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  #21  
Old Posted May 20, 2008, 1:39 AM
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yeah, 170 miles is at least a good 3.5 hours.
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  #22  
Old Posted May 20, 2008, 7:19 AM
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ooops, totally miscalculated it.

170 miles / 75 mph = 2.26, which is 2 and a half hours.
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  #23  
Old Posted May 20, 2008, 9:10 AM
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damn the mob from keeping 81 out of Utica. (attributed to its decline)
Indeed, the Mob did unspeakable damage state wide. The distruction done to Buffalo is of course legendary if you were around in the 50's and 60's. Still, I'm not convinced that its too late. There is enough traffic to sustain the existing Albany to NYC connection. A hook up through Utica works on several levels. Building a road to NYC from Utica would put hundreds if not thousands back to work. The shot in the arm to the State economy would be enormous and balance out the costs. I seem to remember Obama saying on several occations, that he'd invest in the infrastructure after bringing The Iraq fiasco to an end, building "much needed new roads" ex. If we are going to save Upstate, and the nation for that matter, folks are going to have to join this Republican in telling the GOP to take a hike this go round. HOPE!
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  #24  
Old Posted May 21, 2008, 4:30 AM
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Honestly, Upstaters need to embrace having a world city as their own, after all, we are paying for things there that come out of our taxes. Not to mention, it goes both ways, we both scratch eachothers backs.

Upstate suffers from the "one-way" connection to NYC. If there were routes through or even around the Catskills closer to the NJ/PA border it would indeed help, such as a new interstate, perhaps through Utica or Syracuse, helping points west.

The only roadblock really is a damn mountain range, and small one at that.
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  #25  
Old Posted May 21, 2008, 8:42 AM
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Honestly, Upstaters need to embrace having a world city as their own, after all, we are paying for things there that come out of our taxes. Not to mention, it goes both ways, we both scratch eachothers backs.

Upstate suffers from the "one-way" connection to NYC. If there were routes through or even around the Catskills closer to the NJ/PA border it would indeed help, such as a new interstate, perhaps through Utica or Syracuse, helping points west.

The only roadblock really is a damn mountain range, and small one at that.
The Thruway was not built with $4. $5. and $12 a gallon in mind. As useage goes down, state officials will have no choice but to cut distance where they can. Count on continued litigation from the Seneca Nation though. Things could be tied up for a Long Time!

From Wikipedia,

"On April 18, 2007, the Seneca Nation laid claim to a stretch of Interstate 90 that crosses the Cattaraugus Reservation by revoking the 1954 agreement that granted the Interstate Highway System and New York State Thruway Authority permission to build the highway through the territory. The move was a direct shot at New York Governor Eliot Spitzer's attempts to collect taxes on Seneca territory".
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  #26  
Old Posted May 22, 2008, 3:56 AM
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Thats nowhere near the Catskills though.
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  #27  
Old Posted May 22, 2008, 1:31 PM
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a new route providing a shortcut to utica and points west to new york would cost untold tens of billions and i doubt NYS or the feds would justify pouring that kind of cash into a stagnant region.
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  #28  
Old Posted May 22, 2008, 7:56 PM
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obviously
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  #29  
Old Posted May 22, 2008, 7:56 PM
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this should have been done when Utica wasn't a third world city
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  #30  
Old Posted May 25, 2008, 9:51 AM
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Good points, but the statis que won't work. An obvious place to start is going to have to be revamping the state tax system. Nobody wants to deal with that but people can't pay higher gas, food, and everything else, then pay ungodly high taxes as well. Thats the starting point.
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  #31  
Old Posted May 29, 2008, 11:38 PM
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More wonderful news from the shithole that is Utica, NY.


FX Matts caught on fire today around 5pm, literally minutes before Saranac Thursday started.

Canning/Bottling part of the brewery is gone, and so is life in Utica. If people can't drink here, what the fuck else they gonna do?

Time to stock up on Saranac and UC.
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  #32  
Old Posted May 29, 2008, 11:40 PM
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  #33  
Old Posted May 30, 2008, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by NYRY85 View Post
More wonderful news from the shithole that is Utica, NY.


