Bank Street Subway | Fantasy

[J.OT13]

I agree in part. Transitways can be built for a few hundred million, so I would support Baseline, Kanata North and Cumberland be built sooner rather than later. I would want Line 4 to be prioritized as the next big rail build after Stage 3 (as Stage 4 and Stage 5). Line 6 could probably be built for relatively cheap (somewhere between Transitways and grade separated O-Train in terms of cost) before Carling, but after Line 4 and the Transitways.

The entire network as you presented with a 2060 goal could be feasible considering we will have built about half of the rail portion within 15 years.

[Clinton Desveaux]

Originally Posted by Sauvanto

Hey all! Concerning this subject, I thought I would share my most recent map of what I would still consider a "reasonable" fantasy rapid transit map for Ottawa - Gatineau. This includes the Bank Street tunnel; along with a Vanier and Carling extension. I would imagine the Carling and Vanier extensions could either be tunneled or elevated. I have also added the Transitway projects studied and awaiting funding, along with Phase 3 of Line 1 and 3. Finally, I tossed a mix of all the Gatineau tramway-projects (at-grade and perhaps tunneled).
https://www.reddit.com/r/ottawa/comm..._map_v51_dark/

Your work is very impressive and you have caught the imagination of people who live and work in the Bank Street core of the city and Ottawa South communities. Everyone I've spoken with and interviewed from businesses, schools, residents, workers - all are so impressed with your work. You may not realize it, but you have inspired a lot of people.

[Clinton Desveaux]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Love it. Truly a transit plan to aspire to in the next few decades.

Considering how much we've built to serve the suburbs, I can't understand the opposition to a relatively short urban subway route (eventually, not now) to serve the denser parts of the city and relieve the existing suburban-centric lines, AND provide direct airport-downtown service.

For sure, Rideau-Montreal is probably more pressing. Bank could come later. Bus lanes on Carling will likely suffice for a few decades. Carling could easily have a high quality Vancouver B-Line type service.

Actually the opposition to your ideas is almost non-existent. Everyone from Ottawa U, Carleton, Algonquin, OSEG, media people, culture leaders, politicians from city, province, and federal both current and past generally agree with you. I've been recording interviews with a cross section of Ottawans and more people everyday are on your side. The opposition appears to come from a small group of online individuals. I have another article coming out this week on the topic. People have a lot of interesting things they want to share about the idea.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Step 1 - buy paint
Step 2 - paint diamonds on the curb lane from billing’s to Gladstone.
Step 3 - replace P signs with “no stopping” signs
Step 4 - run buses more frequently

This does not address the number of signaled intersections.

And if we ban right and left turns, this will make access to both businesses and residences much more difficult.

In any event, efforts to speed up traffic on Bank (which will apply to both transit and general traffic) just turns it into another Bronson traffic sewer, which will make it much less pedestrian friendly. In the long-run, is this really desirable?

[lrt's friend]

We better be careful in how we specify density requirements for transit. There is a big difference between local transit and trunk line transit, which gets much of its ridership from bus transfers.

If we apply the same density metrics, the Confederation Line will not meet the minimum requirements except downtown.

[Nowhere]

The Broadway subway in Vancouver isn't a fair comparison to Bank. Even if both areas have similar densities, Bank doesn't lead to a major University like Broadway does.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

This does not address the number of signaled intersections.

And if we ban right and left turns, this will make access to both businesses and residences much more difficult.

In any event, efforts to speed up traffic on Bank (which will apply to both transit and general traffic) just turns it into another Bronson traffic sewer, which will make it much less pedestrian friendly. In the long-run, is this really desirable?

Bus lanes are a fairly common thing implemented in cities all over the world. People on here are acting as if they are some new-fangled invention. Yeah, of course bus lanes are not as good as a subway, but they are also billions cheaper and don't require shutting down a commercial street for years (probably at least 5) during the construction process.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

We better be careful in how we specify density requirements for transit. There is a big difference between local transit and trunk line transit, which gets much of its ridership from bus transfers.

If we apply the same density metrics, the Confederation Line will not meet the minimum requirements except downtown.

I would consider this a perfectly reasonable argument if there were no existing N-S transit infrastructure in Ottawa and the city was considering what to do for its first project, where a Bank subway might be one of the options (along with probably the riverside corridor, the Bronson/Parkway corridor, maybe even the canal corridor).

The problem with this reasoning is there are already two N-S corridors. Neither are ideal, and they both have certain limitations (including requiring a transfer to downtown) but both have received hundreds of millions in investment.

