to enrollment pressures my high school also only offered co-ed gym classes. Unlike the other schools in my area which gave students the choice between single-sex gym class or co-ed gym class. Though they still separated us by sex for the sex-ed units. The teacher for my Grade 9 gym class was a woman and one of the male guidance councilors was brought in to teach sex-ed to the guys.

[kdog]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Due to enrollment pressures my high school also only offered co-ed gym classes. Unlike the other schools in my area which gave students the choice between single-sex gym class or co-ed gym class. Though they still separated us by sex for the sex-ed units. The teacher for my Grade 9 gym class was a woman and one of the male guidance councilors was brought in to teach sex-ed to the guys.

I was in the same situation as you except my female teacher had to teach sex-ed to the guys as well! It was quite funny.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Mine had World Religions as an elective in the 12th grade.

In the mandatory courses, however, there is no discussion of religion, anywhere, except in a few instances in history courses where the topic is relevant; and even then, religion is not mentioned by much other than name. The Western History course (a Grade 12 elective) does include a bit of a theological discussion on Catholicism vs. Protestantism as a backdrop to understand the history of the reformation.

Ontario's public high school curriculum is more elective-based than other jurisidictions--in total, mandatory courses only take up half of the high school courseload. Lots of things aren't mandatory. Gym and French as a second language are not mandatory past Grade 9. There are only two required humanities courses in total (1 geography in Grade 9, and 1 history in Grade 10). Math is required in the first 3 years of high school but it is optional in the final year. In fact, in the final year of high school English is the only required course; other than that, students pick their entire courseload.

Has the gym requirement changed? When I was in high school (post-Harris), one gym credit was required but it could be taken in any of the four years. I took mine in Grade 10.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

Has the gym requirement changed? When I was in high school (post-Harris), one gym credit was required but it could be taken in any of the four years. I took mine in Grade 10.

Oh right. I think that is technically what the rule is; but almost everyone does it in Grade 9.

[eemy]

It kind of sounds too bad that they got rid of OACs as it sounds like an accelerated 4 yr completion for your OACs would have been ideal for a lot of you. In other words, you could stack up on more core courses instead of looking for electives to fill up your schedule. Looking back, I think I had 6 English credits, 3 French, 5 Humanities (I think), 2 Music (a lot more of this was extra-curricular), 2 Comp Sci (maybe more?), 7 Math, 6 Science, and 1 Phys Ed. Does 8 courses a year sound right?

[vid]

I think the elective courses I took with just a few people were situations where they needed something for the teacher to do. Still, most teachers only taught two or three classes a day. I had one teacher who only taught the first and last periods, so the whole middle of the day his room was just a quiet work space for students with free periods.

And we had entire classrooms that went unused at my school, too. It was originally built for around 1,200 people but had about 600 when I went there. We had 3 gyms but only two gym teachers, and they never taught at the same time, so we only used one of them at a time most of the time.

My high school is now being turned into condos.