FX Matts caught on fire today around 5pm, literally minutes before Saranac Thursday started.

Canning/Bottling part of the brewery is gone, and so is life in Utica. If people can't drink here, what the fuck else they gonna do?

Time to stock up on Saranac and UC.
OH NO! What? No Utica Club? In The 60s, Utica was one of the great (Drunk) Beer Drinking towns of North America! Still gotta be!

No Shultz and Dooly "Stein~Guyz"


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  #34  
Old Posted May 30, 2008, 12:28 PM
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Sorry, I couldn't resist.
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  #35  
Old Posted May 30, 2008, 2:48 PM
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they'll rebuild.
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  #36  
Old Posted Jun 2, 2008, 4:18 PM
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With the price of gas, maybe buying a couple of mules and some mule food will be a good investment if the canal gets back to it's glory days of commerce.


Dick Powell guides his canal boat into Lock 2 of the Erie Canal in Waterford, N.Y., on May 13. The canal was an engineering marvel that brought tremendous wealth to New York and opened up the North American interior, helping turn the United States into an international commercial powerhouse in the 19th century. Today, managers of the storied Erie Canal are pouring tens of millions of dollars of public money into it each year as they struggle to transform the once vital freight route into a tourist destination. (The Associated Press)



Erie Canal: Tourist draw or tax drain?
Lawmakers debate value of historic passageway
By Richard Richtmyer • The Associated Press • May 31, 2008

ALBANY — It was an engineering marvel that brought tremendous wealth to New York and opened up the North American interior, helping turn the United States into an international commercial powerhouse in the 19th century.


Today, managers of the storied Erie Canal are pouring tens of millions of dollars of public money into it each year as they struggle to transform the once vital freight route into a tourist destination.

The spending, and the state's decision to subsidize the canal with toll money collected from drivers on its main highway, has ignited debate about the canal's future — a topic that repeatedly has been the subject of controversy through its 200-year history.

Advocates say the Erie — and New York's three smaller canals — are historical treasures that are essential to the state's economy and worthy of public investment.

Opponents counter that the canal system, which includes Cayuga Lake, is no longer a critical part of the state's transportation network and the money would be better spent elsewhere, especially as the state faces crushing deficits in the coming years.

“The canal is not going to be the panacea for New York, but it is part of the equation for the Upstate economy,” said Carmella Mantello, director of the New York State Canal Corp., the agency that manages the state's canal system.

A conduit for industry
Conceived in 1808 and completed in 1825, the Erie Canal linked the waters of the Great Lakes in the west to the Hudson River in the east. It created the first cost-efficient route from the nation's interior to the Atlantic Ocean and opened overseas markets to Midwest resources and farm products.

New York City soon became one of the country's busiest ports and the canal spurred development of major Upstate cities including Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse and Albany, whose proximity attracted industry. Dozens of smaller industrial hubs also sprouted along its banks.

There were two major upgrades — one completed in 1862 and the other in 1918 — to accommodate heavier traffic and larger vessels. But the rise of the railroads in late 1800s and the advent of the interstate highway system in the 1950s plucked the vast majority of freight off the canal.

In 1949, 3.9 million tons of freight plied the waters of New York's canals. Last year, it was just more than 13,000 tons, according to Canal Corp. figures.

A pathway for tourism
For more than 10 years, state officials have been trying to reinvent the canal, marketing it as a tourist attraction and keeping its locks — most of which still use equipment installed in the early 1900s — operating.

The aim is to lure pleasure boaters to spend their money in the communities along the canal, many of which have suffered a decades-long economic slump following the decline of the region's once thriving manufacturing industry.

Mantello says the canal agency has spent $250 million to help those communities fix up waterfront amenities.

Herb Spiegel, who has used the Erie Canal on trips between his home in Ontario, Canada, and Florida eight times in the past 18 years, says the improvements are part of what keeps him coming back.

“On our first trip in 1990, the locks were strictly commercial and it was really rough,” Spiegel said as he prepped for the trip west through the canal at Waterford.

