HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #161  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2021, 2:09 PM
jonny24 jonny24 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Hamilton, formerly Norfolk County
Posts: 1,142
Quote:
Originally Posted by LakeLocker View Post
Football just seems like a sport in real trouble. The speed of play, excess of commercial, and concussions are all reasons this sport is in trouble globally.

If Canadian football is serious about existing in the future, they need to up the game tempo and reduce the amount of head trauma that occurs.
I've posted my theories about this before, but they need to evolve:

1. Game tempo to increase interest
2. Change the nature of the physicality (not remove it) for liability
2. Reduce roster size to decrease cost

Those all seem to me to point in a "rugby-like" direction. Canadian Football has always existed on the spectrum between rugby, and American Football's extreme evolution of it, usually just one step removed from the Americans. There's no reason not to evolve back the other way a little bit. Being more "unique" as a sport may even increase interest and reduce comparisons to the NFL. The biggest barrier is the ingrained influence of American coaches, players, and administrators in the CFL. But one day the CFL could maybe be more like the AFL or GAA, rather than mini-NFL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy View Post
Another year off would guarantee packed stadiums.

Yeah sure. Has this source every heard of out of sight, out of mind? Many people (those with finances not decimated by shutdowns) will have moved on to other interests. Once you lose a fan, it's hard to regain their attention. 2.5 years without CFL football also makes it difficult to gain new younger fans.

Let's not forget many fans who would like to attend games may no longer be able to afford the pleasure. This would have affected attendance in a noticeable way even without the cancelled 2020 season....likely a leaguewide decrease of 2-3,000 per game.

CFL attendance has been trending down for 7 years from 28,000 in 2012 to 22,900 in 2019 - a decline of over 5,000 per game. Combine that with a potential 2.5 year absence, loss of corporate support and fan support due to business shutdowns and I think it is reasonable that average CFL attendance is likely to be 18-19,000 per game. Eh, I might be a little optimistic with that guestimate.

I will be blunt here. That source is full of shit if they think it is in the best interest of the league to shutdown operations for another year and "rebuild" in 2022. More like the death of the league if that comes to pass. This source is likely some goof from southern Ontario who still has wet dreams about the NFL relocating a team to Toronto.
Absolut idiocy. 2020 was the time to "rebuild and come back stronger". They've had the time to do this, if they've wasted it, too fucking bad.

2021 is now the year to spend whatever it costs to run a full season. It's critical that they do that to hang on to some semblance of continuity from the "before times". They need to be in operation when restrictions lift this year so people can immediately return. If not everyone will find something else to go exuberantly blow their money and freedom on, and when they finally return in June 2022 it'll be a soft wet thud of nothingness - "Return to Normal!!!" will be old news by then.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #162  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2021, 3:27 PM
Coldrsx's Avatar
Coldrsx Coldrsx is offline
Community Guy
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Canmore, AB
Posts: 66,669
2021 needs to happen for a variety of critical reasons, but that said, many fans that I chat with are still unsure if they want to be back in stadiums, even with spacing and while TV is an option, for many the CFL is about being there live and more than many sports the crowd is really part of the beauty of this league.

Genuinely curious to see how they work 2021 out.
__________________
"The destructive effects of automobiles are much less a cause than a symptom of our incompetence at city building" - Jane Jacobs 1961ish

Wake me up when I can see skyscrapers
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #163  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2021, 7:19 PM
esquire's Avatar
esquire esquire is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 37,483
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldrsx View Post
2021 needs to happen for a variety of critical reasons, but that said, many fans that I chat with are still unsure if they want to be back in stadiums, even with spacing and while TV is an option, for many the CFL is about being there live and more than many sports the crowd is really part of the beauty of this league.

Genuinely curious to see how they work 2021 out.
You would think that playing outdoors in all but one market would help in that regard.

I'd defer to what the experts say, but at first blush I'd probably feel safer going to IG Field with 8,000 fans in it than to Bell MTS Place with 4,000 fans (both roughly a quarter of capacity) given that one is open air and the other isn't.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #164  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2021, 7:38 PM
thurmas's Avatar
thurmas thurmas is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Winnipeg, MB
Posts: 7,595
Run the season out of bc place and Olympic stadium as 2 hubs for a full season where you could allow more fans and hotel space is available and nearby it would be much easier and saves on travel costs
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #165  
Old Posted Feb 17, 2021, 12:05 AM
thurmas's Avatar
thurmas thurmas is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Winnipeg, MB
Posts: 7,595
https://3downnation.com/2021/02/16/p...ason-a-factor/

Potential ownership groups express interest in B.C. Lions, 2021 season a factor

The B.C. Lions are in need of new ownership following the death of longtime owner David Braley in October 2020.