It is also not particularly obvious why transferring to a Bank Street subway is a better option for South End users than transferring to the Confederation Line. Trillium/Confederation or Bus/Confederation hit a lot more significant drivers of ridership (including both universities, the Rideau Centre, etc.) than Bank. Timing would be a difference of a few minutes max.

[acottawa]

The thing is, Ottawa has never treated Bank like an important street. It has no transportation facilities, no major shopping malls, no museums, no post-secondary institutions. The only thing it has on it at all is the old agriculture fairgrounds, where the city keeps dumping money for b-list attractions. But that in itself can't drive ridership for a subway.

You could easily imagine an alternate history of Ottawa where the Greber plan had foreseen an important role for Bank and it was an obvious place to put a subay, but that never happened.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Nowhere

The Broadway subway in Vancouver isn't a fair comparison to Bank. Even if both areas have similar densities, Bank doesn't lead to a major University like Broadway does.

Not a perfect comparison, but it leads to the airport, a major sport and entertainment district, and downtown.

[DarkArconio]

The number one reason Broadway in Vancouver is a bad comparison (and why a Bank st subway will remain a fantasy for the coming decades) is that Broadway has the busiest bus in the whole Vancouver metro area. How do the 6 & 7 compare?

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I would consider this a perfectly reasonable argument if there were no existing N-S transit infrastructure in Ottawa and the city was considering what to do for its first project, where a Bank subway might be one of the options (along with probably the riverside corridor, the Bronson/Parkway corridor, maybe even the canal corridor).

The problem with this reasoning is there are already two N-S corridors. Neither are ideal, and they both have certain limitations (including requiring a transfer to downtown) but both have received hundreds of millions in investment.

It is also not particularly obvious why transferring to a Bank Street subway is a better option for South End users than transferring to the Confederation Line. Trillium/Confederation or Bus/Confederation hit a lot more significant drivers of ridership (including both universities, the Rideau Centre, etc.) than Bank. Timing would be a difference of a few minutes max.

We all know why a Bank subway was never considered in the past and why it is currently not on a priority list. It is cost. As Ottawa developed its rapid transit plan, it used old railway corridors, the best one leading from old Union Station to Hurdman. It was the easiest build yet Hurdman is the deadest location close to downtown because it is a serious brownfield site from old railway junctions and garbage dumps. The second one also followed an old railway line that thankfully served a university otherwise it would be a real dud.

We really haven't invested a whole lot on a N-S route and what we are investing now, which is the most we have ever invested, really doesn't address the inner parts of the route. Most of the investment is to cross the Greenbelt, something that would be needed regardless of the more inner routing.

My comment is that both current routes are indirect, require a transfer and in the future, more and more often two transfers. That is the problem. Transfers are where you lose time the most. I would say that a Bank Street route would save 5 minutes for a trip downtown just because it is more direct, but for those saving a transfer, you can at least double that saving. Considering that the Confederation Line has not saved any time for the average user, that would be an amazing result.

And finally, a Bank Street route would finally serve the urban fabric of the city, something the Confederation Line does not do a good job at. When you look at other cities that really embrace urbanism, rapid transit does use urban corridors. Considering that Ottawa has intensification plans for many sections of Bank Street, there is something seriously missing when those plans do not really include transit, something key to driving intensification.

It should be no surprise that cities that have major public attractions in the downtown area, have multiple transit lines going right downtown, instead of terminating in the periphery. And we see places like Toronto that transit has driven the development of those attractions. Meanwhile, downtown Ottawa cannot even support a downtown cinema.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by DarkArconio

The number one reason Broadway in Vancouver is a bad comparison (and why a Bank st subway will remain a fantasy for the coming decades) is that Broadway has the busiest bus in the whole Vancouver metro area. How do the 6 & 7 compare?

We direct most transit ridership around Bank Street by design. There is no alternative in the case of Broadway. Wisely, Vancouver is finally going to build rapid transit in a straight line even though it is going to cost a pile of money.

[OTSkyline]

Although some complain that Bank St doesn't currently have the density required for a subway, I would argue that it most certainly has the POTENTIAL for density. I could easily see Bank St being the Young St of Ottawa with several high density nodes along the way..

CBD
Billings Bridge
Bank/Walkley + Heron not far away
South Keys/Greenboro
etc..