“Some people would buy big bales of hay and tie them to the side of their boats to keep the boat from being swallowed up by the big holes in the canal wall,” he said. “But it has improved considerably. Now there are barbecues, picnic tables, there's tie ups. I can't believe how beautiful it is.”

But state records show that new boaters have been slow in coming. Last year, officials recorded a total of 123,358 recreational lockings — or trips through a lock — on the state's canals. That's down 13 percent from a peak of 141,929 in 1998.

A sluggish economy and higher fuel prices have put a damper on recreational boating nationwide, which Mantello says is part of the reason for the decreased canal traffic. But she insists that public investment in the canal is paying off by attracting more visitors who don't arrive by boat, as well as making it a nicer place for New Yorkers to enjoy.

She and other canal boosters point to a study that found canal tourism contributed about $380 million a year to the state's economy in 2002 — a little more than 1 percent of the total $34.4 billion the Travel Industry Association of America estimates travelers spent in New York that year.

An update of that study is expected to be complete by the end of this year, Mantello said.

Funded by Thruway tolls
Meanwhile, the canals cost about $80 million a year to operate but only take in about $3 million from users. The rest comes from tolls collected from drivers on the New York State Thruway.

The state Legislature in 1992 gave the Thruway Authority, which is funded primarily with toll money, responsibility to operate and maintain the canals, an arrangement that came into question recently when Thruway managers blamed canal costs for a sharp toll hike.

“We all know the history and significance of (the Erie Canal), but it's really no longer a transportation facility,” said David Hartgen, who spent 23 years working for New York's Department of Transportation and recently retired as a professor of transportation studies at the University of North Carolina.

“New York's port is no longer dependent on the river system at all, and you can only really justify public investment going forward, not because something has a history,” he said. “Why should the people of New York subsidize yacht owners?”

That's a question asked more often lately, after state Thruway officials raised tolls on the 641-mile superhighway, much of which runs parallel to the canal route.

Canal managers waived fees for recreational boaters on the canals the past two years. They reinstated them this year. Still, they're nominal compared with what drivers pay.

For instance, a 10-day pass for vessels between 26 and 39 feet long costs $37.50, while an 18-wheeler pays $59.10 to make one trip along the canal route from Albany to Buffalo.

“Obviously it's important to the state for tourism, and we don't want to see anything happen to the canal,” said Kendra Adams, president of the New York State Motor Truck Association. “But we don't think it should be maintained with money from Thruway tolls.”

A budget bill that passed the state Senate included a provision requiring the state Transportation Department and the Thruway Authority to shed the canal, but it wasn't included in the version that passed the full Legislature.

Richard Brodsky — a Queens Democrat who chairs the Assembly Committee on Corporations, Authorities and Commissions — said lawmakers have been “actively debating” what steps to take regarding the canals, but he couldn't provide specifics.

“The money's going to have to come from somewhere,” Brodsky said.

Today's conflicts over the cost and necessity of the Erie Canal are nothing new. In fact, such controversy has surrounded the waterway since it was first proposed in 1808, said Tom Grasso, a canal historian and president of the Canal Society of New York State.

He notes that many thought Gov. DeWitt Clinton was foolish for pursuing the idea of a canal, which they derided as “Clinton's ditch,” and a loud chorus of opposition to an expensive expansion in the late 1800s almost led the state to abandon it altogether.

“The naysayers have never been right in their predictions,” Grasso said. “They just couldn't see its tremendous economic potential.”
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  #37  
Old Posted Jun 5, 2008, 8:58 PM
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Not sure what to make of this news:



Upstate economic czar Gundersen resigns amid turmoil
By JOSEPH SPECTOR • Albany Bureau • June 5, 2008

ALBANY — The state’s upstate economic development leader resigned today amid plans by Gov. David Paterson to likely diminish his role.


Dan Gundersen, commissioner of the Department of Economic Development and as the Chairman of Upstate ESDC, did not indicate where he is headed.