TSN’s Farhan Lalji reported on Tueday that preliminary discussions have taken place regarding a potential sale of the team with two to four parties expressing interest.

Lalji states that the sale is not the top priority within the Braley estate due to other ongoing evaluations. The 79-year-old was an extremely wealthy businessman whose assets will take time to settle.

The viability of the 2021 CFL season is a factor as the decision to play with fans, play without fans or cancel all games will have obvious financial ramifications.

Braley set aside enough money to fund the B.C. Lions for a number of years following his death, so the survival of the franchise is not dependent on a sale.

However, the Lions have seen a steep decline in attendance and fan engagement over the past five years in Vancouver’s competitive sports marketplace. Having a new, engaged ownership group committed to leading the team to a prosperous future is essential for the long-term viability of the CFL on the west coast.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #166  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2021, 12:01 AM
thurmas's Avatar
thurmas thurmas is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Winnipeg, MB
Posts: 7,595
Single-game sports betting could ‘change the financial landscape’ of the CFL: Suitor

https://3downnation.com/2021/02/19/s...he-cfl-suitor/

Single-game sports betting looks to be headed towards legalization in Canada and CFL analyst Glen Suitor can barely contain his excitement.

The long-time TSN broadcaster and former CFL All-Star safety with the Saskatchewan Roughriders joined guest host Michael Ball on The SportsCage Thursday and practically gushed about the new piece of legislation.

“Let me go over some numbers on what this could mean. Right now, there are 20 states in the US where you can gamble legally,” Suitor explained. “That is just legal gambling because the illegal gambling, the gambling that goes offshore, in Canada alone I believe it was Conservative MP Michael Kram when he was talking to the House of Commons that mentioned that there is around $14 billion dollars a year being bet illegally and offshore.”

“Now you might not get all of that back, but if betting becomes legal in our provinces and you can work out deals with the CFL, the states that allowed gambling generated $444 million in bets [just for the Super Bowl]. That created $42 million in revenue for these states.”

That type of monetary infusion over the course of a season could be a game-changer for the CFL.

“I don’t know the minutiae of a deal like this, but if you just had a deal where 10% of that money went back to the Canadian Football League in some way, gambling within the stadiums or that kind of thing, you are talking about another $4 million dollars a year in revenue,” Suitor said.


Randy Ambrosie agree with the veteran broadcaster. The CFL commissioner signed a joint statement last June with four major pro sports leagues that operate in Canada to urge the government to take ‘prompt action’ and legalize single-game sports betting.

That began to come to fruition Tuesday when Bill C-218, a private member’s bill tabled by Saskatoon-Grasswood MP and Riders fan Kevin Waugh, passed its second reading in the House. Fellow Riders fan and Regina-Wascana MP Michael Kram called it a bill that could ‘save’ the CFL in an impassioned speech before the vote.

While legal gambling would give the CFL a massive boost, Suitor says they won’t be the lone beneficiary.

“The news today on Bill C-218, the revenues that are possible from that bill being voted in alone could change the complete financial landscape in a positive way for the Canadian Football League. That’s good for CFL and CFL fans for sure, but there is also a trickle down effect that goes to infrastructure and amateur sports,” Suitor said.

“Now when you’re making money at the pro level in Saskatchewan, the 50/50 is much bigger than just the 50/50 at a game. It becomes a percentage of money from gambling on the game goes to amateur football infrastructure in the province and funding flag football leagues and women’s football and all of the great ideas that a lot of people have.”

Fans and media have criticized the CFL for a lack of youth outreach and their dwindling presence in minor football in recent years. It’s the size of the financial contribution that Suitor believes is is holding them back.

“The finances just aren’t in place to do it correctly,” Suitor admits. “Right now there are thousand, literally thousands of amateur football players in our country that aren’t going to CFL games. That is the low hanging fruit that needs to be addressed, but some of the initiatives you talk about take money.”

The solution? I bet you already know the answer.

“How do you get that extra revenue? Well, Bill C-218 might go a long way to doing that.”
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #167  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2021, 2:51 AM
thurmas's Avatar
thurmas thurmas is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Winnipeg, MB
Posts: 7,595
Randy Ambrosie believes the CFL has done more work on its business plan ‘than the league has done in 50 years’

https://3downnation.com/2021/02/20/r...e-in-50-years/

Commissioner Randy Ambrosie has stated multiple times since the 2020 season was cancelled that the CFL wanted to reset its business model.