[TheMatth69]

Originally Posted by Williamoforange

As for Mathews numbers, there based on bad math and bad assumptions, 15 minute frequency bus service. 4 buses/hour X ~120/Articulated bus = 480, so its only ~1,000 and that assumes the buses are full to the brim. As for using Confed growth numbers and applying them to bank well there a multiply factor difference in user base, 4 suburbs vs 1 Ottawa south

As for the "planned" corridor, from what I can tell on a "per unit" basis, it falls well within just bus service. If you go by people its going towards very frequent bus service.

My numbers were based on a rush hour basis. Route 6 and 7 both have 15min frequency on rush hour so that's a minimum of 8 buses per hour per direction. Considering those routes often have additional trips we can go up to 10 buses along the corridor ... so my number of ~2000 is pretty decent.
And if you've ever taken the bus during rush hour on Bank street ... You know these buses can get jammed pack to the point people have to wait for the next one (been there done that).

[Williamoforange]

Originally Posted by TheMatth69

My numbers were based on a rush hour basis. Route 6 and 7 both have 15min frequency on rush hour so that's a minimum of 8 buses per hour per direction. Considering those routes often have additional trips we can go up to 10 buses along the corridor ... so my number of ~2000 is pretty decent.
And if you've ever taken the bus during rush hour on Bank street ... You know these buses can get jammed pack to the point people have to wait for the next one (been there done that).

If your number is for total in both direction then yes, but on a per hour per discussion basis is ~1000 pphpd in total.

Also that number is based around solely using articulated buses. Drops to ~664 pphpd in total of your solely using 40" buses.

Again it takes 4 suburbs and more feeding that line to get that total, yet here we are taking about a single main Street being getting a subway in the coming decades.

Yes sometime in the future bank will need a transit upgrade but if the advocates are dead set on a subway then you'll be waiting a very very long time. All the while the more realistic projects get funding and are built.

[Hybrid247]

Originally Posted by Williamoforange

If your number is for total in both direction then yes, but on a per hour per discussion basis is ~1000 pphpd in total.

Also that number is based around solely using articulated buses. Drops to ~664 pphpd in total of your solely using 40" buses.

Again it takes 4 suburbs and more feeding that line to get that total, yet here we are taking about a single main Street being getting a subway in the coming decades.

Yes sometime in the future bank will need a transit upgrade but if the advocates are dead set on a subway then you'll be waiting a very very long time. All the while the more realistic projects get funding and are built.

Well calgary at 1.5 million people is now looking to build its 3rd major LRT line, including a tunnel through downtown, that is only anticipated to have 60-70k daily ridership upon opening. Not to mention that the southeast area of the city the line will serve only accounts for about 187k population, which shouldn't be far off from what the Bank line would be serving south of the rideau river.

According to growth projections, ottawa should be reaching a population of 1.43 million on the ontario side by 2046, so I don't see why it seems like such an outlandish idea that we may be looking to build a new line by then.

[GeoNerd]

Originally Posted by Hybrid247

Well calgary at 1.5 million people is now looking to build its 3rd major LRT line.....According to growth projections, ottawa should be reaching a population of 1.43 million on the ontario side by 2046, so I don't see why it seems like such an outlandish idea that we may be looking to build a new line by then.

You're comparing the greater Calgary metropolitan area population stats, to the city of Ottawa proper. You need to compare apples to apples. It's not just residents within the city proper that use our transit system. Metro Calgary and Metro Ottawa are virtually the same population. One could argue that with the economic downfall in Alberta, the massive job loss that was occurring even pre-pandemic, and recent population growth statistics, Ottawa may likely surpass Calgary again in population within the near future.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Hybrid247

According to growth projections, ottawa should be reaching a population of 1.43 million on the ontario side by 2046, so I don't see why it seems like such an outlandish idea that we may be looking to build a new line by then.

The Ottawa-Gatineau CMA will have three rail lines by 2046: Trillium, Confederation and Gatineau. Heck, may end up with two Gatineau LRT lines by then.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by OTSkyline

Although some complain that Bank St doesn't currently have the density required for a subway, I would argue that it most certainly has the POTENTIAL for density. I could easily see Bank St being the Young St of Ottawa with several high density nodes along the way..

CBD
Billings Bridge
Bank/Walkley + Heron not far away
South Keys/Greenboro
etc..

I don’t think the CBD needs a Bank subway for much. But otherwise I think that is a sensible idea. If a consortium comes forward with a plan to build the 50-60 high rise buildings necessary to get an urban density along the corridor then I think a 2-3 billion investment might be justified to generate tens of billions in investment.

But given the expected population growth rate and pace of filling out available TOD sites along the Confederation Line, I am kind of doubtful there would be sufficient demand in a reasonable planning horizon.