"I want to thank Gov. Paterson for his leadership in working to revitalize the upstate economy by providing $700 million in this year’s budget for new programs," Gundersen said in a statement.

"It has been a privilege to serve first under Gov. (Eliot) Spitzer and then under Gov. Paterson. As I have said before, I agree completely with Gov. Paterson that New York needs to be unified to compete in the world today. Having an organizational structure for ESDC that makes sense is the most effective way to ensure the greatest level of success for both upstate and downstate."

Paterson said last month that he is scrapping the dual-chairmanship structure of the Empire State Development Corp. and will replace it with a single CEO. The former system was put in place last year by then-Gov. Eliot Spitzer to try to focus more attention on the economically struggling region north and west of the Hudson Valley.

Yet upstate leaders warned Paterson not to change Gundersen’s role, saying an upstate economic development chairman is critical to give the region a voice with state leaders and with the business community.

Paterson spent weeks trying to assure upstate business leaders that the region wouldn’t be hurt by a change in the agency’s structure. Yet many leaders still worried that Gundersen’s role would be impacted.

Still, with Spitzer’s resignation in March and Paterson’s plans to revamp the agency, Gundersen’s future seemed tenuous — despite Paterson’s support of him staying in the job. He was paid $187,500 a year.

Now business leaders will have to deal with not having Gundersen, whom they have praised for his work since his hire in early 2007.

"Dan Gundersen has done a great job in focusing the state’s efforts on revitalizing the upstate economy," Paterson said in a statement.. "He logged more than 55,000 miles becoming familiar with the needs of upstate cities and towns, as well as the businesses located there.

"He also created the upstate headquarters of ESDC in Buffalo, putting in place a first-rate staff both in Buffalo and in Upstate’s seven regional offices."
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  #38  
Old Posted Jun 6, 2008, 8:24 PM
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I am not sure if any of you guys have been to Carousel Mall/Destiny but they are marketing Upstate NY as a tourist Destination. Throughout the mall you can see signs and banners for destinations like the Eastman house, Cooperstown, Niagara falls, the Finger lakes Wine region, and so on.

And Destiny is actually In the Middle of Construction on Phase one and they are moving at a pretty good clip. The whole malls looks like one giant Ad for Destiny, its pretty cool to see.
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  #39  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2008, 2:14 AM
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I am not sure if any of you guys have been to Carousel Mall/Destiny but they are marketing Upstate NY as a tourist Destination. Throughout the mall you can see signs and banners for destinations like the Eastman house, Cooperstown, Niagara falls, the Finger lakes Wine region, and so on.

And Destiny is actually In the Middle of Construction on Phase one and they are moving at a pretty good clip. The whole malls looks like one giant Ad for Destiny, its pretty cool to see.
I didn't know that. Last time I went I don't believe I saw anything like that though that was a year ago. Very good idea and generous idea.
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  #40  
Old Posted Jul 6, 2008, 3:00 PM
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Upstate Image vs. Reality

By Chris Churchill, Business Writer
Sunday, July 6, 2008

Listen to talk about the upstate economy, and you'll hear some pretty grim descriptions. You'll hear words like disaster, catastrophe or mess. You might even hear someone mention a "complete collapse."

Politicians are often more colorful: During the most recent gubernatorial campaign, Republican nominee John Faso said upstate New York is "in a death spiral" and "withering on the vine." Eliot Spitzer was just as negative.

"You drive from Schenectady over to Niagara Falls, you see an upstate economy that is devastated," Spitzer said in 2006. "It looks like Appalachia."

The negativity is not unfounded. Parts of upstate New York, as everyone knows, have suffered a decades-long decline marked, most notably, by the erosion of manufacturing jobs. Some areas of the state seem oddly empty, as if aliens snatched half the population.

But upstate New York is a large place, bigger geographically than many states and home to more than seven million people.

And economic statistics can paint a picture of the region that is more positive, or at least more complex, than the widespread perception. In much of upstate, for example, poverty rates are below state or national averages, as are crime rates.

Unemployment rates are often lower, too: Of the 50 upstate counties -- those west and north of Orange and Dutchess -- 21 had May jobless rates below or equal to the national rate of 5.2 percent.