“We’ve done more work on that than the league has done in 50 years. We’re going to make substantial improvements to our business model starting this year and running through years to come,” Ambrosie said on The Green Zone.

Ambrosie has done it by cutting nearly half the staff at the league office, lowering the football operations cap, and the directing each franchise to spend to the salary cap floor for the 2021 season, reducing player compensation.

Sources have told Dan Ralph of the Canadian Press that the year long absence has cost the three-down league somewhere between $60 and $80 million dollars, though the CFL has not yet unveiled its official financial results.

The decision to cancel last season came after the federal government refused support for a $30 million interest-free loan to fund a hub city in Winnipeg. The league’s precarious financial position might require government support once again. Unlike 2020 however, the CFL won’t leave it all up to a hand out.

“Right now, June 10 we will kick-off, that’s our plan. We’re looking at every possible scenario that we can be flexible if necessary to make a season happen,” Ambrosie said.

“We want to play, we want to get our players out on the field. We’re hoping the vaccine roll outs begin to accelerate because there’s nothing like a CFL game with fans — but right now I’m just feeding off the energy from our board of governors.”

The massive losses have the CFL trying to find a way to play in 2021 and put fans in the stands to return their primary source of revenue. The CFL unveiled its 2021 schedule back in November. The pre-season is scheduled to begin on Sunday, May 23, while the regular season is slated to get underway on Thursday, June 10.

“Is it possible that there’s a few weeks of the season where we maybe don’t have fans? That’s a scenario that we’re talking about and then maybe after that governments will start to allow larger gatherings and we get 25-30 per cent of our stadiums filling up,” Ambrosie said.

“We’re talking about playing in our stadiums, we’re talking about playing in our stadiums with a smaller group of fans and then we’re hoping that as the season goes along, people are vaccinated and they are desperately wanting CFL football.”

With as many questions facing the league now as there were a year ago and some anonymous sources drawing ire for suggesting a 2021 season may not be plausible, Ambrosie insists there is only one possible outcome for the CFL.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #168  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2021, 4:21 PM
thurmas's Avatar
thurmas thurmas is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Winnipeg, MB
Posts: 7,595
How the CFL could embrace legal single-event sports betting

https://3downnation.com/2021/02/21/h...ports-betting/

The CFL is a gate-driven league.

That may change over time as the league looks to diversify its revenue streams, but getting more fans to buy tickets to games is a great way to bolster short-term income.

A new bill led by MP Kevin Waugh could soon legalize single-event sports betting in Canada, which could revolutionize how people consume the CFL. MP Michael Kram even believes it has the opportunity to save the league.

A great way to entice more young fans to buy tickets is by offering exclusive in-stadium betting opportunities. By providing the chance to gamble on exclusive lines, prop bets or prizes, young bettors would be more likely to purchase a ticket instead of watching the game on television.

Millennials spend a lot of time at live sporting events on their phones. Why not take advantage of that by providing fun, interactive gambling opportunities for a unique in-stadium experience?

Imagine having the opportunity to pick a spread and compete exclusively against people in your row or your section of the stadium? A winner could be announced at the end of the game, along with a handsome cash prize. It would be like a fifty-fifty draw, but more fun, more interactive, and with an element of skill involved.

The in-person element of gambling also opens the door for a variety of different prizes. What if you could bet and win a new jersey or an autographed football? Or what if winning a bet meant getting a free beer for every person sitting in your row? Successful bettors would be lauded as heroes!

Teams could even have a corporate partner agree to match deposits for bettors who purchase tickets to games. Many companies already match deposits for newcomers, but this could be increased or enhanced for bettors who have purchased a ticket to attend a live game.

This is an opportunity to kill two birds with one stone — the league could increase gambling revenue and attract younger fans to purchase tickets to games at the same time. That’s a big win-win.

This shift won’t come without some changes from the CFL’s football operations practices.

The NFL — a sports betting juggernaut — provides daily league-wide updates regarding the nature of player injuries, the extent to which each individual participated in practice, and the likelihood of those players dressing for an upcoming game.

The current Personnel (Injury) Report Policy was adopted in 2017 and threatens “a fine on the involved club, fines or suspensions of involved individuals, as well as the possible forfeiture of draft choices by the involved club” if the requirements are not met. The NFL states that providing accurate injury reports is of “paramount importance in maintaining the integrity of the game.”

In the CFL, no such policy exists. Coaches are free to disclose as much or as little information regarding player injuries as they desire, while teams have been known to fudge depth charts in an attempt to gain a competitive advantage.

If single-event sports betting is to become a major source of revenue for the CFL, this has to stop. The NFL knows that betting and fantasy sports are a huge vehicle for fan interest. Without knowing the status of player injuries or having access to accurate team depth charts, bettors will be far less likely to wager on CFL games.

If the league can successfully implement a personnel policy while embracing legalized single-event sports gambling in a creative, engaging way, then the sky is the limit for the Canadian Football League once it returns to the field.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #169  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2021, 2:29 PM
TimB09 TimB09 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 1,447
I'm not a huge gambler but I will definitely be betting more on CFL games if it helps the league revenue-wise in any way.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #170  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2021, 3:19 PM
jonny24 jonny24 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Hamilton, formerly Norfolk County
Posts: 1,142
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimB09 View Post
I'm not a huge gambler but I will definitely be betting more on CFL games if it helps the league revenue-wise in any way.
As big a of a CFL fan I am, I'm not interested in it at all. I'll happily buy merch, tickets, and concessions to support them, but I don't see my enjoyment of watching sports being improved by tying money to the results.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #171  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2021, 3:30 PM
esquire's Avatar
esquire esquire is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 37,483
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonny24 View Post
As big a of a CFL fan I am, I'm not interested in it at all. I'll happily buy merch, tickets, and concessions to support them, but I don't see my enjoyment of watching sports being improved by tying money to the results.
I'm in the same boat, I find watching my favourite teams play enjoyable enough. But apparently there are many who just love throwing money down on the outcomes, and Sport Select doesn't quite scratch the itch?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #172  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2021, 2:58 AM
thurmas's Avatar
thurmas thurmas is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Winnipeg, MB
Posts: 7,595
CFL, players’ association putting final touches on league’s return to play protocols

https://3downnation.com/2021/02/23/c...lay-protocols/

The CFL league office and players’ association are about to submit their joint return to play documents to provincial governments.

TSN’s Dave Naylor reports the paperwork is being finalized.

The CFL and CFLPA are putting final touches on the league’s return-to-play protocol for staging games in 2021. (Does not address the issue of fan attendance, which will be dealt with separately.) RTP protocol will be rolled-out to provinces for approval in the near future.

The CFL unveiled its 2021 schedule back in November with the pre-season scheduled to begin on Sunday, May 23, while the regular season is slated to get underway on Thursday, June 10. The CFL and union began meetings during the second week of February regarding the development of a return-to-play plan for the 2021 season.

“We’re going to play a full season. But we’re also going to have the ability to be flexible and that’s the other side of this. You have to be adaptable and flexible according to whatever circumstances come our way,” commissioner Randy Ambrosie told Postmedia’s Dan Barnes.

“So we are full throttle on our plans for a full season but every element of every dimension of the plan is being reviewed through the lens of how will we be able to adapt to the circumstances that we find at the time when decisions need to be made.”

While the NHL received the go-ahead from the Public Health Agency of Canada for teams to play in their home arenas, the same guidelines weren’t yet been requested by the CFL in January. That was according to an exclusive statement obtained by 3DownNation insider Justin Dunk.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #173  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2021, 3:57 AM
VANRIDERFAN's Avatar
VANRIDERFAN VANRIDERFAN is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Regina
Posts: 5,149
Quote:
Originally Posted by thurmas View Post
CFL, players’ association putting final touches on league’s return to play protocols

https://3downnation.com/2021/02/23/c...lay-protocols/

The CFL league office and players’ association are about to submit their joint return to play documents to provincial governments.

TSN’s Dave Naylor reports the paperwork is being finalized.

The CFL and CFLPA are putting final touches on the league’s return-to-play protocol for staging games in 2021. (Does not address the issue of fan attendance, which will be dealt with separately.) RTP protocol will be rolled-out to provinces for approval in the near future.

The CFL unveiled its 2021 schedule back in November with the pre-season scheduled to begin on Sunday, May 23, while the regular season is slated to get underway on Thursday, June 10. The CFL and union began meetings during the second week of February regarding the development of a return-to-play plan for the 2021 season.

“We’re going to play a full season. But we’re also going to have the ability to be flexible and that’s the other side of this. You have to be adaptable and flexible according to whatever circumstances come our way,” commissioner Randy Ambrosie told Postmedia’s Dan Barnes.

“So we are full throttle on our plans for a full season but every element of every dimension of the plan is being reviewed through the lens of how will we be able to adapt to the circumstances that we find at the time when decisions need to be made.”