Tompkins County, in central New York, had the state's lowest unemployment rate, at 3.9 percent, while Saratoga County had the third lowest, at 4.4 percent.

So why, then, is the depiction of the upstate economy so universally dark and dreary? Many of those descriptions are widely reported outside of the state, making it seem like New York's greatest export is its own negativity.

"The problem with those kind of statements is that they don't reflect reality," said Randy Wolken, president of the Manufacturers Association of Central New York, a trade group in Syracuse. "It's not all doom and gloom."

Wolken said many of his members are actually doing very well, despite the national economic downturn. But he said they worry negative perceptions about the economy are hurting business.

It isn't an irrational worry. Experts often say that optimism is a critical part of economic decision making. Simply put -- it's good for business. Pessimism has the reverse effect, curbing willingness to invest and spend.

"Pessimism becomes self-fulfilling," said Douglas Lonnstrom, a Siena College professor of finance and statistics. "If you're worried about the future, you stop spending. And therefore the future economy goes down."

Nobody distributes more depressing upstate news than The Business Council of New York State with a Web site that would deflate even the most enthusiastic of upstate boosters. Among other stats, the Business Council frequently notes that upstate wage and job growth are below national averages.

Kenneth Adams, its president, said the council often has internal debates over just how negative its message should be. But the group, Adams said, has decided that honesty is the best policy, and the best way to make it clear to state lawmakers that changes to New York's business climate are needed.

"You have to be honest about the economic data in order to push for change," he said.

Still, Adams agrees that there are big economic differences among upstate regions. He, along with others, said the Capital Region, in particular, has a relatively strong economy.

The Capital Region has been so successful, in fact, that some argue it should no longer be considered upstate -- as if the word upstate is synonymous with economic failure and areas that don't fit the definition should automatically be considered downstate.

Some upstate economic measures used by The Business Council and other groups don't include stats from the Capital Region, on the theory that the area now has more in common with the New York City metro area than the rest of upstate.

But is that fair? Doesn't that skew the statistics? What if, say, the Buffalo area was cut from upstate economic statistics instead?

It's not an entirely ridiculous notion. Economists often see Buffalo's struggles as part of the broad decline of a region that stretches west toward Chicago, suggesting it has more in common with Rust Belt Midwestern cities that upstate areas like the Capital Region or the North Country.

Indeed, of the five large metropolitan areas that lost population from 2000 to 2006, according to a census estimate, four were in that region: Buffalo, Pittsburgh, Cleveland and Detroit. (The fifth, oddly, was the Bay Area of California -- San Francisco, Oakland and San Jose.)

Officials elsewhere in upstate New York are quick to note that Buffalo's troubles don't represent the entire region. And they reject sweeping descriptions of the upstate economy.

Mike Linehan, president of the Yates County Chamber of Commerce, said he is frustrated that all of upstate is lumped together as a broad failure. He was particularly stung by Spitzer's infamous comparison.

"To say that upstate New York looks like Appalachia is so unfair," Linehan said. "As there is in any economy, there are places (upstate) where it's soft, places where it's bad, and places where it's quite good."

Yates County is one of the places where it's good. The rural central New York county has low unemployment and thriving wine and tourism industries. There's a bus manufacturer that can't keep up with demand, and a package maker that's keeping coffee drinks cool across Europe.

It's also a place with great natural beauty and a high quality of life.

That would describe much of upstate, said Rolf Pendall, a professor of urban and regional planning at Cornell University.

Pendall doesn't gloss over the region's economic troubles, but he notes that slow growth has advantages, not the least of which is a relative lack of the faceless sprawling development that mars much of the country.

Pendall said upstate, and the rest of the country, should change how it measures economic success, focusing less on rates of job and population growth and more on making sure jobs are fulfilling.

"If there's one thing we have a surplus of here, it's pessimism," Pendall said. "But seeing the assets we have to build from, regardless of how things are now, is incredibly important."

http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories...sdate=7/6/2008
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