While the NHL received the go-ahead from the Public Health Agency of Canada for teams to play in their home arenas, the same guidelines weren’t yet been requested by the CFL in January. That was according to an exclusive statement obtained by 3DownNation insider Justin Dunk.
Watched Rod Pedersen's show last night (it comes on a 8pm here in the ME) and he seemed very skeptical that the CFL will play this year.
But then he is just going on the information he's been getting from Dave Naylor who seems to be the spokesperson for the League (via TSN). I remain hopeful that I'll see CFL/USports football when I get home.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #174  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2021, 2:24 PM
esquire's Avatar
esquire esquire is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 37,483
I can't remember if this has been posted here before, but for anyone who misses the CFL here is a bit of nostalgia in the form of a 10 minute NFB film that looks at the 1967 Grey Cup in Ottawa... Oskee Wee Wee

https://www.nfb.ca/film/oskee_wee_wee/

Quote:
This documentary is a zany portrait of the particular fever that hits the city of Ottawa, Ontario, during Grey Cup finals. The film is as much about the football game, where the Hamilton Tiger Cats face the Saskatchewan Roughriders, as it is about Ti-Cats fans and their infamous "Oskee Wee Wee", the magic chant with which they exhort their team to victory.
It's impressive in part because of the clarity of the film... unlike the usual fuzzy, grainy footage you typically see from the 60s, everything here is clear as day and it looks like it could have been filmed last year. It's cool to see a mostly-new Lansdowne Park in Ottawa, and a young-looking Ron Lancaster and George Reed in their prime.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #175  
Old Posted Feb 26, 2021, 11:12 PM
jonny24 jonny24 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Hamilton, formerly Norfolk County
Posts: 1,142
Quote:
Originally Posted by esquire View Post
I can't remember if this has been posted here before, but for anyone who misses the CFL here is a bit of nostalgia in the form of a 10 minute NFB film that looks at the 1967 Grey Cup in Ottawa... Oskee Wee Wee

https://www.nfb.ca/film/oskee_wee_wee/



It's impressive in part because of the clarity of the film... unlike the usual fuzzy, grainy footage you typically see from the 60s, everything here is clear as day and it looks like it could have been filmed last year. It's cool to see a mostly-new Lansdowne Park in Ottawa, and a young-looking Ron Lancaster and George Reed in their prime.
Thanks for posting! It really captured the whole atmosphere
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #176  
Old Posted Feb 27, 2021, 2:13 AM
ScreamingViking's Avatar
ScreamingViking ScreamingViking is offline
Ham-burgher
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Hamilton
Posts: 6,466
Quote:
Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN View Post
he seemed very skeptical that the CFL will play this year.
I worry for the CFL. Their 'catch-22' is unfortunate... another year of multi-million dollar losses and I fear most owners will pull the plug.

It could open up an opportunity for something else of a similar vein (perhaps more akin to rugby?) modelled more on how the CPL works, but it will not be the same to me. Too soon to call, I know.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #177  
Old Posted Feb 27, 2021, 3:52 AM
Coldrsx's Avatar
Coldrsx Coldrsx is offline
Community Guy
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Canmore, AB
Posts: 66,669
The owners are the least of my concerns right now; how relevant is this league anymore and who are the next generation of fans?

I'm going to relish every minute of whatever comes next...
__________________
"The destructive effects of automobiles are much less a cause than a symptom of our incompetence at city building" - Jane Jacobs 1961ish

Wake me up when I can see skyscrapers
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #178  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2021, 6:12 PM
TimB09 TimB09 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 1,447
Dave Naylor and Rod Pedersen know about as much as you and I do when it comes to the CFL right now. They are speculating and getting their info from "sources".

With vaccines coming sooner now, I have a feeling we see a season for sure. Maybe not in May/June but I have a feeling things get going in August.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #179  
Old Posted Mar 1, 2021, 7:49 PM
esquire's Avatar
esquire esquire is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 37,483
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldrsx View Post
The owners are the least of my concerns right now; how relevant is this league anymore and who are the next generation of fans?
How 'relevant' is any group of men or women who play a game for money? (i.e., pro sports in general)

The answer: it's as relevant as you want it to be.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #180  
Old Posted Mar 2, 2021, 3:26 PM
Acajack's Avatar
Acajack Acajack is offline
Unapologetic Occidental
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Province 2, Canadian Empire
Posts: 67,773
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldrsx View Post
The owners are the least of my concerns right now; how relevant is this league anymore and who are the next generation of fans?

I'm going to relish every minute of whatever comes next...
I won't weep for the owners, but they are very relevant if only because someone needs to own the teams and front the cash so the league can operate with 9 clubs.
__________________
Amber alerts welcome at any time
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 9:29 AM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.